(Note: Tim will be working the summer theater circuit this summer and posting irregularly but not unquirkily. We suggested he write about what a New Yorker feels when displaced to hotel rooms across the USA. We shall see.)
Last fall, I spent $280,000 on the studio apartment I now sit in. I remember telling my mom that I had gotten a great deal on the apartment, which was probably the moment I became a true New Yorker: the ability to spend over a quarter of a million smackers on one room, and actually brag about it.
After recently putting in a $17,000 kitchen, curiosity got the best of me and I invited two real estate agents into my apartment for a “free market evaluation”; I wanted to know what my apartment might be worth now – and if I’d overpaid for my little kitchen.
The first agent arrived and immediately told me that if I chose to sell today, I could probably get $419,000.
How somebody arrives at the figure “$419,000”, I have no idea, but it was music to my ears. It is hard for me to believe that in less than a year my 450 square-foot apartment could have appreciated by $139,000. He also felt that putting in a $17,000 kitchen probably added $40,000 to the property. Weird math, happy owner.
The second agent arrived and asked if I was a decorator. Obviously, he’s a tasteful genius. He priced my apartment at a more modest $390,000, still a huge increase. In New York, he explained, it’s best to underprice a bit, as people will fight over an apartment and outbid each other.
In the end, I am a proud owner who is staying put in a great little apartment, which I try to think of as a one-room luxury hotel suite; the bed is in sight of the oven. But even if I could sell my apartment and live like a king in my native Pittsburgh, I still eat the $2.75 special at Gray’s Papaya three days a week. TF
Comments (33)
TF--
Congrats, and good luck on the road this summer. But don't those appraisals make you want to trade up and start the whole process all over?!?!
Congratulations TF. You had the financial means to buy, you were emotionally ready to buy (buying RE is a very emotional experience), you did not let the bubble talk dissuade you and you came out a winnner.
WRT those prices, what is supposed to happen is that the realtor runs comps or recently sold apts that are similar to yours in the same neighbourhood. I've had appraisal's done for refis's and my neighbour got just such an analysis done by a listing broker when she was looking to sell. The appraisal is more complex but the broker comp works on generally the same lines. Recent sales are lined up and dollar amounts are added or subtracted to those sales prices to compensate for differencs in condition, floor number, square footage etc. to come up with a price for yours.
I have not explained that very well but it doesn't matter because in today's market you can throw all that analysis out of the window because prices are moving too fast (see last Sunday's RE section) and everything is converging on $1000 per sqft now. Actually, what I should say is that every seller thinks thay they can get $1000 per sqft now. Whether they get it or not is a different matter. In generela Coop are cheaper than condos on a per sqft basis owing to their less liquid nature (the dreaded coop board and punitive down payment requirements) so coops should not be commanding $1000 per sqft but apprently, if you look at the listings, condos can.
All this to say that it looks like the whole market is fixated on this magic $1000 per sq ft number no matter the neighbourhood (in Manhattan below the 90's) when just a year ago there were very different $ persqft prices in lots of areas of Manhattan below the 90's. Now it's all homogonized to this high figure which I don't think is healthy because a lot of those areas were priced lower for a reason (long distance to subway, lack of services etc) and, if prices do decline these areas will likely be the first to crater.
So anyway, congrats again, and I hope that explains how these brokers can come up with these magic numbers. It's what they know the market will bear right now.
i heart gray's papaya.
can i ask who helped you re-do your kitchen?
lbh.
Sell it now.........in a few years you will take a loss.
Well...there is a pride associated with ownership, it's more than dollars and cents. (though intially it is the $ that keeps some away)
Most places you buy a place...you can talk the price down (atlest 5 years ago).
NY seems to be the same as the luxery market.
IE; a place goes on the market and a bidding war ensues.
Or so I've noticed...I could be wrong
Silly advice from ae.
I know, don't feed the trolls (and I had hoped bubble talk would not rear its head in any AT threads) but this may be useful to ppl like TF who are sitting on large gains and maybe wondering whether to sell or not.
I know ppl who sold in 2000 and 2001 to rent as a way to "short" the housing market (interestingly they were ibankers so know how financial markets work at least) which is the wrong thing to do (to sell in anticipation of and before any evidence of a downturn) and was certainly wrong for them. The common sense advice in stock investing is "sell too soon" which basically means sell into strength to lock in your gains before the inevtitable sell off which can be quick and severe.
The RE market is very different and the opportunity cost of selling too soon can be tremendous. See this post on mine on CL for an explanation
httpcolon//forums.newyork.craigslist.org/?ID=28091457
Note that jimmy_t who responded to me had done the analysis from this website of historical prices
www.ofheo.gov/HPI.asp and agreed that the data tallied with my thoughts.
BTW, I won't correct all my grammar in my first post but I will say that I meant to say that buying your home (not just RE) is a very emotional experience.
tim, be careful though with those brokers.
they inflate their quotes to juice people like you into selling and drum up more business for themselves. their income depends on churning the market. i'm sure your place has appreciated but I say knock 5-10 percent off your lower appraisal to get a realistic number.
TF. I think you should hold onto and live in the apartment for at least 2 years. That way you won't get hit with capital gains tax up to (I believe) $250,000 in profit--as long as the apartment was your primary residence for a minimum 2 years. Real-estate market willing, you will be able to hold onto more of your profits--tax-free. (Check with your tax guy, but I believe this is still the case.)
I was in a similar situation as you a while back, but my realtor informed me about the situation with capital gains and convinced me to sit it out until at least hitting the 2-year mark. When it finally came time to sell my 520SF condo, I got my (inflated--at the time) asking price on the condition that it be sold furnished. After that, I sat out the market for 6 months until the right property (at the right price) came along.
When it comes time to sell, list your property in the Spring/Summer--when real estate activity is at its hottest. And buy another property over the Holidays through early February--when the market slows a bit, and sellers panic (because they may not be getting as many offers) and often lower their asking prices.
Enjoy your apartment! It sounds like you love it!
Hey guys, "The Owner" here. Lots of good advice. Enrique, I especially appreciate your heads up about the ramifications of selling prior to two years of residence; I recently learned about this and am actually in the middle of dealing with something similar. It is amazing the way taxes can kill you.
And, yes, in response to an above post, I think NY has become a luxury market, which is a real shame. If my parents hadn't helped me when I first moved to the city, years ago, I never could have become an owner.
TF -- I'm about to spend to re-do my kitchen with an eye toward resale as well. Do you have advice? Pictures? Did the realtors mention any specific features of the kitchen?
Interesting thread, particularly the tax issue. My partner just got a new job and we will sell our place and pack our bags for Austin, Texas this summer. Assuming our house sells this summer, it would be just shy of our November anniversary of living there for 2 years. Since we must sell due to a change of jobs, does the capital gains tax apply?
I suppose I could contact a tax lawyer, but I'm too cheap for that. Does anyone have any knowledge in this area that they could share.
John-
Yeah the capital gains tax applies if sold within 2 years of your original closing regardless of your situation. The IRS does not consider any special circumstances.
Josh
There is a slight chance that you can exclude part of the tax, but don't bet on it. Also factor in who owns the house, who is moving because of a job, etc. (John, you mention a "partner" -- sadly marriage may be an issue here)
See www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc701
There is a slight chance that you can exclude part of the tax, but don't bet on it. Also factor in who owns the house, who is moving because of a job, etc. (John, you mention a "partner" -- sadly marriage may be an issue here)
See www dot irs dot gov (slash) taxtopics (slash) tc701
John--Wait until after the 2-year anniversary to sell your home. (The capital gains tax will kill you otherwise.) Even if it sits vacant for a few months, you'll end up ahead.
John, you cannot get the maximum exclusion (assuming your gain is equal or greater to the maximum) but you can still get a large percentage of that 250K exclusion (for single) or 500K (for marrieds - not sure about same sex partners - you would have to ask tax person or google) in your case because you have to move more than 50 miles away due to a job change.
Go here
httpcolon//www.irs.gov/publications/p523/ar02.html#d0e3011
and do CTRL F to search for "reduced maximum exclusion". It mentions worksheet 2 to calculate the amount you are allowed to exclude. I did not hae time to find a link for that.
If your gain is less than the 250K or 500K maximum you can exclude then you may be able to exclude all of it depending on the percentage allowed from that worksheet 2 calc and on the percentage of 205K or 500K your gain actually is.
For example, let's use the 250K number. Your gain on the sale after all expenses was 150K. You do the worksheet and find you can exlcude 75% of the 250K which is 187.5K so your 150K is all capital gains tax free. Note that you still have to pay state income tax on it though.
BTW, if you did make over the cap, because you stayed there over a year your capital gains tax rate for the non excluded part is at the long term rate of 15%.
You do need to go to a tax pro for this though.
A note for Cristy on brokers and pricing - Realtors do need churn to turn over those comissions. This is why many will actually undervalue a place slightly to move it faster. An overvalued dwelling sits on the market and does nothing except for tie up a broker's time.
I don't mean to burst any bubbles (terrible pun, I know), but what good is "making" $139,000 on a place you won't sell? And, even if you sold it (why? Because a real estate agent told you to?), what would you be able to buy currently for $419,000? Realistically, "trading up" takes patience, timing and work.
I too have recently purchased. I just think that the "appreciation" on my home will come either once I decide to sell (which is never) or decide to refinance (again, never looks likely).
I would advise anyone in their first property against "playing" the market. You've got a place to live. You're building equity. Congratulations.
(Not constructive, I know, but I think it needs to be said that "How to Make $139,000 in 9 Months" seems really presumptuous and inflated. Let's be honest, the $139,000 "windfall" probably has very little to do with any real property savvy and is more the product of circumstance. I'm more interested in seeing shots of that kitchen redo than any feeble bragging. Good luck on the hotel rooms thing, though.)
TF,
Congrats TF! I'm on the same boat as you are. I was lucky enough that my parents helped me with the down payment and I'm now owning my place too. Its probably one of the most rewarding experience that I've been through, no matter how much hard work it took. But the thing is, I bought my apartment a little less then 2 yrs ago at 280K for 680sqft and supposidly it is worth about 400K now. And everyone is telling me to sell it.
Thing is I love the place, but also want to trade up and make my money work. Now if I sell, I'd pay my parents back for the down payment and with the remaining money, I'd probably only be able to get something at the same size but more in price.
With that in mind, it doesn't make sense to do this. But I also want to make my equity work for me, so do you all think that I should just sit on my apt now and use the equity to get another small place to rent out and use as investment? And in another couple years sell both and hopefully be able to pay my parents back and upgrade to a newer and hotter spot? Or even not do anything cause the market is said to be in a bubble and just wait... advice anybody?
And again, congrats on the apt.... its heck of a feeling ain't it?
How about getting an equity loan, then using that to pay off your parents? At least it will (once you pay off that loan) get you to a clean slate to enter into the market again, and get that parental-loan variable out of the mix. Assuming, that is, that your parnets would actually accept the repayment.
I've thought about cashing in, especially since my apartment has made way more than I have in the last two years. I figure my house is always worth another house though, even if the prices drop precipitously. I like it here, and I'd rather pay my mortgage than someone else's. If I'd bought in a neighborhood that I didn't like as much, or if I liked my apartment less, I might renovate it to flip it, but until I can afford that fabulous loft, I'm staying put...
I'm in the same boat - bought four years ago, apartment's more than doubled in value, brokers telling me to sell, sell, sell...
But unless I'm planning on leaving New York (and buying a huge house on 4 acres of land in Manhattan, Kansas) (yes, it exists, my brother lived there), what's the point? To "guess" that there's going to be a downturn (as JPup says), and hope to trade up when prices "fall"? I don't have the stomach for that kind of strategizing.
But thanks to everyone who has added so much helpful information to this thread. That's what makes this site so good.
Congratulations on being able to accomplish so much in a few months. If only we could all follow your foot steps.
I hate to be the voice of reason here but at some point RE prices will have to plateau if not come down a little. The reason RE prices have been able to skyrocket the way they have is because of increased buying power. That buying power comes from banks allowing people to take out "riskier" type loans. It use to be 15 yr fixed rate was the standard mortgage then it became 30yr fixed. Now it's 30yr adjustable or interest only loans that make up 2/3 of mortgages. All this means people have maxed out what they can purchase and also means there is a higher risk homeowners will not be able to meet their monthly payments if interest rates begin to rise. With interest rates being at a historical low it is a very likely possibility. Now I personally don't believe that the RE market will crash like the stock market but I also don't expect my home's value to rise as it has.
What can you do with an apt that has appreciated so much when everything else has? I have seen ppl ask that one before and they always ask it rhetorically when the answer is always it depends.
Let's just talk apts here and not houses because the most affordable places are apts. With about 80% of the nyc apt comprised of coops, with these coop boards being very strict on financials (most in Manhattan below the 100's will generally dictate 20% down) chances are good that the average middle class person in nyc is not going to be limited, in terms of cost of apt, by their income but by their savings.
When you're talking condos you will need at least 10% for the deposit when you go to contract.
You will also need an additional 5-6% in cash to cover closing costs plus 6-12 months worth of maintenance charges (for coops) in cash or liquid assets (401K,IRAs do not count).
So you could have a couple like the two examples here
httpcolon//forums.newyork.craigslist.org/?ID=28377998
httpcolon//forums.newyork.craigslist.org/?ID=27611449
who have 175K and 200K household incomes but only 60K and 50K cash saved respectively. These days they could qualify for mortgages in the 800K to 1MM range but that won't help them because their savings are too low. If they were buying a coop they would be limited to a $200K coop (20% dp plus 5% closing costs). If they were buying a condo they would be limited to around $330K (10% dp plus 5% closing costs). So let's say they really wanted a 2BR apt in park slope. They go for around 550K-600K for coops. Both sets of couples could easily qualify for that kind of mortgage but they would need close to $150K to close. You can see where I'm going with this can't you?
Had they bought something like TF's apt when he did, they could sell today and have enough cash to buy what they really wanted.
That is what the increase gets you. The down payment on the place that your income could easily carry but you could never afford because no one can save that amount of cash in that short of a time unless they are an ibanker.
Other examples of where trading up works is when you are on a career path (sorry but ibanker springs to mind again but even teachers get hefy raises when they get promoted) that gives you large raises as you get promoted. The increase on your little studio gives you a big down payment on a bigger place just when your income increases enough to carry the bigger mortgage.
Other examples here
httpcolon//forums.newyork.craigslist.org/?ID=22285151
BTW I am villagedunderhead on CL - villageidiot was taken.
DA - careful when you use stats that are not relevant to nyc becuase we are talking about TF's nyc apt here. I have already mentioned the prevalence of coops in nyc and their stringent rules when it comes to finances. Most coop boards go through your finances with a fine toothed comb and if they think you are a risky bet because you are taking out a risky loan then they will reject you.
Read these articles about the kind of cash you need for some coops and why these strict rules make nyc a much harder place to take those risks you talk about
httpcolon//query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9500E5DA103DF935A35750C0A9639C8B63
httpcolon//www.nyobserver.com/pages/frontpage2.asp
The nyobserver link will go stale soon once the new issue is out so I will post a new link once it is permanent.
I have seen the stats you mention only reported in California. They are not true for nyc.
I hear doubleclick is a good buy now!
Jamie Pup is my new American Idol.
Thanks for all the good, relevant information.
Jamie Pup--you are a god.
I followed your advice and checked out the link at the IRS. Since my partner (and yes partner in this case is a same-sex partner) and legal co-owner of our house is moving because of a job we qualify for a reduced maximum exclusion.
Assuming we sell the house and have a closing in August, we would have lived there for 22 months. Our exclusion is only reduced to $229,165 from the normal $250,000 for each individual.
Regardless of how crazy the housing market, we won't make a lot of money after all of the closing costs and money we invested in upgrading the house. Thus, we likely won't have to pay any capital gains taxes.
Unfortunately, our move will take us into the rather crude state of Texas politics, and Texas does not seem to take kindly to gay men (among others). However, we look forward to living in the reality bubble of Austin.
good luck in Texas, John and partner!! I hear lake country around Austin can actually be quite festive!
Fun post
Good for procrastinating at work.
Patrick sister just bought in Austin Texas in a posh neighborhood (the cheapest house on the block) and for $350K (i think) its a three bedroom!! You'll LOVE Austin!! There are lots of new developments near the lake area.
As for NYC Coop Boards, I had to borrow money from my 23 year old sister, my 80 year grandma to temporarily "park" in my bank account to pass the board, and I passed and own a one bedroom coop with 25% down up near Columbia, but I have zero zero money in the bank (as I had to return the graciously lent money" - so its not all COOPs are as "safe" as they appear.
congrats, but ya, cashing in only works in terms of upgrading if you-
have a lot of savings to add to the pot
or
move elsewhere. Just as your place has increased, so has everything around you.
Enjoy what you have. =)
lunesse, did you not read my post - where I showed how this common fallacy that because everything else has gone up means you can only buy the same type of place you sell - is just that in a lot of cases? Simplistic and false.
Thankfully pphillipp got my point and you are welcome as is John. Glad I could help.
Yep Mayday - exceptions to every rule.
Congrats on your purchase.