Q: Have recently purchased a 420 sq. ft. apartment with an extremely small kitchen. Basically, it has one usable wall of 5 feet in length to fit a refrigerator, stove and sink. The way things are laid out now the cabinets do not take advantage of the ten foot ceilings and a mini refrigerator extends out into the living room! I am planning a ship-style makeover to see if I can cram as much into the small space as possible.
I've found a farmhouse sink that is slightly narrower, at 22' W and really want to use it. I also want a dishwasher and I feel that it would have to be the under-sink model. Are farmhouse sinks and under-sink dishwashers compatible? Or do I have to abandon my dream of a farmhouse sink?
Sent by Kate
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Howard Butcher Bloc...
I don't know if it's compatible, but it's certainly not good kitchen design.
How are you going to rinse dishes in the sink and load the dishwasher? Not by standing in front of the door. So your option is to stand to the side, leaning over the open dishwasher door to access the sink? That's not good ergonomically, and will drive you crazy after a couple loads.
Do they make dishwashers with doors that open to the side? Even then, rolling out the racks would give you the same problem.
Sorry I can't offer you a better suggestion without seeing your kitchen, but don't install an under-sink dishwasher. It's just not functional.
Okay, upon further (meaning some) research, I think the answer is no. All the models I could find online are flush with the bottom of the countertop, with an inset dip to allow for an undermount (or similarly installed) sink.
Under sink dishwashers are meant to go under the very shallow side of a double bowl sink. There would be no way to accomodate the plumbing for a farmhouse sink. Also, the farmhouse sink requires its own cabinet, primarily because of the weight. An 18" dishwasher and a small undermount sink would be a better solution.
From a quick googling, it looks like an under-sink dishwasher will NOT work with a farmhouse sink. Additionally, the issue with the under-sink dishwashers seems to be that they are tiny and also steal a lot of space from your sink. The end result being that you have a dishwasher that is too small to accomodate your needs and a sink that is too shallow to do much dishwashing.
who needs a dishwasher in a 420sqft apartment? i'd rather have a cabinet to hold "things".
Hunh, I've been researching dishwasher drawers today, and just ran across someone saying that they did exactly that - a drawer under their sink (the KitchenAid). I think it can be done, you just have to research and be prepared for some inconvenience. It wouldn't be that big a deal, really.
Dishwasher drawers are not only expensive, but tend to be VERY problematic. And you still have the issue of the depth (and weight, if cast-iron)of the sink, and the location of the plumbing. A lot of hassle for very little benefit.
I don't have any suggestions but PLEASE POST PICTURES! We don't have enough "real" small spaces and apartments here on AT, and your project would be ideal. Can you post the before pics on a flickr account now so we can have an idea at what you're working with?
We have a very similar kitchen situation; our is a 5'x6' space and our solution was to replace our stove with a stainless steel stovetop and install a dishwasher beneath it. Sink is to the left with a small (one foot) section of counter space between the stove and sink.
In such a small space, the dishwasher is a lifesaver and restorer of sanity. Before the dishwasher we were constantly having to wash dishes by hand which left very time or energy for actual cooking. How depressing, right?
I agree with Overture here. Standing to the side of the sink to load will be a quick killjoy in your space.
btw I found both my stovetop and dishwasher on Craigslist from a homeowner who was mid-reno for a whopping total of $225.00. Dreams can come true. :)
Dish drawers run just under 24" wide to fit within a 24" cabinet - that's about the only thing that would fit under a farmhouse sink, but as others have stated, it's not a very good arrangement from a usability standpoint.
Instead, I'd install a cooktop with a combi-oven/range hood in the cabinet above and install the dish drawer in the cabinet beneath the cooktop - This the arrangement in Luxury Motorcoaches and yachts.
Also, since we "lost" the oven when the full stove went, we now use a toaster oven for most baking needs which works out very well, and employ our outdoor grill for larger items, including 3 turkeys now. Gotta love small space solutions. Big fans of the 'work smarter not harder' idiom in this case.
You can choose an 18" full height if you can find the room. Or nestle a countertop dishwasher into a cabinet next to the sink with a large storage drawer below. Stashing a countertop unit into a cabinet will take some ingenuity but it can be done! I just don't see the dishwasher being under the sink as all that convenient or useful.
You know, you could have a dishwasher and place a mini frig on top. When I first moved to France I couldn't believe how small our refrigerator was in our little rented apartment. It was sitting on the floor and blocked opening the cabinet under the kitchen sink (I could only open the right hand door.) Even worse, the door of the refrigerator when opened blocked access to any surface to set stuff on. After a couple of weeks I asked my husband to move the refrigerator to the top of the cabinet. Yes, it took up the space there, but I bought a small narrow marble table on sale, suddenly I had more space than before and I could even use my under the cabinet sink. It is a thought.
we're staying in a florence, italy apt this week on vacation. it's a 2 bd, 2 bath ... with a galley kitchen that is only 5 feet of wall space like yours. it includes a narrow d/w (from ikea), a half fridge, a two burner gas stovetop with a circular range vent/light over it, a microwave, and a sink that looks to be as wide as your farm sink or pretty darn close. there are cabinets....i'm definitely thinking i could cook in this kitchen. i think the microwave is also a convection oven but not sure....
Unless I had 4+ children or entertained 10+ guests every weekend, I'd forgo the dishwasher. The sink is nicer for one and when you add in the regular costs of dish washing liquid, water, power etc. Plus you have to rinse, load and unload, for a single person or a couple it would seem almost silly.
I was thinking the same thing as the above commenter about a counter-top dishwasher. Some of my friends in Chicago had one fairly inelegantly jammed in a corner on a microwave cart, but I'm sure it wouldn't be too inconceivable to get a carpenter to build it into a cabinet space if you don't want to have to look at it. But keeping it on the counter probably wouldn't kill too much more space than a drying rack would.
I moved into a place without a dishwasher about a year and a half ago, and I thought I wold hate it, but it turns out that hand-washing kind of therapeutic.
"Instead, I'd install a cooktop with a combi-oven/range hood in the cabinet above and install the dish drawer in the cabinet beneath the cooktop - This the arrangement in Luxury Motorcoaches and yachts."
This sounds like a really good solution.
Europeans manage to fit a lot of stuff into their kitchens, so I don't see why it can't be done. Hire a professional and see what ideas they have.
I'd suggest built in component style appliances - a dishdrawer, a refrigerator drawer, and a wall oven stacked together. Then a 2 element induction cooktop.
I have a Fisher & Paykel dishwasher drawer installed under the kitchen sink in my 450 sq foot apartment and it's great. There's room for a large drawer between my sink and the dishwasher for keeping detergent and other supplies. I say go for it.
Sadly, the great small space appliance options that seem to be easily found in Europe are either not available in US or super expensive. An 18" dw is definitely an option to consider, but you will pay a premium (I have never found an 18" dw for anywhere near as cheap as the most inexpensive 24" standard one). Dishwasher drawers I believe are more prone to problems, but that might be an option. Kitchenaid makes or made an in-sink dw called the Briva. I think there are single and double bowl options. Pricey, but potentially a good solution. Good luck!
I have an 18" wide dishwasher in our condo and it is the best thing ever!! you can get them at Best Buy and Home Depot
Seriously - you do not NEED a dishwasher. Try doing your bit for the environment.
My kitchen is about 5.5' x 4' - too small to even fit an IKEA kitchen in there (no room for 600mm deep worktops) ...I have a 2 ring gas hob, combi microwave and 22" wide by 60" tall fridge freezer. I would love to submit pics on here but the truth is - its too small to photograph - I've even tried standing outside and shooting through the window and it still can't be done :)
A tabletop dishwasher would fit under a farmhouse sink - although you'd have to do a lot of bending to get anything in or out.
If you're planning to use the height of the room it could easily be built in as a part of a taller cabinet so that it was at a more preferable tabletop height - you could even keep the crockery in a cupboard above/below it for easy putting away!
Here in the UK we are used to small spaces - take a look at the property for sale on this site - it's studios in London - http://www.panpeninsula.com/apartments/studio
They have a fab way of stacking the dish drawer, oven and microwave
"Seriously - you do not NEED a dishwasher. Try doing your bit for the environment."
@Hongkonger- Actually, dishwashers are almost always more water efficient than hand washing. That still doesn't mean that anyone NEEDS one, but you're working off of a false premise.
We've been debating the same issue in our small kitchen for 2 1/2 years now. We can probably only fit a single dishdrawer. We live in a rural area, so the challenge has been finding a skilled contractor that we can trust to install it.
I went without a dishwasher for ~ 18 months, and it was horrible. I cook and bake a lot. I may be only a single person, but I run my full-size dishwasher every 2-3 days, and it's completely full. I hated handwashing, and it sucked up a lot of time I could have been doing something more enjoyable. I redid my kitchen this summer and I am so happy I found a way to jam a full size dw in there.
Hi -- thanks all for the many thorough and thoughtful ideas. A lot to mull over. Have lived without a dw before (2 years in an apt without one) and would really rather sacrifice some storage small to have one, even a tiny version. That being said, am prepared to give up the farmhouse sink, as it really doesn't seem feasible given the limited amount of space. Set up at flickr account to show some pictures. Hope the link works (haven't use flickr before). Thanks again!!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/60042171@N08/sets/72157626140525846/
Wow, that is an insanely small kitchen! Does it have to stay in that space? Could you do a one-wall kitchen along a wall of your living/dining space? I would at least switch the fridge to the other side of the wall (maybe pushed into the l/d space a bit, and then make a peninsula with cabinets. It's not clear to me if that's a 24" or 30" range, but I'd say you'll have to go with the smaller one to eke out more space. An 18" dw is probably preferable, given the space constraints. I'd go with really tall top cabinets to get as much storage as possible (39" or higher compared to typical 30" high uppers). Good luck!
@Molly - there is more than water consumption involved...the actual production and shipping/transportation of an item that people actually don't need (everyone has a sink - right), the water consumption (rinsing then running the machine), and the extra energy involved in heating the water and the drying cycle, the replacement of crockery more frequently because of the extra wear on dishes, the landfill when it is disposed of... sorry, I still maintain my position.