Lara, the modern air cleaners (often hepa-filtered) really do work to take smoke out of the air, we had one in every room (while I was caregiver for a terminally ill family member who smoked up to 2 packs a day). I'm asthmatic, and allergic to smoke, and would have been unable to manage without this style of air cleaner and they're absolutely quiet (unlike earlier models). We used the Sharper Image tower versions, but there are many brands on the market now, just one tip: make certain to buy the type where you can remove and wash the parts, rather than have to replace a filter, as the filters become quite expensive over time.

take up clog dancing?

Talk to a housing law/condo law attorney. You may well be able to bring a nuisance suit against her if the smoke is really that bad. I don't know where the law stands on this now (I don't practice in NY anymore) but especially given the smoking ban, I would think you can legally force your neighbor to install an adequate air purification system. The threat of litigation, i.e. a strongly-worded letter from your attorney, may alone be enough to get her to take care of the problem. If you don't want to/can't pay for a private attorney, contact the local law schools to see if they have a housing law or other law clinic that could help you out.

FWIW, given that these are local laws we're talking about, my Aunt was "the smoker" in a similar situation in NJ. Her attorney advised her she either needed to quit smoking or install a fancy/expensive air purifier. She decided to move instead. Hope that helps!

Don't use the sharper image tower filters, google them and you'll see why (they're bad news). Only use actual HEPA approved filters.

I know this is difficult but search out the places where the smoke is getting into your unit. I doubt its coming through the walls. Do you share joint heating and cooling ductwork? Do the air return vents link together? Are their any pipes runnng up the inside walls that were left uncovered?
I ask all this thinking lots of easy flexible insulation like the foam can variety might seal off your neighbor and make a cheap and easy fix. Since the neighbor is downstairs checking all the flooring like the baseboards for cracks and air leaks and in the closets and service areas to see if they left gaps or open spaces might help. If it really is the walls nothing would prevent you from drilling an inch whole into them between each stud and squirting a can of foam in and then later plastering over and painting. I would try all of this before finally selling a space I really liked. Good Luck.

I agree about contacting a lawyer. Though I think any suits might be better brought against the condo housing board so that you can be permitted to make any changes to the building itself. That seems the more reasonable line of action - other than kindly helping your neighbor to quit her unhealthy habit or, at least, giving her an air filter for Christmas.

Definitely pursue legal options...nothing like a lawyer's letter to put a fire under someone's butt!

If you can't change the insulation, try "weatherstripping" your house keep out the air from your neighbour's unit. Seal cracks and gaps with sprayed foam, foam rods or caulking. There are neoprene pads to put under light switch plates and electrical outlet plates to create a seal.

Also look at any mechanical systems that may be linking your unit to your neighbour's. Bathroom fans, kitchen hoods or old heating/vent systems could be shared and be letting the smoke in. Add a filter if you can, or try to get the systems separated (not cheap or easy, I know).

No helpful comments, but wanted to give a shout out of support. My brother has what have been near fatal allergy attacks, so I have a special loathing for inconsiderate smokers and people who sneak dogs around.

I really hope you can find a cheap and satisfying legal resolution!

cigarette smoke is not an allergen.

I was in the same situation although my neighbor lived beside me not below me. (Ruling out taking up clogging.) I finally located the "leak" between our units -- openings around the plumbing in the kitchen -- and used spray foam insulation there to stop it up. Worked like a dream and haven't had any issues since. Try that first before you sell or see an attorney. Good luck!

I beg to differ john, cigarettes are not only full of toxins that people are alelrgic to, but can also ittitate other allergic conditions.

There is some really excellent information, both practical and legal at:
http://www.no-smoking.org/

My sympathies, cigarette smoke is the absolute worst.

but it is an irritant. you don't have to be allergic to bleach or paint to not want to have to breathe in the fumes constantly; ditto smoke.

it's possible that a lot of the smoke is coming in via ductwork and pipes, as well as out her open windows and up into yours. there's a chain smoker in my building, and i most often smell smoke near an open window, under a vent, or in the bathroom.

so insulating may not do the trick, unfortunately. my usual fix in my own situation is usually to burn inscense or cook something yummy that will fill the house with good smells, but i'm not so much allergic as grossed out.

if you have medical records to the fact that you're allergic to smoke, or an allergist would be willing to testify to that fact, i'd definitely agree with the lawyer above.

you guys are suggesting she threaten with litigation and lawyers when she hasn't even spoken to her neighbor? You have no case whatsover if you haven't even attempted to speak with her. Your case will sit at the bottom of a trash can. Try speaking with her first. If she refuses to do anything about it, then she may potentially be the one not liable. The building owners might be. I am not a smoker but I know she is allowed to smoke in her own home. A nuisance suit will bring more nuisance if you don't try resolving it with her first. So, one step at a time. Talk to her. Report back what happens so you can proceed with the next step. good luck.

related question:

Is the spray foam ok to use around hot pipes?

Cigarettes are not illegal and the neighbor is smoking in her own house. Since when did smokers become the lepers of society. This is a free country and you people have taken away every other place to smoke and now you want to stop people from doing what they want in their own homes????!!! Give me a break, if you don't like it get your building to fix any problems or move and let your neighbor do a legal activity in her own home. If you don't like smoke and hate smokers fine but keep it to yourself, quit bombarding people with truth ads and your condescension. My two cents.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

To answer a few questions:
1. Cigarette smoke is an allergen, or I spent my first five years getting weekly allergy shots for it for nothing. ;)
2. I have spoken to my neighbour about the issue. She started screaming at me about how it's none of business what she does in her home. I agree. I can't tell her not to smoke in her house, and that's not what I asked. Just as she has the right to smoke in her house, I have the right to be able to breathe and not be uncomfortable in *my* home.
3. It's a condo development, where we own the interiors of the houses, but the condo corporation is responsible for the common elements, including plumbing.
4. We're just outside of Toronto, Canada, so unfortunately, the New York ban on cigarettes doesn't apply. :)
5. I don't see litigation against my neighbour as a viable option. First, I have to live here, and that wouldn't be good for neighbourly relations. Second, I think that poor insulation and improper plumbing is more the problem, and that's the responsibility of the corporation. And I have discusssed the issue with a lawyer, who told me that it would be very, very, very costly and probably not get the solution I'm looking for.
6. I'd rather not move, because I'd have to add $100K to my mortgage to get a similar-sized home in a good neighbourhood.

But thank you for the ideas about the spray foam and insulation ideas. There are a couple of places in the walls I can think of that may help. *grin*

Could it also be worth checking for any gaps in floorboards and getting them filled?

The truth ads are paid for by the tobacco companies as part of a court order.

People are free to do whatever they like in their own homes, but if it affects their neighbors (smoke, noise, music) then it becomes an issue.

I would try to approach this in a logical manner. Smoke will move upward through the most easily accessible passage. It is unlikely that insulation is your problem.

Smoke is leaving her apartment through some opening or openings, and entering yours through another. I would suggest that you work together to solve this.

Have her smoke in a specific room in her apartment. See if you smell smoke in yours. You could also test this by having her light incense. Do this one room at a time until you have discovered which of her rooms allow the smoke to escape. Search each room for likely exit points: air return ducts, windows that are directly under your windows, openings in the wall (light fixtures, loosely fitted electrical outlets, places where plumbing pierces the wall). At this point it may be helpful to have her actually blow smoke at each of these potential culprits and see if you smell it stronger in your place. Seal up any gaps around plumbing or fixtures/outlets with caulk.

If the issue is your return vents then you may want to speak with the building about putting a vent fan in (or checking the master fan serving the return system) to increase the return pressure from your unit and prevent the smoke from back-filling into your place.

While your neighbor is smoking up her rooms and finding the point of exit, try to find the point of entrance. Smell carefully at the likely entrance points as outlined above. You should be able to find the entrance and caulk it up.

Sorry for the long post, hope this helps. I would much rather resort to basic science than litigation, it's cheaper and nicer.

i am in a similar situation and i share your frustration. i recommend the bluair 402 or other models air purifier. it has one of the highest cadr ratings and releases no harmful uv. you do have to purchase filters, but it may be worth it for you as they have a special smoke stop filter. they sell them at allergybuyersclub.com or bed, bath, and beyond.

This happens in my apartment sometimes -- I figured out the smoke was getting in through the closets. In my cheaply constructed postwar building, finishing on the inside of the closets was not as thorough as elsewhere. Unfortunately, the inside of my closet backs into neighbor's living room, where he smokes. Also, meters, etc. were hidden inside closets, creating more cracks and crevices where attachments were drilled. So check the closets.

This is exciting and I am really hoping that there are further steps to get smokers out of my breathing space. I don't mean to sound elitist at all, but it is my choice not to smoke, why should I be forced to by inhaling their disgusting stench?

http://www.nsra-adnf.ca/cms/index.cfm?group_id=1467

try pressurizing your unit, it it's central a/c and /or heat, that means you have a return air register somewhere. cover approx. 1/3 of it w/ cardboard, now more air will be pumped in than taken out. if this works, try covering less than 1/3 till you smell smoke again, now you know how much it takes.

A judge recently upheld an HOA that prohibited a couple from smoking in their own home. They found that the smoke constituted a nuisance, which was not allowed.

Google "couple can't smoke in own home".

As far as I'm concerned, smoke getting outside of a unit is just as bad as loud music.

It's a lot worse than loud music, because it causes all sorts of diseases!

God, as a lawyer, I find this urge to jump straight to lawsuit land to be at minimum, completely overboard. Its symptomatic to our selfish and sense of entitlement that the first instinct is to sue. Your neighbor has a right, generally speaking, to do whatever she wants in the privacy of her own home. One the other hand, you have a right to live in your home free of nuisance.

"Nusiance", however, is not, "whatever particular thing happens to bug me today". The law also places limits on what is considered a nuisance in urban locations, as the law recognizes that people have to live together in tight quarters in urban locations and we can't just go around letting people sue each other because their neighbor has bad B.O. Finally, the standard of tolerance is the normal person. If you are particularly sensitive to a specific allergen, that is generally irrelevant, unless a normal or "average" person would be equally bothered by it.

I'd also add that the caselaw in this area is developing but far from conclusive, and extremely dependent on the particular jurisdiction - some courts have held for the plaintiff (the non-smoker) and some for the defendant (the smoker). Cases where the plaintiff has succeeded generaly involve a fact pattern where the complainant has first taken steps to both inform the smoker and to phyisically mitigage the smoke intrusion.

This is why you should to talk to your neighbor and exhaust that as a remedy before even thinking lawsuit. If I got one of those "threatening letters" before my neighbor even talked to me, I'd send one of mine own back threatening a counterclaim for frivolous litigation.

i agree we should round all smokers up and make them live in one specific state, like north dakota. we all know they are disgusting and need to be told by the rest of us how to live THEIR lives. Hey maybe we should make it a criminal offence to smoke around other people, like attempted murder, yeah that would show those horrible smokers how stupid they are. Studies show without question that second hand smoke kills so many thousands every year, even though there is nothing to prove that other factors could be responsible for the deaths of people.

listen i smoke and i am also a considerate smoker, i agree smoking shouldn't be allowed in restaurants where people eat and around places where children are. i also am wary of other people when i do smoke in public, but when you people start questioning what smokers can do in there own home its ridiculous. and its said with such disdain like we as smokers are lesser humans. we choose to smoke because we find it relaxing or a stress break from the rigors of the world and as americans we have that right to do that as it is legal in america. so please back off the elitism please

i'm sorry for being a bit melodramatic, but its a frustrating topic for me.

Hi Lara, I don't understand why? you simply didn't go straight to her and explain your situation. You stated she is not the most pleasant person in the world - why do you say this? Even though she is a smoker she is still a person. And maybe she isn't pleasant (to you) because she was told about your complaints?
I am sure if you approach this person the right way and explain your situation that she will listen. If I were you I'd try speaking to her asap. I know the smoke bothers you it does most people. I am a smoker trying desperately to quit and I like many other people am not in a "happy joyful" mood all the time. I am considerate of others. If I were this woman and you asked me I would not hesitate to work with you. Most smokers want to quit but when confronted like we don't care about ourselves or others, guess what, we say FU. So, please don't blame her but ask her. I sometimes laugh at people who quickly jump to judge others without even ever having tried to talk to them. Let me know how it goes - good luck!

Okay first John, what dimension of reality are you in currently? Smoking does affect allergies.

Jules, actually, I'm sorry this is a senstive subject, but as someone who has recently onset of asthma, being able to breath is VERY FRUSTRATING TOPIC to me...and I've found being exposed to cigarette smoking for a long period of time tweaks my allergies into an asthma attack. I'm glad you're a considerate smoker, but if what someone does in their own home makes it so I can't breath in mine, I'd be exploring the legal possibilities.

Cielo, for your defensiveness, if you read Lara's post I think you'll find she started screaming at her when she broached the topic.

And for all those smokers, remember the issue is she's a CHAIN SMOKER. She could probably help alleviate so much of Lara's suffering if she herself were willing to do a few things. Two simple ways would be using smokeless ashtrays (yes, I know smoke escapes, but it helps) and using air purifiers in her own home.

Lara, here's my suggestions. Why are you concerned with remaining 'neighborly' with this woman if she's already screamed at you. She's an idiot, just accept there needs to be an ice wall between the two of you. I would definitely check out legal options to try to not make her QUIT smoking in her home, but adjust her habit a bit.

And I agree with you that you should definitely check out your legal options regarding your HOA.

Oh yes. And do your research on air purifiers.

Shari - who knows how she approached her neighbor. Everyone sounds very neutral in written form on the Interwebs, but who knows if she came of sounding like a snotty princess when she spoke to the woman. (Not saying Lara did necessarily, but having dealt with neighbors, I can honestly say that a lot of folks out there come across as whiny, arrogant yupsters in real life. I usually deal with folks like that with hearty "kiss my tuchus")

Also, I'm sorry you have asthma, but that doesn't make the smoking a nuisance per se. A normal or average person does not have asthma or other respiratory disabilities. The standard is whether something would be a nuisance to a normal person, not whether it would be a nuisance to someone who is abnormally sensitive.

From your perspective, its kinda sucky. But we can't have a situation where everyone is living close together in urban environments sueing each other b/c their neighbors curry dinners annoy them.

Buy her a ton of cigarettes and hope that lung cancer does her in early.

LOL @ Daisy. funny funny.

Jules,
Actually you smoke because you are weak.
Everyone has stressors in their lives... and millions of us don't smoke to deal with them.

Second to all...
Yes, the neighbor has a right to smoke in her own home but the original poster has a right to breathe in hers.

If you have ever suffered from an asthma attack or anaphylactic shock (as I have) you do not realize how much you take breathing for granted. I've never been more afraid in my life than when my breathing was compromised!

My downstairs neighbor is also a nuicense smoker. (on top of that, she's bi-polar and schitzo - so she's a real freaking treat!)

Quite frankly, I was here first (Homeowner) and it never occured to me that a smoker would even buy in our building! If you smoke or have dogs... you should have to approach the HOA for approval before you purchase!!!

Actually, if you smoke or have dogs you should go buy and acreage and live far away from decent folk!

(I jest, I tease)

I had this problem and was able to improve it greatly by spraying foam insulation in the gaps under my baseboards (where carpet had been at one time). Also, putting that flexible caulk on the windows kept my neighbor's outdoor smoking from entering my apartment. I was never ever to solve the problem of the smoke entering the return air vent though.
The foam insulation also cut down on noise transmission from below.

Or if you don't want to have to deal with neighbors who might smoke or own a dog or have a crying baby or cook smelly foods or play loud rock music, then you shouldn't buy a condo, because city living is not for you and you really should't inflict your uptightness on your neighbors.

Condo living (or apartment living for that matter) is NOT like the sanitized single family home with the white picket fence in middle class Mayberry you grew up in.

Instead, go buy a detached single family dwelling out in the 'burbs.

I don't know what kind of flooring you have, but maybe it's time to replace it. When you do, have a layer of aluminum foil installed. It will prevent the smoke, even fine gases, coming through. I have had this problem, so I totally sympathize. It's not uptightness, it's basic well being. Detached home may not solve it either. It all depends on whether other people will be considerate or not. You should also contact a lawyer, as others have said. Selfish jerks who think if you live in a high-density area you should either be rich or let their way of life invade yours are clueless. You do have a legal right to the quiet enjoyment of your home in most places. Clearly this smoke is preventing it.

Isn't it remarkable when smokers fail to recognize their addiction? ....such as Jules who wrote, "we choose to smoke because we find it relaxing or a stress break from the rigors of the world and as americans we have that right to do that as it is legal in america."

Ha! Jules, you find smoking relaxing because you are addicted to nicotine! You can fool yourself, but don't try fooling us.

I had this problem in an apartment years ago in a time when NO ONE, would have had any sympathy. Tom has a working and inexpensive solution above. Adjust the fans in your heating/ac (btw, businesses do this all the time, any heating/ac person will be familiar with doing it). Tell them you need higher pressure and why. Pressurizing your unit will work.

Of course, the clog dancing remains my favorite suggestion! :-)

i never meant to deny that i was addicted to cigarettes PPan you pompous ass. i am addicted to nictotine, but guess what i enjoy it and i should be allowed to enjoy a LEGAL product in my own f##king home. i am not weak either, i consider choosing to smoke as freedom. i do something that i enjoy. i know there are possible health ramifications, but i don't care. i don't want to be 95 in a nursing home with some stranger wiping my ass. if that's what you health fanatics want, go for it. i hope the person who said for the smoker to get lung cancer gets cancer themselves in the colon or breast or prostate or the many, many other forms of cancer that can be caused by any number of ways besides smoking. hell you could die tomorrow in a freak skeet shooting accident. i choose to live for the moment, carpe diem. and if you elitist liberal doucebags can't handle that well go live out in the middle of nowhere and stay away from us decent folk....later

As a smoker (or weak nicotine addict or whatever the nom du jour may be), I think that a person with a chainsmoking habit and a person with severe allergic reactions should just not live in stacked proximity. A flamenco dancer shouldn't live in a flat over a writer, either. One of them should probably move.

In red-state detached house suburbia where I live, the smokers I know go outside of our own houses to smoke. I wouldn't want to live on top of a chainsmoker either, unless it was Colin Farrell.

I've read carefully through this post and I have to add my two cents to this issue. First of all, many people here seem to be completely uneducated about asthma. It is a life threatening disease that can be triggered by smoking. Best case, this person will spend hundreds of dollars per year to counteract the effects of the smoke, worst case the person ends up in the hospital. I speak from personal experience. For all the smokers reading this post, you all have no idea how it feels when you cannot take a full breath. It's like swimming, and not being able to take a good breath when you come to the surface. It is an awful feeling. Unfortunately people who smoke don't want to consider that they are basically strangling someone else with their bad habit.

This thread is awesome. Nothing gets panties in a knot like smokers vs. non-smokers! So far we have very few number of practical suggestions about physically dealing with the smoke, and a ton of bitching and moaning about various maladies, legal options, and attacks.

Treat the smoke like what it is, not a call to battle. If the woman downstairs was simply farting uncontrollably would people be so eager to go for the lawyers? How does nicotine addiction stack up versus asthma? If she can't stop herself from smoking doesn't that mean she's just as afflicted?

I guess there's only one way to settle this now: Cage Match. No inhalers, no smoking between rounds. Knockout or submission means the looser has to move. I'd buy tickets!

Jules, I agree you should be able to do whatever you want to yourself, smoking tobacco included.

None of us has a right to directly harm others, especially in their own homes. I am not accusing you of that Jules, although you obviously feel defensive.

This post is about Lara's being sickened from her neighbor's smoke, which is permeating her home. Her problem sure seems like an injustice to me.

As a non-smoker, (also in a red state suburbia), I admit that having the smell of smoke in my home all the time would drive me to move. But I understand that the original poster may not be in the position to move at this time. (nothing like a little external motivation to get you saving cash every month, though, eh?) :)

Anyway, I think pressurizing the system as Tom suggested is a good first step. Then, adding the additional foam insulation spray in cracks and crevices, as another person said. Thirdly, I'd be proactive and add some sort of quality air purification system to your own unit as well. This mult-layered approach could make your home tolerable until you can move out (or until smokey moves, whichever comes first).

I agree with Max that the fact that this is smoking has different emotional implications than say, if the neighbor were persistently and uncontrollably flatulent, or cooked stinky smelly food all the time. Regardless, this is the risk one runs when purchasing anything besides a single family residence.

Several people have suggest non-antagonistic but proactive means of improving the state of your condo. Clearly the lower level woman is not ammenable to working with you to solve the problem so don't go there. The condo guys see $$ going up in smoke (no pun intended) when you complain so are not eager to get involved.

Go for it!! Cover your air returns by 1/3, squirt foam insulation anywhere you think there might be a leak (ask a trades type person to make suggestions they will think of places you wouldn't dream of) and add an air filtration system. Make photos and keep receipts in case you need to approach your condo authority again. Do what you can to help yourself out.

Dear Lara:

I am so very sorry you are suffering from this problem. Full disclosure: I do smoke, but I agree that my smoking ought not to bother others.

Since your neighbor screamed at you about the problem, it seems to me that she is probably not very amenable to making modifications in her place to help with the problem. Still, I feel she should go about sealing and caulking and getting air filters so that she does not bother others.

Perhaps someone else in your building could approach her and ask her to do some sealing and caulking in her unit and to use a purifier in the room she uses for smoking. It seems to me that she could easily cooperate with you without having to quit her habit.

I commend you on going for the sealing and caulking in your own apartment. This will have the added benefit of helping keep out bugs, vermin and some noise. I also suggest you get an air purifier for your place; this will help not only with smoke but with other potential allergens. This expense is certainly less than the $100K you'd have to pay for a new place. In an ideal world, your neighbor would pay for the purifier, but it seems to me that if she yelled at you, she's probably not going to pony up any money or goodwill.

Finally, I want to share an experience I had in my old apartment. I moved in to a place with wood floors and within a couple of days, a downstairs neighbor was screaming at me and threatening a lawsuit because he could hear my cat running around with a ball in my place.

I was unaware that the sound carried downstairs, but was horrified that this was bothering another person. Although I apologized and immediately had thick carpet installed, which did away with the problem, this neighbor carried on for several years about this. I don't think his mental health was the best.

Good neighbors will ideally be clean, quiet, and cooperative. It's too bad this is not the case at your apartment complex. My hope is that your efforts at sealing your apartment will yield good air quality and peace for you.

Dave, I don't know what you use a definition of nuisance or standards.

I think it's a standard that chainsmokers smoke would bother any nonsmoking individual.

And what difference did she sound on her approach? My god...I should have someone kiss my tuchus because what I'm doing is making it so they're physically miserable--is that your mindset?

My statements were based on the neighbor being a chain smoker who didn't want to take ANY responsiblity for her habit. The health effects of second hand smoke are well documented DAVE.

It's one thing if it's a light to moderate smoker as a neighbor..but a chainsmoker really should work at making their habit as least obtrusive as possible.

As for lawsuit, yes...if the woman's habit is causing another person to be ill and isn't amenable to taking responsibility for her part in it. Yes, cigarettes a legal. So is alcohol. Remember, at one time drunk driving wasn't that big a deal, either. Not everyone who drinks is a drunk and not everyone who smokes is a chainsmoker.

The other neighborly option then would be to take up clog dancing which david l. suggested at the beginning.

From Jules: "i know there are possible health ramifications, but i don't care. i don't want to be 95 in a nursing home with some stranger wiping my ass. if that's what you health fanatics want, go for it."

You are right, Jules, you won't be there at 95. You will have some stranger wiping your butt at a much younger age than 95. Second-hand smoke is horrible, and I am always amazed at the way some smokers seem to think that they have the right to impose their disgusting, unhealthy habit on others, especially now when we are aware of all the harm that smoking causes to individuals as well as their families. And dying younger doesn't mean that you will suffer any less. In fact, there isn't much worse than being hooked up to an oxygen tank while gasping for air and hacking up blood clots all day long as your body deteriorates and caretakers must be present 24 hours a day watching you die.

Back to the question, I would recommend trying to seal off the place where the smoke is seeping in, as others have suggested. Also, you might try being really, really nice to the neighbor. Maybe she will start to feel guilty or at least be more cooperative. You could also request that she (or you) be transferred to another unit in the same building. Maybe another smoker would be willing to trade units with you, and if your request is accompanied by a formal letter from a lawyer, the condo company would probably comply. I don't know about the legalities of trading owned units, though. If this isn't an option, make sure to have your unit thoroughly cleaned after you have contained the source of the smoke. You will want to have any carpets/rugs cleaned, as well as upholstered furniture, etc., to get rid of any residual smoke.

You might also try to organize a campaign to ban smoking in Toronto. I bet you would find other willing participants in the campaign.

One final thought: Beyond the health hazards of smoking, I always worry about the risk of a fire starting, especially from someone who chain smokes all day long. Maybe this is another route you could pursue with the condo board--surely no one wants the building to burn down from an improperly extinguished cigarette.

Hi Lara,

I see half-way down the comments that you are outside Toronto. I'm another Ontario resident, on a co-ownership co-op board for an older building in the west end of the city. (not condo, and governed by a different set of laws) and have some personal experience with a similar issue.

1. This is a difficult issue, both for owners and for boards. The ultimate source of the problem has to do with the building structure itself and the provincial building codes that were in effect at the time (the requirements for sound proofing and air circulation isolation has changed a lot of the past forty years). The ultimate solution is going to involve better sealing between the units and/or increased air exchange, as other posters have noted and the ultimate question to be answered is who is going to pay.

Try dropping a line to The Toronto Star's condo legal advice column. Should make for an interesting column.

2, When was your building built? Is it an apartment tower, a low rise or a stacked townhouse development? Individual unit HVAC didn't become widespread in towers unil the late seventies. Common kitchen and bath vent stacks with centralized mechanical vents were the standard before that. If the smoke is getting into your unit through the bath or kitchen venting, the building needs a vent system with a higher rate of air exchange. That's not a small cost (depending on the size of the building) and has to be weighed against other maintenance requirements. If that turns out to be the ultimate solution, the board is going to also want to consider getting getting one with as much green technology built in as possible in the name of energy efficiency. And then, should they replace all of them at the same time?
More shopping choices....

If it's a stacked townhouse development, then the issue is most likely the seal around the pipes coming through the fire barrier between your unti and the one below. That's going to mean opening up your walls and sealing the gaps with expanding foam caulk. Any place where a match flickers when placed in front of a break in the wall (outlets, light switches and the like) should also be foamed in around the outside of the receptacle boxes.

3. My opinion is that you should talk to a lawyer early in the process, because this is a new issue and locally, precendent is still being set. Condo and co-op boards vary in their knowledge levels, as do their property management companies. You need some advice as to strategy, tactics and how to best handle this without permanently pissing off your neighbour. Also, the best way to herd the cats towards a solution you can live with is to have done your research; condo lawyers are excellent one-stop advice shopping. :)

Also, this starts to become a building code matter. If you have a problem in a recently built condo, what about other people? It's greater than just you; this needs to be addressed at the CCA/local builder's associations/building code level as well, and that will take time.

3. When you start in on the process, start a diary, noting dates, action taken and results received. Go into meetings clearly identifying the problem and the result that will make you happy. Research possible solutions and cost ranges. Nothing helps people make up theiri minds quickly than having a price tag, a time frame and someone to do the work clearly identified. As a board member at a self-managed building (and acting as the property manager!) I'm asked about stuff like this on a regular basis. There's only so much I can do in my copious spare time (we're also mid-way through major renovations), and my answer to our shareholders is that the fastest way for them to get the answer to their question is to have their info prepared ahead of time so that the Board can make a decision. If all our questions are answered early and there are no more questions, we generally say "yes" really fast. :)

Lara~I apologize for not going over your reply to the other comments. I am at work when I read these (usually rather quickly so I tend not to go through each comment)but if the case was she screamed at you I guess she is obvioulsy not approachable. All I can is it appears many individuals who commented seem to think smokers are heartless people who don't seem to care about others. Anyone who is addicted to anything should not be judged simply because they can't quit or choose not to. Sometimes smoking is a way to drown out another problem. For me personally it's a way to escape problems or help me deal with everyday stresses. Consider what your options are - if your health is at risk (and I don't know your situation) look for another place. I hope it works out for you. I am the only smoker in my family and have never out of respect to them smoke around them. I also don't smoke infront of coworkers or friends.

Dave,

That's brilliant. I should buy house I can't afford in a remote area in which I don't want to live because MY ACTIONS DON'T BOTHER ANYONE ELSE?!?!?!

Considerate people have a right to live in condos. Apparantly it's just too much to ask other people to be as considerate, quiet, and kind as I - in exchange!

Back on topic ... the smoke from smoking, hacking, schitzo neighbor below seems to seep into the closets for one thing. I thought it was my imagination for a while... I would open my clothes closet and get the stale, nasty aroma.

Later, when my handyman opened up the access panel to the plumbing under the tub - he was hit with a waft of smokey air which was held between her ceiling and my floor!
If that is not proof that it penetrates I don't know what is!

I'm trying to check into blowing insulation between my floor and her ceiling, but the building went up in 1949 - so I don't know if it's possible. Plus, I don't want to have to muck up my beautiful wood floors to do so.
She's causing the problem... it should go through her ceiling if anything.

Oh... and if all you people have to stand on is that smoking is a legal activity... keep talking.... we can change that!

This is hillarious.

Jules (and John),

to quote a good friend - "the only good thing about smokers is that they are killing themselves".

I have never, I repeat NEVER, met someone who is a considerate smoker. I know some lovely people who consider themselves to be considerate smokers, but I am just to polite to actually tell them what they smell like as I sit there holding my breath.

Seriously smokers, you have no idea how bad you smell. When you get on a train next to me I want to puke.
When you get on a bus after just stubbing out a fag, I want to puke.
You know how the smell of your own shit isn't 'bad'? Well wake up - that's just like fags - you just don't appreciate how bad it is for other people.

I hate you all. You make my journey shitty. All I want is to sit there and enjoy the view, and an ashtray sits down opposite me. You horrors.

The thing is - EVERYONE IS TOO POLITE TO TELL YOU WHAT YOU SMELL LIKE - when you get to work, breathe gently in your friends face and ask them to tell you what you smell like. No chewing gum though - that just smells like chewing gum for a few minutes, then you go back to smelling like an ashtray again.

Your house smells like you.
If you post an envelope to someone, it smells like you. I have received letters from people I know who smoke. Everything in your home becomes a giant ashtray. But because you smoke - YOU CAN'T SMELL IT. You simply DON'T SMELL HOW BAD YOU ARE. I had an Aunt who gave me a jumper. It was unwearable. It was as though it had been sitting in a nightclub cloakroom. It just soaked her vile life up.

Actually the worst thing about smokers is that they kid themselves into thinking that all they are doing is living their own liberties... what they don't appreciate is that they are causing other people to smoke. They think it's okay to normalise a habit that for many many people will become an addiction that will end in an early death. How inconsiderate.

For me, I don't care about that, I will never smoke, so I will live longer than you. Good. Please smoke more so that you die much much younger than me. Also, you have a higher chance of becoming infertile than me, so less of your children (who you encourage to smoke by example) will pop into existence.
But before then, please send me your address so that I can send you the cleaning bill for the last 16 years of having to wash my clothes of the stench that you and your fetid breed of liberty takers have inflicted on me.

The reason this thread is running and running is because so many people have suffered at the hands of people who think they have a right to do what they want in their own homes. Scum.

Please develop a throat cancer and undergo a futile life saving surgical proceure soon.

And die.

Thanks.

Wait wait.... I have a better solution....

All these suggestions on how to make her house air tight so the smoke doesn't get in?

How about sealing her neighbour in?

Make it completley air tight so that she poisons herself with carbon monoxide (and cyanide and ..... any other substance in cigarettes).

Brilliant!

Then when she's dead, break in and throw the body out of the window.

This should've been titled "how to deal with freaks"
To all those who commented above I have this to say - get help. Anyone who wishes death and sickness to anyone has obviously stopped taking their meds. They are angry and hostile at the world and are crying out for help before they slid their wrists.
Go, go now and get the help you need not from apartment therapy.com but a more intense type of therapy that can zap some sense into your head. Hopefully all that hate and anger won't eat you up like the worse form of cancer that's out there. And hopefully you might be able to function in the "real world" where smoking and all other types of addiction are present and polluting this world.
"Happy Holidays"
&
Peace to All

I have this same problem where smoke odour (and kitchen smells) comes through my vents; however I live in a townhouse. I just moved in 3 months ago and it's driving me crazy. Everyone tells me it shouldn't be happening in a townhouse, and the heating repairman said he's never seen this problem in 30 years!

The advice I've gotten so far is: #1 turn on my stove fan because it intakes air from outside (but this doesn't help) #2 spray foam insulation around a hole in the wall near the furnace (it's already sprayed but must be a small patch) #3 buy an electronic air cleaner.

Any advice on why this might be happening? or something more effective to try? The only source I can see is from the vents. I know exactly when the neighbours have their before-bed cigarettes and can tell you that as I am typing they are having some kind of spicy meat dish tonight. AAAHHH!!

I'm in the same exact situation in a condo in NJ. The unit below me is a rental and despite my allergies, the owner below has rented to another smoker - a heavy smoker. I've tried everything and am probably selling my condo for some smoke free air.

In a recent attempt to block out some of the smoke I've discovered some of the places it comes from.
A. as mentioned above, it comes up through places where there are common holes in the walls such as sink pipes and washer/dryer pipes. You can try sealing those ares with spray insulation ("Great Stuff") - I've discovered that the area then needs to be lined with caulk to really block the smoke. In my experience, the foam itself is not enough.

B. The smoke does indeed travel through the walls, the more I seal one area, the more it travels somewhere else. In my case it gets in through places like outlets and I think her ceiling fixtures. I don't know the layout of your place but the concrete under my carpets does not go all the way through; it only goes to the walls. In other words, there is a break in my flooring at the walls - between the walls are wooden 2x4s. So the smoke has room to come up into my walls.

C. Lastly I've been told that her bathroom ceiling fan may not actually lead to anywhere outside, that it probably vents her air under my floor. I have no idea what to do about this.

I've spent hours trying to construct ways to keep her smoke out but am still unsuccessful. One last thing someone suggested is to have a contractor come in to see if they can do anything. May save you the trouble of moving or it may end up in a lot of wasted money. Good luck, I empathize 100%.

Smokers, please read those last two messages and then reply if it's acceptable to smoke in your own home.

I lived for 15 years with my father who thought that chain smoking in his study was okay as long as he had the door closed. The house smelt like an ashtray - he couldn't smell it of course.

My aunt chain has chain smoked all her life and has an asthmatic son. He kept getting attacks but she would never believe the doctors that she was responsible as she never 'smoked in the same room as him'. She still smokes.

Pity these addicts. But pity more the people who have to live with fifty metres of them.

In case there is any doubt about the "nuisance" of second hand smoke... Second hand smoke is currently the third leading cause of death in the US and is a Class A carcinogen. Yes, a bit of a nuisance, I'd say.

Take off and nuke them from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure

Wow, I totally didn't even think that my upstairs neighbor could be bothered by my smoke. I hope that she hasn't been but considering how old my apartment building is, she probably has and I won't be smoking inside anymore. Thanks for the education, and my sympathies for having to deal with this.

Smokers are NASTY PEOPLE!! My neighbor smokes and I can smell that nasty stale stench in our bedroom, and it's even worse in the closet....so friggin nasty. I don't know what to do to get rid of this nasty smell. It's a combination of nasty smoking neighbor and horrible condo building.

I am getting smoke in my condo that I own. My bird just came down with lung cancer. No telling what it's doing to me. This aggrevates me because I can't afford another place to move.

To Jules and anyone who smokes, The big deal that everyone here and in the world is referring to about smoking, since you dont understand is that smoking causes disease and kills. So when you smoke and it affects other people you are in fact contributing to this whether its in your home or anywhere it affects others.

Dont take offense or stay ignorant. Educate yourself and realize that smoking kills and causes disease. People are concerned about their health and they HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT BE AFFECTED BY HARMFUL BEHAVIOR SUCH AS SMOKING.

Why would anyone be so ignorant as to not understand that?

Why are all smokers ignorant and nasty?

Its because smoking addiction as well as both physical and mental disease.

It's really wierd that smokers really don't know how bad they smell.

Really really really wierd - because it's so obvious to everyone else.

It's also really wierd how polite people are.