Hoo, boy, I opened a can of worms with my post last week, Home Ec.: What is Your Housework Worth? The subject definitely struck a nerve in a lot of readers, who scorned me, commiserated with me, and offered sage advice on how they manage things at home. The topic of housework spun off into such an interesting debate that I thought it worthwhile to follow up.
First, though, you might be wondering: Why is this on a design blog? As those of you who regularly follow Apartment Therapy know, we cover a lot more than just design. We offer tips on cleaning and organizing, as well as advice for simplifying and enhancing your life at home. After all, no matter how beautifully your space is decorated, if it is not cared for with love and respect, it will lose its luster. The same goes for relationships.
I wrote about housework using my own life as an example not to solicit specific-to-me relationship advice, which was most readily offered. I went with a personal narrative because I am a modern, open-minded woman who's grappling with age-old issues for the first time.
Some of the comments on my original post made me feel like I failed Feminism 101 — like if someone were to mention The Feminine Mystique, I'd assume it was a perfume I should wear to smell pretty for my man when he brings home the bacon. In fact, I know exactly what the pioneering women before me sacrificed and achieved. And for the record, my husband-to-be is not a caveman and I am neither a sucker nor a servant.
If you, unlike me, have found the perfect balance in managing your home, money, and primary relationship, congratulations! But here's the thing: That's simply not the case for many people. How do I know that? Aside from anecdotal evidence collected from friends, family and readers, there's a whole lot of research about this stuff out there.
For example, this excellent feature from the New York Times, recommended by a reader, discusses just how difficult it is to truly establish a 50/50 balance at home, especially when kids are in the picture. The story, published in 2008, also includes some startling statistics about the lopsided division of household labor that persists across class lines.
"The most recent figures from the University of Wisconsin's National Survey of Families and Households show that the average wife does 31 hours of housework a week while the average husband does 14 — a ratio of slightly more than two to one. If you break out couples in which wives stay home and husbands are the sole earners, the number of hours goes up for women, to 38 hours of housework a week, and down a bit for men, to 12, a ratio of more than three to one. That makes sense, because the couple have defined home as one partner's work (emphasis added).
"But then break out the couples in which both husband and wife have full-time paying jobs. There, the wife does 28 hours of housework and the husband, 16. Just shy of two to one, which makes no sense at all."
Puzzling, right? Among the many reasons for this imbalance — cited both in the Times and by several Apartment Therapy readers — is that one partner, often the woman, has higher standards of cleanliness and is unyieldingly set in his or her ways of doing housework. That's something we can all work on, both by reevaluating our own standards and by reaching a compromise with our partners about just how precisely things get done around the house. Not everybody thinks cleaning grout weekly with a toothbrush is a worthwhile endeavor.
Also contributing to the imbalance is traditional gender roles, a topic way too tricky to get into here. The issue can be succinctly illustrated with this comment from a reader: "When my brother was about six he asked my mother if she'd teach him to iron. She said he wouldn't need to learn as he'd have a wife to do that."
That sounds like a line straight out of the '50s, but the attitude is still somewhat prevalent today. I love this advice from one of our readers: "Mostly we need to make sure we are teaching our sons and daughters the basics of taking care of themselves, their dwelling, their money, etc. so they will not be dependent on the willingness of others." Amen to that! Just as important, in my mind, is treating all chores equally, instead of labeling them "boy" and "girl" chores, which seemed to be the standard when I was a kid. (I'm talking to you, Grandma!)
In actuality, the domestic arrangement I described has less to do with gender than trying to work out a system that feels fair to both of us. I do more housework because he works way more hours at his job than I do. I agree with the many readers who said marriage shouldn't require itemizing to measure value, but doesn't it still necessitate negotiation from time to time? My guy happens to respond to numbers.
As for figuring out how to divide housework at home, what I gleaned from our readers is that assigning chores based on interest, ability and free time seems to work pretty well. If you hate vacuuming and your husband doesn't mind, that's his chore. If he's a terrible cook but you can whip up a satisfying soup without so much as a recipe, that's your chore. If your partner's excuse is that he or she always "forgets" to do chores, by all means put a checklist on the fridge, or — gasp — nag away. No, you shouldn't have to, but such is life. Whatever works for both partners is the way to go. And, if you can afford it, pay someone else to help clean. That's what I'm learning.
Another part of my original post that caused a huge outcry was the mention of how finances play into the distribution of housework (specifically, my fiancé pointed out that he "pays for more," which outraged several readers). Did anyone else see the episode of How I Met Your Mother in which a fight about dirty dishes escalates because of a similar comment regarding making more money? Clearly, my guy isn't the only one to have stepped right into that minefield.
In his defense, he wasn't insinuating that he has the upper hand because of it; only that per our agreement, I would do most of the housework and we would consider our contributions to the mortgage and bills equal. Our setup generally doesn't seem unfair to me, except when I complain about too much housework and he complains about paying for more.
Quite a few readers commented that they wouldn't feel like they were in an equal partnership if "mine" and "yours" hadn't become "ours" after marriage, including income and assets. That's not the only way families manage money, however. I'm not even sure it's the norm. Some couples keep their finances entirely separate (according to this article, it's the American way) and some do a mix of sharing and separate. One size doesn't fit all.
Finances, to me, are the trickiest part of being in a long-term relationship and owning a home together. My fiancé and I have very different life experiences with money, which adds to the difficulty of finding a common ground when it comes to sharing and spending. However, he and I are aware that we have issues and have planned all along to attend a premarital workshop to help sort a lot of this stuff out. Conversations about money can be uncomfortable, but not as uncomfortable (or expensive!) as divorce.
I'm writing this not to air my dirty laundry — speaking of which, my man always does his own — but because it's reasonable to assume that some of you out there might be dealing with similar issues. Those of you who have it all figured out should spread your wisdom far and wide because even the "experts" don't always agree. Most come at you with "communication, communication, communication." In Why Marriages Succeed or Fail: And How You Can Make Yours Last, on the other hand, bestselling author John Gottman says communication isn't the answer. Now I'm confused!
Thank you to those of you who shared your thoughts and advice on what a good marriage feels like, including the reader who summed up her home life as such: "I think we both are appreciative of each other and what we both bring to the table, both a nice home and a nice income, there is no score sheet, it just works if that makes sense." Yep, that makes perfect sense. That's exactly where we hope to end up. We just need the know-how to get there.
There were also a few comments that questioned the integrity of my relationship. Some folks came across as judgmental — it's easy to be opinionated when you're anonymous — but I imagine most probably meant well, even if I finally resorted to frustration and sarcasm after one too many suggestions that I rethink getting married. This was the first time in my career that I've become so engaged — no pun intended — after writing something. Obviously, it's an important subject.
My takeaway from the emotional aftermath of my original post is that many of us struggle with this balancing act of love and marriage and all its day-to-day realities. There's no point in faking a fairy tale because we can all learn from each other and gain insight beyond our own experiences and expectations. I deeply value people who are open and honest about their home life and who admit that there is no definitively "right" way to do things. If only it were that easy!
Interestingly, the point of that original post was simply to illustrate the monetary value of housework if it were outsourced. Had I written something impersonal and just linked to the finance article, we probably never would've gotten into this conversation. Don't you think it's one worth having?
(Image: Shutterstock)

White Enamel Flatwa...
Did anyone mention how agreeable and fun to read both your articles were ? I enjoyed them because they don't shy from the real issues and don't make everything sound easy, because it isn't. But it's worth it in the end, the end being that point where our houses serve as great supports for being together, and not fighting issues.
Having no universal wisdom to share (I shared my experience on your last post, and that's the only thing I can do), I wait impatiently for you Americans to wake up and comment !
I'm really sorry you feel like you have to defend your relationship to the entire world just because you used yourself as an example in your previous article. It is really none of anybody's business how like or unlike a "traditional" household any couple is or how they choose to divide the work.
Personally, I struggle with this a because since my husband and I both have full-time jobs, we try to divide up the housework fairly equally. But. We are not both contributing equally financially because he makes practically three times what I do. So I still feel like I'm a dependent wife, even though he doesn't care.
Well done AMS! Totally hear you sister...
Great post. I read many of the comments on your previous post, and found them to be quite illuminating. The truth appears to be that for many/most of us, figuring out the balance of housework and finances in the context of a relationship is an ongoing process. What's "right" depends on the couple. I know I still struggle with getting my SO to "notice" and take action when our place is messy, but the other side of it is that he will help me if I ask. Relationships are work in themselves, after all.
I wasn't offended by your previous article at all. I thought it a fair observation and question. I too grew up detesting the chore of washing dishes EVERY night while my brother was in charge of trash "when needed" but never every night. I couldn't wait until I grew up so that I wouldn't have to wash another dis,h EVER!
Turns out, I'm a single grown up who is responsible for cleaning the dishes, taking out the trash and the entire upkeep of my apartment. Womp Womp Womp. Now I can't wait until I have someone else to take out the trash, lift heavy objects, and all the other things that I don't associate with womanly chores. If our circumstances require us to reevaluate who is responsible for what, that's ok too. Will it be a perfect balance, probably not, I doubt anything will be exactly 50/50. As long as I feel appreciated, who should care but us?
Last thing: Yep, I'm from MS. Yep, I was raised by old school southern women. Nope, I would not have had it any other way.
Nicole
www.coquettelife.com
I don't see the controversy. If you had to hire someone WEEKLY to do all the cleaning, laundry, ironing, tidying, organizing, etc., that is one costly gig.
I'll echo what Stephanie 817 said--any aspect of a relationship has to be evaluated and changed as necessary. What worked the first five years of our marriage doesn't work now because we've thrown a toddler into the mix and my husband co-founded an engineering company (which means he basically has zero free time). If someone were to look at our division of labor, it would look like a very traditional set-up and like I'd handed over my feminist card. But it is what is necessary and what works for us right now. He still doesn't notice dirty toilets or a messy house so to keep from going crazy, I hired a cleaning service (discussed with him but it's not as if he would argue).
@À-CHACUN-SON-GOÛT: Honestly, it NEVER occurred to me that my original post would be so controversial. Only when I saw that first comment did I realize what I was in for ...
This is a great post on such an emotionally charged subject. I wish people didn't feel they had to judge or offer holier-than-thou suggestions.
AMS, if you're not already reading it, you should totally check out http://apracticalwedding.com/. This topic has come up several times there, and the commenters at that sight are smart, engaging and supportive. Here's a whole post devoted to the subject, and one that goes so well with this post: http://apracticalwedding.com/2011/02/reclaiming-wife-chores/
On the Feminist front, I think it's important to remember that the feminists before us didn't fight to make it so we wouldn't have to do chores. They fought so we'd have a choice. Also, it's important for *everyone* to remember that what works for one couple won't work for the next. Everyone has to develop their own definition for what works, and that definition may change throughout your marriage. It looks like you're already off to a great start, AMS.
*site* not *sight* ... sigh
@TheModernGal: I *just* discovered that site yesterday! I'm ordering the book, too!
I agree that this is a very interesting topic. And a constant struggle/negotiation of sorts, so to hear how other people do or don't deal with it is kind of fascinating. My bf and I make nearly the same income. We both work 40 hours and have side businesses. Time and money are tight for both of us, but ultimately, as long as we both have mutual respect for each other and the relationship, we both try to keep the other from feeling too overwhelmed at any given time when it comes to house chores. We both pitch in. If I'm over exhausted and borderline insane, he will make dinner. If I've got extra energy and more time at home, I'll paint the bathroom one night. We keep our money apart outside of one joint account that we both deposit into to split the mortgage, and prefer this method. If one of us has extra income at any point, we most often end up either contributing that to the household, (still need that living room rug...) or else putting it into growing our businesses with the idea that they will eventually make us more financially comfortable.
I've been thinking about the original post a lot and read every comment too. It's a huge issue but the thing is, it's so specific to each household, each individual, each relationship and so every situation will be different. I'm with Carrie8 - I consider myself a real feminist and fiercely independent but I moved country when I married and haven't started working here yet. I earn nothing and yep, do most of the housework. Trust me, not a position I EVER thought would be in but for now it's cool. The key is: Do you resent what you're doing (or the amount the other party is NOT doing)? If so, it's an issue. If not, you're fine, even if your set up seems like some downtrodden domestic slave situation on paper. It probably helps that I do less now than in some of the scummy shared flats I have lived in or probably even as a kid with 3 messy siblings who, unlike me, didn't ask for a better family vacuum cleaner for her 12th birthday. The best bit of this is that I cannot stop laughing at my imagined reaction of AnnaMaria's partner to this level of response. The poor man is probably scared to walk out the door in fear of a mob of ATers beating him in the street for that original uber-tactless comment about his earning prowess... that, right there, should make him never mention such things ever again.
Annamaria, thank you for this post and the original. As someone who is also trying to figure out life with her future husband, I can totally relate to what you're going through (as I'm sure MANY can!). Knowing how to keep balance in a home and in a relationship isn't some innate, automatic instinct, nor is it always easy. Like anything worthwhile, it takes time, trial, and error to figure out. But like you, I'm confident that our love and commitment to each other will be a big help. We'll get there. Reading your thoughts and your readers has been enlightening (in many ways), and given me a lot to consider as my partner and I sort through our roles and responsibilities.
I would also just like to applaud you for your bravery, both while writing the original post and while responding to your readers, through your comments and this post. Commenters on AT and similar sites are clearly very forthcoming with their opinions, so much so that every reader is their own brand of expert; this is what we all love about the AT community. However, it was unfair to turn that 'expertise' onto your personal life--something none of us are experts on. I don't blame you for getting mama-bear protective of yourself and your relationship and your right as a person to find your own way, and I hope you are proud of yourself for doing so. Your devotion your fiance (and his to you) is evident, and I'm sure it will be an asset in your marriage.
I love both posts and the honest discussion. These aren't abstract issues, but every day real issues which is what writing about your personal experience converys. I don't think you can separate housework from issues of money and class. I grew up in a blue collar family and was often tasked as the only girl (and oldest child) with doing A LOT of housework--which I hated with the passion of a 1000 burning suns. My dad would stress that I needed to learn these skills to take care of myself as an adult (which is absolutely true) to which I responded that when I was an adult I would make enough money to have a maid. This also turned out to be true. If a man thought I should be cleaning instead of paying someone to do it that would be an absolute deal breaker to me.
HA, I wish I had higher standards about what the required household cleanliness level. The person in our relationship with higher standards is definitely my husband, not me. The "Oh, women just WANT it to be cleaner so they clean more" sounds like a stupid excuse that's blaming women for housework, not society's tendency to land more of the work on them.
I read through and commented back on the original post (about the article you linked to, which, form my reading, was the point of your post!) and honestly- aside from the typical snide commenters on here out for blood- the comments didn't seem like a personal attack on you. And those same snarky people who did attack you probably will on here too- that's just their thing. Don't take it personally and don't give them more to criticize.
I (admittedly) missed the first article, and just read both today--very well written, and brave on your part as well. They definitely made me think about my relationship and how we divvy things up! It seems that every time we go through a transition (occasionally with snarky comments about money along the way), we re-negotiate all of this. The time when I was working 60 hours per week and writing a dissertation at the same time did not go so well...
Anyway, we've dropped the idea of money, splitting things up exactly evenly, being super gender-neutral, etc. He genuinely likes yard work; for him it's sort of zen, while I want to poke my eyes out. I love cooking, he can't make a pancake. Doesn't bother us that these are "traditional" chores for our gender. Balance is something we work on/struggle with all the time!
I think the most important thing to remember with coming up with a balance for your home and relationship is that it needs to feel like a balance for each of you, not just look like one on paper or to other people if you were to write out your individual chores and workload.
My husband and I work two entirely different jobs at our family business. I work in the office, shorter hours, doing clerical and odd work, getting bills out, talking to subcontractors, etc. My husband works out in the field, often doing intense labor for longer hours. However, he knows I deal with a lot of other stresses with my father being ill etc. Our balance with household chores is one that feels right to us. I do more chores, but he does all the chores I despise. It sounds petty but it works for us and if he doesn't mind doing the chores I hate like loading the dishwasher, cleaning the litter box, taking out the trash and making the bed, I'd rather him do those few things andthen me do twice as many things I don't mind doing. With my fewer work hours but longer chore hours, we both feel like we work an equal amount. I make half as much as he does but I also bring things to the table that make up for that other half. He does not resent me in the least and I do not resent him. He considers us to be making the same amount of money because my house work saves us the expense of eating out more or hiring someone to clean. Plus I coupon the shit out of our groceries and never pay full price for anything, something he wouldn't care to take the time to do.
There is no right answer about sharing chores, or money, but there is one thing that should be completely true in all good relationships. The amount of money you make should never be connected with your worth to the other person and you should never evaluate your love for someone based on it either. Many would say that isn't true, and money can certainly cause detrimental problems in relationships, but behind every money issue are greater ones, issues of insecurity, power struggles, lying, greed, and selfishness. Money isn't a deal breaker, people are.
This is why I'm not living with anyone until marriage. And I'm not getting married unless my husband-to-be and I agree on a fair division of labor. The only fair division of labor if both of us are working 40 hours per week is 50/50 division of labor OR paying a cleaning service. End of story.
I lived with my ex-boyfriend for several years, and it always seemed like I did most of the housework AND actually worked more hours. Not a fair deal. What was I thinking? Sigh, young love.
I realized my response might sound a little holier than thou and preachy so I wanted to mention that our balance came after years of tearful discussions about me feeling unappreciated and undervalued. Screaming matches over him coming home to a clean home and not even noticing before promptly dumping his dirty socks and clothes onto the floor in the living room, and how much it embarrassed me when people came over and there was just more home chores to take care of than I could on my own because he wasn't help prevent the messes. Helping to prevent messes was a great turning point in our home chore discussion because just adhering to simple house rules like putting change in a dish instead of on the counter, or putting clothes in a hamper lessened the chore load ten fold and made us both feel like we were being heard and not scolded. But gosh there were some wicked disagreements and it took so long to get to a happy place in our home in terms of work. The comforting thing is I hear it isn't unusual in the least!
I enjoyed both articles and appreciated that other were feeling this way b/c I have always struggled with this. I love a clean happy home but sometimes feel like I have zero personal time since any down time I do have is spent cooking and cleaning. I also have an issue with asking for help since I feel like I am being a "mom" so instead I dont ask and then get mad that I do too much. I am lucky that my partner does help but I always end up doing more because I have higher standards as others mentioned.
My SIL and her husband both work full time jobs. Still, she did all of the housework??!! Crazy making! I told her "Why not hire a cleaning person?!" She finally did. Thank Goodness! I also have a weekly cleaning person. Much cheaper than therapy or divorce.
i loved both posts. it's a great addition to the design side of AT, and really brings it back down to a place you can go for overall home advice, not just design advice. because as we all know, a house does not make a home. it's the time you spend in it with the people you love that really makes it home to you.
e someone has already adressed this but I'm at work and don't have the time to read every comment (<---kinda funny considering the topic), but it should also be noted that men STILL make more than women on average last time I checked. If someone has the time to look up info on that please do. It would be interesting to see the most recent numbers on that.!
Oops, the beginning of that said: I'm sure...someone has already...
I'll get back to bringing home a little of the bacon now :)
@LaceyLove : According to recent reports from the General Accountability Office (GAO), women make about 80 cents on the dollar. BOO!
Wow! It definitely is one of those topics that gets people going, but everyone is different in this situation. It surprised me how many people said "in marriage all income is OUR income"! That's a very different way of looking at it than I would have, but obviously life experiences play a big part in this. At the end of the day, it's about a couple (or family) being happy. You work out what makes everyone happy and call it even for now. If somebody changes their mind in the future, you talk about it again. And learn to forget it. If your biggest issue is who pays what percentage of the mortgage, or if the house is always spotless, then you're very lucky. It's a privilege to have the time and energy to think about such issues instead of say, survival
I had a "feminist" boyfriend who had "low cleanliness standards" that I ended up doing all the housework for. I dumped him for a "sexist" boyfriend who does the dishes and the laundry and is now learning to cook. His standards are probably higher than mine. I love him. I want to clone him and share him with my friends. You get the treatment you accept, Ladies.
I think some of the commentators here are confusing TIME and MONEY.
The real issue is TIME. My partner has an intense full-time job, while I go to school and work part time. I do more housework because I have more free hours at home than he does - he pays for more of our stuff, so as to make a fair contribution to our household.
It would be a totally different story if we both worked full-time, however. In that case, as a feminist and general favorer of fairness, I would certainly insist on splitting the housework equally, regardless of who made more money.
During the holidays my family came over for lunch. My mom and I were sitting on the couch together talking about how similar my husband is to my father when I said, "But mine cleans" and my mom replied, "But mine doesn't notice it's dirty". I was pointing out what I felt was a great trait in my husband (the fact that he cleans), and she was pointing out what she found as a great trait in her husband (the fact that he isn't picky). Each relatioship is different, and when you can celebrate what your mate brings to the table vs. what they don't bring I think everyone is happier.
@LaceyLove & AnnaMaria Stephens:
I found this article interesting about the gender gap of income inequality. Basically if you are young & childless woman living in a city there are greater chances that you make more than your male peers,. Unforturnately, women do still make 80% to men overall. Gender income inequality is a more complex question than your given sex. Isn't also the life choices that are made. I'm not sure, but I imagine that it's still mostly women who take leave when a child is born & mostly mothers (though anecdotal evidence I've seen says this maybe changing) decide to stay at home to take care of their children if their means allow. Kind of off topic, but I do think its a part of the societal pressures of the woman in the relationship to keep house & take care of the kids.
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html
Thank you for the follow-up from the previous post. I was curious how this thing would turn out. My husband and I are still trying to balance things out even after 7 years, but it gets hard when you add kids, and your financial situation changes. I don't handle any of the finances, I don't even look at the accounts, I trust my husband to do all that. I just ask before I buy, or we have set spending limits, we share our money. I know this isn't the setup for everyone but it works for us, we both try to do ask much housework as we can when we can, (trying to get our oldest to pick up as well) but we are kinda lax on that, and just make sure the basics get done regularly and both tackle something big on the weekends
Oh I was going to add that talking about your problems up front is the best thing for us as far as keeping it together. Sometimes fight incur but then they get talked out, sounds easy but if marriage was easy than the divorce rate wouldn't be so high
It seems like housework and division of labor in the household always strikes a nerve. It contradicts what the younger generations were taught about themselves and about what their lives and marriages were supposed to be like. I was one of those folks too. When I got married, I assumed it would be equal division of labor, that we would both be working full time and would share the chores depending on who had what time and what desire. It was like that at first, when we were both leaving the house every day.
Since becoming a full-time author, the household dynamic has changed, and while it rankled me at first, it actually makes quite a bit of sense. Like most people, I operate by the 80/20 principle, and when allowed to govern my own time distribution, I finish my paying work quickly and early, leaving the day free to do whatever else. My husband, on the other hand, spends his entire day at work in a very stress-intensive job.
While we both earn about the same amount, I do more of the housework, almost all of it. My reasoning is that my husband gives more than simply time to his job, but also his emotional and mental well-being, so the cost to him has an intangible factor as well as a tangible one. Part of our martial contract is that we each pull our own weight equally, and while yes, we both work full-time jobs, there is more to the division of labor in the household than simply that of income.
It's sort of a give and take. He works very hard and has a stable income and gives us both medical benefits. I work very hard, but my own work is goal-oriented, so I can finish my tasks in a quarter of the time, and my income is less steady than his. To make up for that, housework is my other task, and honestly, it doesn't take that much time out of my schedule.
Also, this is unsolicited advice, and maybe I'm wrong here, but you and your husband really need to sit down and decide what the balance of power is between the two of you, and do it soon. Power-struggles in marriage will not go away on their own, and I say that from unpleasant experience.
I have never gotten this debate. When I got married (late in life) there really became no mine/his. Everything is ours. I stopped working when my son was born and never went back so I do the housework. On the weekends when he has time I want him to spend that with US- not doing dishes or laundry. I have my housework mapped out like a job- because in reality it IS my job. Everything is done before he gets home so we can relax and spend time together as a family, and we don't do housework on the weekends or days off.
We share the money and we discuss big purchases. We don't fight. We might disagree but we're freaking adults. I have never thought that marriage should be hard. If it is there's something wrong. Everyday might not be the best day ever...but it's never hard to be married to him.....I married my best friend and the respect and love we have for each other has nothing to do with his job, our money or who does the dishes.
Oy, that first post got a little crazy! I was surprised by the response there as well! This is an issue in our marriage and I have no doubt that everyone struggles with it to some degree. The truth is, we're both pretty bad at keeping up with housework, it just bothers me more. And my husband would rather spend all morning Saturday cleaning and ignore it during the work week, while I would rather do bits and pieces every day and have my weekend off. I find that I often don't give him much credit for what he DOES do around the house and I think if I were more vocal and appreciative of his contribution, he'd be more eager to get it done. (This realization makes me feel like crap...)
Great follow up; thanks!
Bravo! And to be fair, I'm going through the same issues with my own husband to be and it's great to know that I'm not alone!
I'm sure the original article led to some great discussions with your future husband!
One thing that has helped my husband and I (also a scientist) is depersonalizing the chores and money.
We use FlyLady to tell us what to do for cleaning. I get the emails and usually do whatever mission she is yelling at us to do that day. We also set up routines and posted them so the mundane tasks get done daily. My husband likes to come home and go through his routine list and zone out for awhile, whereas I like to do the deeper cleaning tasks. It works really well for us and there isn't resentment building towards each other over stupid chores, because it's a neutral party telling us what to do.
We also use YNAB to budget and keep track of our money. We set it up at the beginning of the month together and then YNAB yells at us if we get out of line. Again, it's neutral numbers telling us what we can and can't do, not one of us being the money bossy pants. We do pool all of our income. After all, our family is a team and we're working towards goals we've discussed together, so it seems weird to have a his/her money. It's team money!
We got along very well before we started using these systems, but they have pretty much eliminated division of labor and finances as sources of conflict. Which is invaluable when you're both sleep deprived parents of two boys under two!
I liked both these posts - hot topics! I feel like I'm always struggling to get my significant other to help out around the house. I think our problem is the different standards - I'm no clean freak, but vacuuming once a week isn't overkill! I'm convinced that getting a dishwasher will solve 80% of our issues.
I grew up hearing that I could be anything and do whatever I wanted. Then we'd go to Grandma's house and all that went out the window - women cooked and cleaned up after dinner, while the men sat and chatted. It drove me bonkers. I never wanted to be a housewife like my mom, but I'm finding her influence on me runs deep. She has set standards that I'd like to keep without turning in my feminist card, as you put it, Such a struggle!
I think as long as both parties appreciate the contributions to the household economy (both paid work, and house work), then you're on the right path.
I have to thank you for writing these posts. They really got me thinking and reflecting on my relationship, which I think was the same for a lot of AP readers.
I just want to say that you keeping your finances separate does not reflect badly on your marriage! I understand people writing about how THEY would feel about such an arrangement, but I take issue with using combined/separate finances as the criteria for whether or not your relationship/marriage is 'good' or 'real'.
I also have to say that when I was a full time student with part time work and my bf a fulltime worker, I did a lot more fo the housework and that was a sticking point for us. Now we both work fulltime and that in itself makes a huge difference to how we organise chores. It was always the case that I would cook and he would clean up afterwards. He would wash the clothes and I would usually do most other things. But now things like grocery shopping are done together every week because I don't have time to do them alone.
I also agree with what other people have said about strengths/weaknesses. For example I can't drive, he does all the driving. I'm a better and more efficient cook so I do the cooking and make the grocery lists. He waters the plants because he remembers to, etc etc. This works for us,
I'm going to throw in my input as a single person. I work (from home, luckily) and I maintain an absolutely immaculate house. I usually cook, although sometimes it's just a salad - but I'm sure couples take that route frequently as well. I do rent, so I don't have yardwork. I have 2 dogs who must be walked and bathed and fed and attended to medicinally and all that. And a cat, so there's a litter box in the mix. I keep up with all of this all by my lonesome. And I never really felt like I should complain about all of this time I spend taking care of myself.
I do feel like, if I suddenly took a man into my home, I would have more work on my hands. Even though cooking for one, shopping for one, isn't actually more burdensome than doing so for two. I am 100% certain that bringing a man into my home would run up the amount of cleaning and other work needing to be done EXPONENTIALLY - and that's being said even in the face of a couple of really, REALLY needy dogs already here.
Based on past experience, men generate more mess than they think they do, and more than women do (because the concept of cleaning as you go is generally lost on them). They also do less than half of their share of the work (because, as has been observed over and over again in connection with this issue, THEY JUST DON'T SEE THE MESS THE SAME WAY WOMEN DO).
Again, in summary, I can work and clean and cook and still relax and enjoy my home and my dogs and all that as a single person, and complaining about how much time I spend on the housework side never even occurs to me. Because WHO AM I GOING TO COMPLAIN TO??? The concept of complaining about it only seems to arise amongst those of you who have someone to complain to, those who are living with another human being. Meh. Although I acknowledge that cohabitating generates additional work for you, ultimately I have no sympathy. Obviously you're getting something out of it or you wouldn't be doing it.
Here's the deal with marriage. It's 50/50, but that's the average. Sometimes it's 70/30 or 90/10, Between different issues, it can go either way. Sometimes it's 90 in my favor, and others the 10. Hubby washes the dishes and I clean the rest of the kitchen. AND I am a dog rescuer, so we have five dogs at the moment and he gets up extra early to walk them so I can sleep in.
I actually was surprised at the comments from the first post. I took away much more of the financial aspect of the article. I have read many articles trying to determine the "worth" of the household tasks, and frankly, in my experience- they are so inaccurate. My husband and I are two careers and two kids, a dog and a house. (We make almost exactly the same amount). We are lucky enough to be able to have help to do the majority of tasks outlined. Groceries, cooking, basic cleaning, kids to soccer/parties whatever. We call her a household assistant. The cost to hire someone to do this...in the san francisco bay area (which is a very expensive part of the country) is nowhere near the 90K in the article. Because of course you aren't hiring a culinary chef, professional maid service, limo driver (with car), etc. You are hiring general skills, none that take any education, really. Maturity, organization, safety, etc. You can also set expectations for performance for a person, and of course terminate them if they are not meeting them. Can't do that with a spouse- haha. I think the problem is that people want to quantify the value of someone who does things "with love" which of course, isn't possible.
i am so tired of women complaining about housework. especially when their husbands work and basically pay for their lifestyle. Housework is NOT harder than a 9 - 5 job. It isn't. And I am a female.
There seems to be a shift towards women being the "kept" woman- ie not working outside the home, staying home, pretending to be "mumpreneurs" starting some kind of craft business, when really it is all funded by the husband. These same women then complain about being too busy with their "business" to "juggle" housework. If you choose to be at home, then you have no right to complain about housework any more than your husband has to complain about his own job.
Really when we talk about women wanting it "all" these days, we are talking about women wanting it all DONE FOR THEM.
Babyfishmouth - No one sounded like they were complaining - hearing how others handle near-universal issues of cohabitating couples can give perspective and ideas on how to resolve problems. You keep an immaculate house easily because you have no one dropping dirty socks, shoes, newspapers, etc. everywhere. Regardless of whether or not I take my shoes off at the door, put my dishes in the dishwasher, throw my clothes in the hamper, sweep the floor every day, cook healthy meals, if the other people in my apartment don't do the same, there's a ton to clean up every single day. Sure, I love my son and husband, and I work my a** off to go to school full time, work part time, cook, grocery shop, etc., but I whine a bit when I get overwhelmed. This post gave some people a place to vent productively. Do you ever complain about your job, about the weather where you live, about your landlord? Unless you're a weirdo, you have at least once or twice. I'll throw it back at you: obviously you're getting something out of it or you wouldn't be doing it. Same thing here.
@HappyWhenSkiesAreGrey: I wrote these posts, and I work nearly full-time from home, so your comment isn't really directed at me, even though I do complain on occasion, but then so does my fiance when he's had a tough day at work. My guess is that most of these "mompreneurs" you speak of aren't sitting around eating bon-bons and laughing as they drain their hardworking husbands' bank accounts buying shoes and baubles. Do you have any actual evidence to back up your assertion that more women are trying to be "kept" women these days? Don't get me wrong. They exist. But I don't think there's some sweeping movement. Most of the creative stay-at-home moms I know spend way more time chasing around kids and cleaning puke than leisurely crafting the day away.
Also, THANK YOU for all the lovely comments. You guys made my day!
Honestly, I think it's high time AT started talking about this. There are so many posts about *how* to clean a bathroom, but none about *who* cleans it.
House cleaning does come up when I talk with girlfriends - the messes our men make, who does more, etc. These are private, not public, conversations. I feel like everyone talks about this behind closed doors; like it's a dirty secret that feminism hasn't solved all of our problems yet. We desperately want to think of ourselves - and be seen by others - as strong, independent, smart women who wouldn't put up with an unequal partnership - even if it's 49/51. And we hold other women to a similar standard.
I know for me, just being the one who brings up housework in my relationship makes me feel a bit antiquated and queasy. I have ended up teaching my husband how to do many household chores because his parents simply never did. As a woman, if you do more of the housework, you might feel or be seen as being servile; but if you want him to do more, you feel like you're "nagging" - and is there a more insulting dynamic than that?
By the way, don't the majority of comments for both of these posts seem to be written by women? It's hard to tell sometimes with pseudonyms, and it's possible that the majority of *all* AT comments are from women, but it would be interesting to know. I would certainly be interested to hear more of the male perspective on this.
And here's the macro view from a film called Who's Counting: Marilyn Waring demystifies the language of economics by defining it as a value system in which all goods and activities are related only to their monetary value. As a result, unpaid work (usually performed by women) is unrecognized while activities that may be environmentally and socially detrimental are deemed productive. Waring maps out an alternative vision based on the idea of time as the new currency. http://www.nfb.ca/film/whos_counting
Also, I would LOVE to see some scientific studies on this - do the majority of women *really* see messes more than the majority of men (i.e. have a different standard of "clean")? Certainly there are couples where this isn't the case. Why is that? Is this due to personality type, brain chemistry, hormone levels, childhood experiences...? I've seen some really dumb studies out there; certainly someone could study something that affects so many millions of people on a daily basis. Of course if this were something that had been confounding men for this long, we would have tombs of research on it already...
@StrawberryPie: A good friend of mine posits that "women tend to have higher standards of cleanliness because we are the ones *held* to higher standards of cleanliness. Walk into a messy house and who gets blamed? Probably the wife, even if her husband stays home full time while she works." I suspect it has much to do with childhood, too. I agree that it would be interesting to see some rigorous studies on the subject, though I wonder how one would even go about that, because most people probably couldn't explain why or how they ended up that way. (I also know a lot of guys who are meticulously clean!)
Stay at home motherhood is a full time job. Anyone who thinks SAHMs sit around eating bonbons is either delusional or has never had to care for young children for any length of time. If I were a SAHM, I'd feel it was fair to do the majority of day to day things, but why should my husband be totally exempt from helping out? This isn't the 1950s. It's "easy" to do housework when you don't have young children to look after or a baby to nurse.
I'm sorry you were offended by the comments. I think a lot of people's alarms went off because of your fiance's comments about him making more money. You did say that the acticle didn't accurately describe your relationship. I think your time is as valuable as his time. If he doesn't see that then I would rethink the relationship.
First, great initial post and follow up!
I think it's important to remember that relationships aren't "You put in 50%; I'll put in 50%." Each partner needs to give 100%. The hubs (of 10 months) and I both count ourselves lucky that we have the opportunity to make the salaries we make (however low or high they may be) because, let's face it, the economy isn't at an all-time high right now.
Everyone is different; every couple is unique. My husband and I both have 40 hour/week jobs, plus we run 2 side businesses together (with the hopes of eventually being financially able to pay bills without the 40/hr week jobs). Understanding what makes you unique is the first step in making the dynamics work in the relationship, wherein comes the housework. Time is invaluable, especially when it can be spent with family and friends. And at the end of the day, houses get dirty, laundry needs to be done, and bills need to be paid. So do what needs to be done to have a happy home.
These "revelations" did not come easy by any means. Discussions were had and fights were fought. We were both very set in our ways- me with liking things to be clean/him with not noticing for almost 30 years that no, there is not a toilet fairy who scrubs the toilet down while you slept peacefully....or while you played a video game for 1.5 hours! It all takes work- regardless of whether you're dealing with relationships, finances, or housework.
@CheekyCherry: What I wouldn't do for a toilet fairy! :-)
@Lorijo " I have my housework mapped out like a job- because in reality it IS my job. Everything is done before he gets home so we can relax and spend time together as a family, and we don't do housework on the weekends or days off." This is very wise - knowing where to draw a line, and having an official end of the workday for the homemaker as well! I wish I had sussed this out at the beginning of my marriage, it would have saved many arguments. It does annoy me that housework and childcare are often not regarded as a job simply because it is unpaid (even paid cleaners are usually part of an 'invisible' workforce without benefits!) Similarly, I think many 'homemakers' are guilty of underestimating the contribution that their partners make to supporting a pleasant home environment. Of course, if both partners work outside the home, then the household chores should be shared or contracted out.
I believe that learning to "see" when something needs cleaning is like learning to throw. Men 'throwing like girls' is a common phenomenon in other countries, and I've seen shocked U.S. men when they witness it. Likewise with cooking. Why if there are so many male chefs out there so many regular guys can't boil water?! Socially constructed is what I call it. Men can see dirt. No one's asked them to before, and they don't care because someone else has always taken care of it. I think of men like that as stunted beings, actually. My term for them is dinosaurs.
I haven't read all the comments in both posts so I might be repeating, but in my experience, there are two REALLY bad things about housework:
1. You don't have retirement savings of any kind. It's physically and intellectually demanding like a job (heck, it IS a paid job for a lot of people), but it never ends and you cannot retire and collect a pension for your work. When your partner retires s/he sits happily reading books or doing those things s/he always wanted. You, on the other hand, are still in the mill.
2. Most of it only shows when it isn't done. Who stops and notices the kitchen walls are clean? Who is grossed out by the kitchen walls stained? So, you might have spent your afternoon scrubbing that damned wall but you didn't do any laundry or swept the floors, so you might get criticism instead of praise.
It's only an example, and you may say that a little every day goes a long way, but when juggling kids and part time job, it gets hard.
My situation is similar to yours, plus a toddler. I try to institute the policy "no complaining" (if you are unhappy because something is not done, shut up and do it), but with varying degrees of success.
@HAPPYWHENSKIES AREGREY: " Housework is NOT harder than a 9 - 5 job. It isn't. And I am a female."
No, you cannot make such generalizations.
Every person is different, and what seems simple, easy and straightforward to you isn't for others.
I gained this insight in university while having career counseling. Taking the Myers-Briggs test and learning about what the results mean has spelled it all out. Someone who has a high "S" score ("sensory", grounded in reality), particularly when married to a "T" will have your attitude -- i.e., get on with it, it's easy. Someone with a high "N" score (the converse of an "S", meaning "iNtuitive", imaging and creating possibilities) will find daily repetitive chores to be pure torture.
Me, I have a non-existent "S" score and a stratospherically-high "N" score, and so when I am engaged at work doing the "meat" of my work, I am happy and energized. When I am at home folding laundry and picking everybody's crap and relocating it to where it belongs, clearing the table, scrubbing the stove, washing floors... well, I want to break down in tears, or run away. I do it. But I.hate.it. Hate, loathe, and despise it.
However, I am a brilliant cook. I make my husband literally purr at dinner. Because I love figuring out how to make things better, how to make food delicious and seductive. And I love figuring out how to make our home work better -- how to make it as beautiful and functional as possible. But the drudgery of Sisyphus I can do without.
It really is all about time, which is something which hits you in the face when you turn 40. Life is too short to waste doing stuff which you hate, if there is any way around it. Which is why everyone we know seems to hire a cleaner in their mid- '30s. EVERYONE. School teachers, singles, retirees. Our cleaner in Europe was a member of our family, we loved her so much. (how we all miss her now!!).
So check out Myers-Briggs and try to understand where others are coming from.
(And yes, there is research to suggest that Myers-Briggs scores have different distributions in both cultures and genders within those cultures. It's all about how we are wired, and as any parent will tell you, kids come fully wired.)
@Mschatelaine: I love that you mentioned the Myers-Briggs test, which my fiance and I both took when we first started dating. You and I sound a lot alike. I absolutely love cooking and decorating/fixing up/organizing the house. The rest of the housework pretty much sucks. If I also had a job with day-to-day drudgery, I think I'd lose it. However, I enjoy my career tremendously and am good at it and much of the time it doesn't even feel like work. And the reason I am able to keep going as a freelance writer, even though the pay is often appalling, is that my fiance works his very demanding job with long hours. I most definitely appreciate that!
A few months ago, we hired someone to take our extremely exuberant golden retriever (still a puppy at two) for a loooooong romp at the dog park twice a week, which has cut down on the housework (the dog is way messier than any man) and gives me some peace and quiet for writing. As soon as the pup's less crazy, I'm putting that money toward a cleaning service for sure!
Well my only comment about the post above is that I missed the original article and all of the ensuing comments because of the new layout design. Thanks for the link to the original. Now I can actually read what all the fuss is about. Makes me wonder how much other content I'm missing these days...
I read both your articles and I appreciate this follow-up! It takes a brave writer to bring their own family life into the conversation and i appreciate your honesty and forthcoming. well written, well cited, well done. amen!
I think you'll figure out what works when you get married. My hubby and I made the it work by using percentages: our earning potentials have always leapfrogged each other, so when we got married, we decided for each paycheck, 1/3 would go to joint savings, 1/3 to joint checking for communal things like rent, food/travel/entertainment we do together, or car insurance, and the last 1/3 to my personal account to spend however I please - clothes, lunch, haircuts, etc., and same for his paycheck. It's fair because it's a percentage - one doesn't pay a fixed half of the rent on a lower salary - and the proportion doesn't change when one gets a big raise. Chores get done as we go, a lot of times according to preference (he loves to and clean after the animals but doesn't like to prepare meals from scratch, and vice versa), and if we can, we do them together. Maybe for a couple where one doesn't bring home an income at all, the total salary could be distributed something like 1/4 joint saving, 1/4 joint checking, 1/4 "mine" and 1/4 "yours" with corresponding breakdown for chores: since one spouse is contributing 3/4 of the income toward the good of the couple, the one who doesn't get a paycheck can contribute to 3/4 of the chores. That way you are both contributing similar proportions of what you bring to the relationship, be it money or chores, because at the end of the day, income and chores both require labor! Every couple seems to do it so differently, but I'm sure you'll find your happy middle ground. Good luck!
my husband and i both work full-time, though he owns his own general contracting business and i work a corporate job from home. i do most of the housework and i'm totally fine with it for one major reason - it's not expected of me. i tidy up during the day since i'm home all day long and usually have time between client calls, but if i decide i'd like to take a nap over cleaning the kitchen, no big deal. the husband handles anything that needs fixing and the stuff i don't like to do (scrubbing toilets, cleaning out gutters, scooping up dog poop from the yard). furthermore, we have always lived entirely off my salary and use his income for savings, home improvements, or to reinvest in his business. i think the key is finding what works for you and being honest with your partner when you feel you're doing more than your share.
To the author,
What? You didn't post that to generate discussion? :-)
Well, I had the misfortune to be raise in the Enjoli cologne times, where we were entrained to bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan, and never let him forget he's a man.
Ok, so I make the eggplant bacon and fry it in a kosher pan, but, damnit, that stuck.
Although, if your male identified partner has forgotten he is a man, look into some memory care facilities.
Sorry to add on, but it seems this is part of work-life balance that gets overlooked.
Maybe for some, the Zen message in chop wood, carry water plays over to sweep floors, dust shelves, but it doesn't for me without mental work.
I'm proud of the home I keep, from the mid 1980s Step Van I once called home, to the spacious 600 sf duplex I inhabit today, and all the stops in between.
But when I was working two jobs eating up 65 to 80 hours a week (and I loved them both), getting 23 hours of housework was tilting my balance off.
I should have hired out a monthly clean and quarterly deep cleans.
But I chose to be some character called superworkingwoman.
Now, I plan on a 40 hour work week, a compact cleaning routine and a monthly cleaner hired in.
@StrawberryPie: I meant to respond to your first comment earlier. I *totally* agree that this conversation feels like a dirty secret sometimes. I swear, when one of my friends -- who always seemed to have the "perfect" marriage -- told me recently that she and her husband got in such a big fight that she threw something at him, I felt such immense relief. I just thought, "Oh good, I'm not the only one who's far from perfect." I've been thinking pretty much nonstop about what I wrote and how I reacted to some of the comments, and you know what? I am 100% certain that I love my fiance and want to marry him, even more so than a few days ago. He read all the comments too and was 100% supportive of me. The money and house stuff? Meh, we'll figure it out. Some people might consider what I wrote (or how I responded) as a "big red flag." For us, it was actually a white one. I really appreciate everyone who saw the big picture in this, not just an opportunity to weigh in with their opinion about my relationship. That's what I was hoping for all along. :-)
@FFB4MD: I think you've come up with a brilliant and totally fair system. Nice work!
I really enjoyed both articles. My husband used to do all of the cooking, but his job changed, hours increased dramatically and he started making more money. Initally, when I took over the cooking, I just asked him to do other chores, but the timing wasn't right, my notes weren't notice and I became really frustrated. It took a while for me to come up with the same set-up you have. He pays for more. I also force him to buy me more treats. It works beautifully. We've been married for 10 years and have always kept our money separate. I've heard that a marriage isn't "real" until $ is combined, but I've also heard couples say NEVER combine your money - it was a mistake for us. Everyone is different. We're doing it our way and its working.
ATRON - yep, go for 50:50 - you are never going to find your match - what are you going to do when you have to breastfeed - make your hubby grow boobs? or do what a friend of mine did that refused to breasfeed so her hubby and her would have to wake up equally to feed the baby - and denied her children one of the best things a mother has to offer, love, milk and connection?
ANNAMARIA - I wish I had read this when you first posted. I would have told you, that my hubby when we were engaged said a few times things like: some of us have real jobs (he is a VP), once I offered him a $100 when he needed money, and he said: no, I need real money...., and plenty of things like that, and yes he make 3 times what I make, but I have so many talents that he doesnt, including him never sending a shirt to the cleaners since we got together (that saves him $300 a month) . He loves to cook as much as I do, he used to do all his ironing and cleaning, we chip in the house, and I don't mind that now I am the one that cleans the bathroom every week, while he is busy putting out son to sleep. He travels for work, I go to work locally - I make sure he has a meal when he arrives home at 10pm from a 7 hr flight - that's how I see love, he makes sure to ask me when I don't feel well how am i feeling, makes me hot water bottles when I am pms-ing, and held my hand when had breast surgery, and fed me when our son was born and I did not know how to feed myself while breastfeeding our son. LOVE is never equal - it is complimentary - you fullfill each other - not to place each other on the scale... Never doubt your love, and a lot of times love is totally a state of mind - you either want to be with a person, for what you believe in, or you don't to be with that person.
I read both articles, and I think you're right to bring up the issue. I've been with my husband for 21 years now, married for most of them, and while he's smart and reasonably enlightened, sometimes he comes out with this last-century patriarchal b.s. outta nowhere, and we have to talk about these things, because so much of this stuff is unexamined, for men and women.
Once upon a time, I was the sole breadwinner when my husband was unemployed. He wasn't eagerly seeking employment, and he wasn't working around the house, so we had to have a little chat about how that wasn't going to work. He got with the program, and as it turned out, he was an excellent homemaker, so good that I was disappointed when he went back to FT work.
Now the shoe is on the other foot. I've had to leave my job for health reasons, and am the FT homemaker, doing 99% of the chores, making his lunch and all the dinners, plus the home improvement stuff. We had a lot of talks about how to make sure this new setup worked for both of us and that no one felt resentful, especially when one of us was going into the office, and one of us was free to clean house in her pajamas and take naps as needed. It's still a work in progress, and there have been money comments on his part passed off as "jokes" when I call him on it. But on the whole, our money has always been "our" money, whether I was making it or he was making it, and I never made comments like that when I was the one bringing home the bacon, so I think it's almost a weird gender role thing rearing its ugly head.
In any case, although I'm doing pretty much all the housework, because this is now my "job," I find I don't resent it at all. Why? Because I was doing all this stuff--the lion's share of the chores (because I do have higher standards of cleanliness, and we have a rule that if it bugs you, you fix it), and all the home improvement stuff--when we were both working 40 hours a week (at the same company, no less). I don't resent that reality like I once did, because this is my job now, rather than something I alone had to fit in around my job. And I like doing it; it's real work, with a real and tangible benefit in improving my life, in a way that moving megabytes around electronically never was. As long as it is understood that my contribution, while different, is equal and equally important as the money, I'll be fine for the duration. So we'll work on that as we learn this new way of being.
Love both articles - I can see how the first may be taken as a more traditional (old-fashioned?) view on gender roles and that some would find it unrealistic or impractical to put a price tag on housework. (since everyone has to do it at some point!) I agree with some posters that the person who enjoys and has time for a task should be the one to do it... however, each partner would have to agree to - and uphold - this arrangement.
It was raised that taking the time to - "keep score" - indicates that they aren't doing it right. My partner and I certainly 'keep score'. This way works for us. We have to do this. Otherwise, we might get to the end of the month and wonder where the money went! (I'm sure we've all been here!) We live on a very limited income, and have a young child who we alternate staying home with. The jobs get done, there is little nagging, and we aren't relying on finger crossing or credit to get us through the month. In writing down what we spend, we control our 'spontaneous' spending, and really see where the money goes. Its pretty amazing what you CAN live on when you try, and it makes doing all these other homemaking jobs for yourselves even more appreciable. In our case, it would not be possible to hire someone to do these things for us, and when a little time is spent each day by both partners, the housework is managed, if not perfect.
I really enjoyed seeing such an array of opinions on these ideas! They are close to my heart, as we have worked hard to figure out what works for us at home, as well as keep us sane and debt free. (More important to us than the actual figure we bring home!)
Ps..... for further managing money and keeping score - have a look at Til Debt Do Us Part TV show. Not sure if this is aired in the States or not.... but Gail Vaz-Oxlade is RUTHLESS with couples to keep score on housework and expenses!
When I read your first post I got really mad because it really struck a chord with me. It's the little things, like walking *past the dishwasher* and setting the dishes on the counter so I have to load it. When I read your post I felt all the frustration, feelings of being disrespected and taken for granted- and we have a great relationship! Thank you for bring up this subject. Maybe you got such intense reactions because it is an intense topic.
We just had a fight about this last week. Here's what I'm changing:
a) only clean up after myself. If I always clean up after him then his mess is never his problem
b) spend ONLY 4 hours a week on mutually beneficial chores. Then we both have a "40 hour work week".
and if these don't work, I'm going to insist on a cleaning lady. If he doesn't want to spend a few extra hours cleaning the house, than he spend a few extra hours working to make money to pay someone else to do it.
To follow up: This post actually inspired a conversation between me and my fiancée about our finances in regards to house work. It was kinda assumed that he made a lot more than me and worked more than me (because he has a full time office job and steady pay check and I work by the job) but with a really honest look at everything, it turns out he only makes a little more than me and only works a couple more hours a week, which gives my complaints about having to do all the housework legitimacy. We are actually making changes in our relationship to make it more fair.
Thanks again for bringing up a great topic.
My mother in law tells a story of her husbands grandparents (my husbands great grandparents) who lived in the hills of North Carolina. Back before being an independent woman was the norm, Great Grandma had her very own sense of identity it seems. She had inherited some sum of money (my guess is it was fairly modest at best) from family and didn't want to mix it with her soon to be husbands. SO - they kept all of their money separate their entire marriage. One day, they decided to add a pig to the family farm and the negotiations on who would pay for what apparently took some weeks. Finally, it was decided that he would buy the pig, she would feed the pig and then they would split the proceeds upon it's sale. My MIL says that their entire marriage was like this and it worked well enough for them. Just cracks me up.
Personally, I grew up in a traditional house wife on the farm for a mother family... and swore I would not repeat it. My struggle has been coming to terms with being a stay at home mom to our 3 year old and one on the way, while keeping my sanity. Hubs does help, doing some laundry and often the dishes, but the rest is my realm. Honestly, I'm not very good at it, likely because I'm STILL rebelling against the traditional woman's role.