apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

Seems like once or twice a week one of you posts something already posted just as with this news that Janel put up earlier in the day. Not reading your own site?

CAn you explain the difference between Modernica's Case Study storage pieces and ones that are registered as licensed Eames' and why they can coexist?

Can anyone get the sale prices to appear? I checked the prices on July 3rd and they have not changed yet. It is now July 4th and the sale should have started.

Maybe those ARE the sale prices? It doesn't show regular price/sale price info.

I checked the link in this thread, and the link in Janel's earlier thread:
http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/chicago/sales-events-calendar/chi-sales-calendar-070308-055242

The "Build Your Own" section isn't up and running:
http://modernica.net/index.php?target=categories&category_id=36

But it does look like one small piece is less expensive than the "sale" price. Unless that one end costs like 50 extra.

Very confusing.

The sales have started - finally! The prices have been updated this morning to reflect the discount, check the Modernica link above.

As far as the Modernica's Case Study storage units versus the Herman Miller ones, there is a very interesting discussion about it at the Design Addict forum.

I just went over to see, and yes, there they are, the sale prices.

I think I like mainly the dotted wooden doors.

The rest is kind of haphazard, a jumble of assorted materials. Which would be fine if I was putting it together from scrap or seconds from a home improvement store.

Someone ought to make it in parts, ala IKEA storage systems, to buy only the parts you like.
Like IVAR:
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/categories/range/10364/11705/

Or GORM:
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/categories/range/10364/10904/

Oh! I hadn't seen this before:
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00105262

Anyone done anything with that? Headboard? Room divider?

True Blue - you need to go back and learn your orders.

First off, the whole reasoning behind the ESUs was to create a system of shelving that was made from off-the-shelf parts. Its interesting that the Eames storage units relate more to their Case Study house than to the rest of their furniture lines - which invariable involved custom making parts. Your comment about making them from home improvement scaps is spot on.

However, it is inaccurate to assume that the ESUs are haphazard. They are constructed on a repeating ratio that has just beautiful proportions. The customization of the system highlights these proportions with the addition of colored panels, mesh, wire cross-braces etc. These presaged IKEA by fifty years, altho the premise was the same. When first introduced the ESU could be had in a much wider variety of configurations.

However, if you're really interested in design I would recommend shelling out the extra cash and getting an authentic piece. The money from licensed pieces go towards keeping the Eames House maintained, and keep the Eames Office open- preserving the legacy of Charles & Ray. The money from Modernica's knock-offs goes to lining the pockets of Modernica's owners.

And seriously - whats with Modernica knocking off every design classic these days? I used to really like them...now they make me sad.

HNagler - There may not be much material difference in the storage units - they were, after all, designed to be made from commonly accessible parts. But there are some distinct differences between authentic pieces and knock-offs.

With the ESUs the main difference is intent. Herman Miller produces the ESUs with the intent of offering an original, historically significant design in the manner and materials spec'd by the designer, with funds going back to the foundation/licensee of the designs: in this case the Eames Office/Eames Foundation.

Modernica's intent is profit. They did not ever employ the designers, they didnt fund the research & development of the designs, they didnt promote or distribute the designs and they certainly pay no royalties to the Eames family (as evidenced in Eames Demetrios' letter to Dwell this month).

I'm not saying that Herman Miller does this as a public service. They certainly make a profit. But authentic production preserves the designs in the manner in which they were originally made - which is why we like them to begin with.

Modfan, I am aware of the Case Study houses and how things like this storage unit came into being. Note my many posts here:
http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/chicago/books-guides-resources/inspiration-eames-by-gloria-koenig-054738

However...the original premise is long gone. The design is still there, but the mass production and low cost for everyone is not.

IKEA, however, has the mass production for everyone. Along with the low cost.

And if the people who make the storage unit are not willing to follow the original ideas completely, it would be nice if someone else could.

The costs of various materials have probably risen, out of proportion to the income levels of many people. This is NOT the same time as it was in the 40's or 50's or even the 60's.

And yet we know from what we see that it is possible to sell many things at very affordable prices.

Look at the costs of shipping on the Modernica items. Flat pack makes more sense. Buying only what you need makes more sense. Being able to add to it over time, as needed, makes sense.

And having the same quality available in the future makes sense. So that a person can start with a couple of shelves and a few braces now...and add on to it. Over the years. Creating just the right amount of storage that they need.

Because with so many items, they are out for a season and a trend, and then disappear, never to be seen again. So, no, you can't add on to something that doesn't exist anymore.

These have been around long enough, and could continue to be around a long time. But I'm not buying them. They don't make sense from my viewpoint, because of the cost of what you are getting. It's a basic shelving unit. BASIC SHELVING UNIT.

How much do you think could be made if these items were available separately on a huge global scale at prices that are indeed low-cost and affordable? What if they were through IKEA in parts?

By the way, what is the difference between profit and royalties? It's making money, either way.

TrueBlue -

I'm not knocking IKEA at all. In fact, I have three new pieces at home waiting for assembly. But what IKEA has sacrificed that the Eames never did is quality. I've got about a dozen various Eames chairs at home - ranging in production date from 1946 to 2008. The oldest is still as solid and sturdy as the newest. And as comfortable.

Now, when you talk about 'low cost' being lost from the Eames pieces there are some things to consider. First is that only a few of their products were deliberately geared towards low cost - mainly the ESUs, the fiberglass chairs, the plywood chairs, and the sofa compact. Almost all of their subsequent furniture pieces stemmed from specific corporate projects that necessitated higher pricing.

Second is that low-cost is a term that needs historical perspective. If you look at what the furniture cost during production, and look at what that cost would be now, accounting for inflation - there arent huge disparities. An Eames lounge in 1957 cost $500. Thats the equivalent of $3831 in 2007. The Eames lounge currently retails for $3600. Its true that some of the other pieces have spiked a bit but see #3.

Thirdly you have to compare what you pay with what you get. For $150 you can have a top of the line IKEA dining chair. For $250 you can have an Eames plastic side chair. Which one do you think is going to last longer? Which one is made in a 1st world country by folks who have fair labor laws and are given health insurance? Which one is made out of recycled/able materials and produced in an environmentally friendly way? Folks these days are focused far too much on the dollar sign and not on the investment per dollar.

Its true - some of the Eames furniture costs more than IKEA pieces. But the fact is that you are going to get an exponentially greater return on your investment per dollar with the Eames furniture.

As for Royalties vs. Profit, again you are focusing only on the dollar sign. Yes, both indicate that a percentage of money is being gained from the sale - but where that money goes is what's important.

As you're aware the Eames did much more than furniture - they did toys, films, exhibitions, graphic design, architecture and photography. All of this contributes to their legacy and needs to be taken into consideration when talking about the impact their designs/philosophy had on the 20th century. However, it is almost exclusively the furniture that continues to produce revenue. Some of this revenue goes to Herman Miller to compensate for production, marketing, and company profits. But part also goes to the Eames Foundation which operates and cares for the Case Study house, and part goes to the Eames Office, which acts as a resource about the Eames. The Office organizes exhibitions & films, supports an informative website, and collaborates with Herman Miller & Vitra as how best to preserve and promote the furniture side of things. (and for those that think the Eames were stinking rich - think again. According to an acquaintance who worked in the Eames Office, the Office almost always went overbudget on projects for corporate clients. The costs were always absorbed by the Office, as Charles believed in keeping his word to the client.)

Modernica only collects profits. The revenue they take in from their sales doesnt support any part of the Eames legacy - it only goes into someone's pocket. Thats the difference I was indicating between royalties and profits.

I think we're agreeing. Ha! Sort of. The amount of expendable income these days, placed against the costs of the furniture is a different ratio. Besides the fact of the increase in costs of the materials themselves. So that it's a double whammy, and puts many of the items well out of reach.

As far as making something like the bookcase available, the parts could be priced according to their costs. Right? It would beget a new layer of social status..."Oh, YOU have the red fiberglass ends, THOSE are the most expensive" rather than placing the status on the entire unit.

And you KNOW that people concerned with status would buy ONLY the most expensive parts. It's what some people do.

I don't know enough about the structure of Herman Miller, but I glanced this:
"Our manufacturing facilities are located in the U.S., China, Italy, and the United Kingdom."
Source:
http://www.hermanmiller.com/CDA/SSA/Category/0,,a10-c396,00.html

But I do love those two, every time I read something about them, I adore them even more:

"Charles and Ray achieved their monumental success by approaching each project the same way: Does it interest and intrigue us? Can we make it better? Will we have "serious fun" doing it?"

http://www.hermanmiller.com/CDA/SSA/Designer/0,,a7-c1143-b5,00.html

They fed each other, it seems...they brought out things in each other...and that has to involve the rest of the staff and the company too.

Had they not met, perhaps we would not have all these designs. Had the company been another company, we might not have had these designs.

Hey, has there ever been a movie about them? Like a Hollywood movie? It just seems so romantic and funny and interesting, their whole life. Probably couldn't cram everything into a two-hour movie.

But with funny lines like this, it seems it would be a hit:
Their own concepts evolved over time, not overnight. As Charles noted about the development of the Molded Plywood Chairs, "Yes, it was a flash of inspiration," he said, "a kind of 30-year flash."

I read Eames Demetrios' letter in Dwell this month, and I hear what you're saying, Modfan.

But I am a poor person who is interested in good design. I cannot afford to spend what it costs for a licensed Eames piece. However, I will spend what I can afford on something that looks close enough, because I am interested in the DESIGN, in a purely visceral way. I see something I like. I can afford it. I will buy it. I will enjoy it no matter what the origin or quality. What I spent and what it got me is MY BUSINESS. If it falls apart or denies the Eames house one landscaper's hour of pay, that is MY CHOICE.

I really kind of resent you and Demetrios' attitude, frankly. From what I have read about Charles and Ray, one of the ethics they celebrated had to do with affordable, accessible design. Good design for everyone. Right? It makes me kind of mad that you would fault anyone for choosing good design inspired by the Eameses - that they can afford - because it doesn't "support" the proper "legacy." Who cares if Modernica makes a tidy profit, I'd rather see them making a profit than a big box chain store that sells puffy pleather sectionals and recliners.

When the Eames folks make the furniture more financially accessible to more people than just rich people who buy it for status display, I will be happy - VERY HAPPY - to buy LOADS of it. But until then, I will choose good design I can afford. I don't think Charles and Ray would mind.

The letter is posted here:
http://www.designaddict.com/design_addict/forums/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread_show_one/thread_id/6257/

Some of what we've talked about here:
http://bloesem.blogs.com/bloesem/2008/06/modernica.html

"Seems like once or twice a week one of you posts something already posted just as with this news that Janel put up earlier in the day. Not reading your own site?"

Indy Jeffrey: Modernica is a local retailer and popular with LA residents, so even though AT Chicago might have posted this on their site, we think it's a sale that is also regionally specific and to interest to our LA only readers. Sometimes duplication is fine for these reasons since we have to think regionally and nationally.

BX - I resent the fact that you're resentful. So there. ;-D

Design, unlike 'style', is more than just how something LOOKS. Design is about the function, the materiality, the proportioning, and the way ALL of those things relate to one another. Knock-offs, by their very nature, cannot match all of these elements. Knock-offs almost never have access to orignal drawings/designs and almost always use inferior materials and inferior labor practices. Why else could they be sold for half the price?

Yes, Charles & Ray intended SOME of their items to be low cost. But if you read further about them you'll see that there were other things more important than low-cost. One highly significant things is the guest/host relationship. This is a theory of the way that two parties interact - that there are certain expectations placed on the guest and on the host (think Emily Post's ettiquette)

Charles & Ray expanded this idea of a guest/host relationship into everything they did. As the designer (host) they wanted to create a very specific situation/comfort/experience for the end user (guest). In their furniture it comes from the durability, craftsmanship, comfort, and material choices. In their exhibition designs its a broader experience. When people visited the Eames Office they were almost always treated to a picnic, or a slideshow/film presentation. Always present was the guest/host relationship and this will be expounded in any book about the Eames you choose to read. (PS TrueBlue - def. read C&R Eames, Designers of the 20th Century by Kirkham / MIT Press)

In terms of cost - I'm not 'poor' but I'm by no means rich. I make less than 40k a year and live in Boston - one of the most expensive cities in the country. However, it is a no-brainer to me to buy good things. Sometimes that means saving up (I saved for a year to buy an LCW) and sometimes that means there are things I just can't have (like an Eames Lounge). But I am confident that the things I do have - mostly shell chairs, and a couple of plywood pieces - will last me for years and years to come.

And if you do your homework and shop around you will see that prices on Eames plastic chairs, and Eames plywood chairs are not that much more expensive than anonymous crap from CB2, West Elm, and even IKEA.

I’ve seen enough now between the Dwell letter, the designaddict forum and now this…I feel compelled to speak!

Modernica was started in the late 80’s when modern furniture was not very popular internationally, but locally in LA, there was a market (lots of modern houses).They brought back the Eames storage units when no one was making them and by that point, the designs were public domain. Herman Miler had discontinued the storage units back in the 50’s or somewhere around then. By the mid-90’s though, there was a complete resurgence in the popularity of modern furniture internationally and Modernica was inadvertently in a prosperous position.

So in the mid-90's, Herman Miller decided they wanted in on the popularity and not, sorry I have to laugh here, because they were berating themselves for not upholding Charles and Ray Eames legacy. Guess who they approached to make the storage units? Modernica!

Eames Demetrios seems to have his panties in a wad because he believes he is missing out on sales and is using the I’m upholding my family’s legacy argument. I call BS. Its an overbearing sense of entitlement. That would be like a pharmaceutical company like Merck taking out a full page ad in the NY Times and berating people for buying generic versions of medication they R&D'd 50 years ago, trying to make the masses forget that the formulas are public domain.

Hopefully this sheds some insight so all can feel OK for buying a Modernica product without the fear of the Herman Miller police coming to harass you.

"Design, unlike 'style', is more than just how something LOOKS. Design is about the function, the materiality, the proportioning, and the way ALL of those things relate to one another. Knock-offs, by their very nature, cannot match all of these elements".

You lost me at the first sentence. I'm not sorry to say that design IS about LOOKS.....for ME. Design means different things to different people in different circumstances. What it means to you is just fine and dandy, I understand and respect it. I can see it from your perspective and I grok it. But I cannot SHARE that perspective with you. My furniture budget and sense of priorities is different from yours, just as my eye color is. That is the way life stacks up sometimes.

I figure decent design, as a spiritual concept, also serves the purpose of honoring many perspectives - across many lines of social strata and class.

If there is anything that should be flexible and accessible in this hard, cold, absolutist culture we've become, design (or, um, "style" as we unwashed serfs call it) is an area that holds a lot of potential to bring people together, not divide them by financial privilege.

Don't treat me like I'm stupid, Modfan, because I get what you're talking about. It made sense at one time in history, and MAKES sense for only a CERTAIN CLASS of people now. Do you want a gold medal for saving your pennies to buy the real deal? OK, here you go. Feel better now? Are you this judgmental about your friends and families furniture choices, too?

The 4 story unit should cost... I don't know... $400? Look at what it is and the material costs. I could build one from scratch for a bit over $100. I really want one, but I will make my own. I refuse to pay snobby, insane prices like these. You can get parts and make a few parts and with minimal cutting of panels and steel, make your own and make it to fit your taste. I drive a Chief Cherokee that is 6 years old, perfect condition and low mileage... I paid less than the large STORAGE UNIT costs. Insane.