I walked away from a lease on an old warehouse loft space because we were paying by the square foot, and having been promised 1000 sq ft (me and my housemate), we measured and found we only had 775 sq ft. The landlord would not reduce the rent, so we left (having lost our deposit).

That warehouse is now being torn down for condos.

Realtors and apartment leasing managers always exude nervousness when I start pacing the rooms for myself, so I have my suspicions about what I'd learn by comparing my measurements to those stated.

Amazingly, the plan dimensions in our current apartment turned out to be accurate... but I've seen ads where the management promotes are 570-sf model as having 700 sf.

I looked at a condo once that was the entire second floor of a three-story brick bowfront building. The building's footprint was 20x40, and a common hall & front/back stairwell reduced the unit's width by about 7 or 8 feet.... yet the condo listing claimed the condo was 840SF -- quite a miracle that would be! ;-)

I have always been curious, when calculating square footage of a house or apartment, do you count bathrooms, mechanical rooms, closets, etc.? Some people say yes and others say no. This can make a really big difference.

I don't see what's so difficult about accurately quoting total square footage and room sizes in an apartment short of the real estate agent perpetrating a fraud. Length X width = area of a room, sum up the spaces and voile!, you have total square footage.

I've measured my own apartments over the years so that I had a quantity I could reference when shopping for a new space. Are real estate agents that lazy that they can't spend 30 minutes measuring rooms and creating a floorplan? I guess their immersion in real estate hype is so profound that they now have to issue disclaimers on facts and statistics and attempt to blame the buyer if their figures aren't correct.

Isn't the standard that you count "finished" space? So, closets and bathrooms, but not garages or unfinished attic?

I'm more concerned about accurate room dimensions that total sf, though... another 100 sf only matters if it's in a spot where you can use it.

When I rented my first apartment in Chicago, the landlords said it was 450 sq. feet. When they sent me a little floorplan with measurements so I could figure out what furniture would fit, I realized that they were way off in their calculations. They were off by 100 sq. feet!! I brought this little fact to their attention - they quickly reminded me that I had already signed a lease and that they must have included the *parking space* in the square footage. I pitched a fit and got them to slice the first two months rent for what I thought was plain old deception and what they claimed was a mistake.

Our apartment was listed as 2223 square feet. We measured every inch before we made an offer and we came up with 1770 square feet. The difference between our measurements and their lie was 447 square feet. We made a very fair offer based on the ACTUAL square footage and the per square foot sales in our neighborhood. The offer was rejected. I'll spare you the rest of the story. I'll just say this; even though we live here now very happily, we paid too much.

The reason square footage matters so much in NY is that you are paying a premium FOR SPACE. Nice layouts and fancy finishes are great, but the cost of renovation and building supplies is much less than the cost of space.

Yes, I know you're paying a premium for space -- but I'm not going to pay that premium if the space isn't in a spot where it's useful to me. Bad apartment design is the one situation where 1250 < 700.

So total sf MATTERS -- it's just that I'm more concerned if there have been fudges about room dimensions, because that's where the lies will actually bite me when I go to move in. And you gotta figure -- if the room dimensions are smaller than advertised, the total sf is probably also smaller.

What I don't understand is why the industry doesn't come up with a standard way to measure the size of an apartment. Duh! I'm not in any way angry about this issue--even though the measurements I came up with for my condo were nowhere near the square footage that the space was thought to be by the previous owner, but never guaranteed because there is no standard for measuring. In all my real estate shopping and open house lurking in DC, when I ask about square footage, I've always been forewarned that there's no standard way to measure. Because my condo is a good size for me, the square footage is not really relevant (although I'm still looking for the secret extra closet).

I do wonder whether the industry intentionally doesn't standardize this so as to benefit somehow.

Our first apartment was listed as 600 sq. ft. We found out after we moved out that it was actually a little under 500. We didn't have any choice about it at the time, so it doesn't really matter, but I was pretty steamed when I found out. Like you said, when a space is that small every bit counts.

This is more than a New York problem. I looked at many condos that were nowhere near the square feet promised in the ad and when I brought it up the real estate sales people pointed out that a small line at the bottom of the MLS sheet says accuracy of description is NOT GUARNTEED. I measured the condos I was more serious about with a tape measure myself. Many condo buildings charge assessments based on sq. ft. so its important to find out what the condo association list your square feet at when calculating your bill. They are usually more accurate than the realtors.
don

Realtors? Misrepresenting?!? Surely not.

I'm sure they're not *all* rat finks, but every realtor I've met/been obliged to work with in Boston has certainly deserved no money and no time of mine.

The "standard" method of measuring living space is to measure the indoor usable space, i.e.: rooms, closets, kitchen, baths, hallway, etc. Including the thickness of the exterior or interior walls, columns, balconies, utility conduits, parking spaces, optional off-site storage closets, portions of common areas, etc. constitutes nothing less than fraud by the real estate agent, landlord, or developer.

Why is this tolerated? because whether in New York or Peoria every seller wants their property to appear better than the competition and fudging or fraudulently inflating the square footage entices people to visit property they would have otherwise ignored, under the deception they're getting a bargain when actually they are not.

when searching for my place, i found that realtors rarely knew how to calculate or represent square footage! that said, i lucked out in my brooklyn pad that was listed at 465 sq ft but is actually a little over 500 sq ft once you add closets, entryway, etc. it's also a great layout & flow. well, i looked at a lot of dumps before this bit o' luck showed up & i'm thankful for it every time i walk in the door :)

My co-op was listed at 700 sq ft; the assessment showed 615 *usable* square feet. Still, since that's more than twice what I had in my old place, I'm not complaining too much--and hey, now I can train for the small cool contest.

This doesn't cover apartments, but ANSI has a standard for single-family homes. It's ANSI-Z765 Standard. You can read it at the link below, if interested.

http://www.kirchmeyer.com/CurrentNews/ANSI_SQFT_DOC.pdf

Realtor said my place was around 600 sf but turned out to be 530. Nevertheless, going into it I knew that most all real estate agents approximate on the high side so I took this into consideration when viewing. I'm not complaining because I knew what I was getting into. The space was the right size for me and at a comparable price to apartments of the same size, so the number didn't really matter all that much. If I was paying for a commercial space, where you pay by the sq ft, I would be pissed.

I've found that NY brokers won't even quote the square footage. They just flat out ignore the question.

I would not trust condo plans that have been prepared by architects when converting, either. These have been presented to me as fact.

However, the apartment we were looking at was a rectangle and multiplying the two dimensions together gave 500 sqft and the plan said 650.

When the apartment is a rectangle, that's no miscalculation, that is a straight out lie.

Robyn and Wende:

Regarding:

"I have always been curious, when calculating square footage of a house or apartment, do you count bathrooms, mechanical rooms, closets, etc.?"

"Isn't the standard that you count "finished" space? So, closets and bathrooms, but not garages or unfinished attic?"

Not sure if realtors in New York calculate square footage the same as those in other states, but here are the guidelines for how we calculated it in Massachusetts:

- Bathrooms are not counted in the total square footage.

- Closets are usually not counted although they might if they are somehow elevated to room-size "dressing room" status.

- Hallways are generally counted.

- Utility rooms are not counted unless they are actual finished, heated rooms with a larger purpose like a finished laundry room and on a main floor. A partitioned in an unfinished basement that holds a washer, dryer or water heater would not be counted.

- Basements and attics are only counted if they are finished living spaces, which means they have heat, floors, walls, legal egress, and are deemed legal for occupancy.

- Garages are not counted. Although, finished, legal living space above a garage will count.

In the case of houses, the exterior perimeter is measured and multiplied by the number of floors of living area. Then subtractions are made for baths and other noncountable footage.

Apartments and condos are a bit trickier, but the most accurate way to measure those is to actually measure each countable area and add up the footage. However, developers of new condos was indeed often calculated by measuring raw square footage - the total would often therefore overestimate actual usable square footage.

Several typos in my previous post - sorry.

Interesting, Downeast Suzy!

That'd reduce our current apartment to under 500 sf, so where the management gets 700 is truly a mystery. Not that I'd put it past them to include residents' share of the hallways, parking garage, and swimming pool...

I have also seen square footage counts include the space for interior loft bed platforms, without subtracting the space the platform covers on the floor below - kind of a manipulation on cubic space.

There are industry standards for measuring square footage - as an architect, I spend plenty of time doing just that. I have commented on this in the past - this is not a new conversation to AT and I am a bit disappointed that the staff can't bother to keep up or at least link to the last conversation as a number of architects commented.

What you should know is that USABLE square footage is different than NET square footage - and your lease/sale is based on NET. Net definitions vary slightly from city to city - but it generally includes all conditioned space - livingroom, bedroom, bath, closets, cabinets, den (lucky you) - but not typically balconies or garages. Net includes included half of any wall you share with a neighbor plus half of any wall you share with the corridor (in some cases it is estimated as all the wall to the corridor). If your exterior wall is more than 50% glass the estimate is to face of glass not to the face of the sill. It also includes the extra thinkness of plumbing/wet walls, plumbing vent stacks, HVAC stacks and ducting if vertical, columns within your apartment - the list goes on and it adds up.

This doesn't mean you were misled/misinformed by the leasing agent or realtor and that your space is significantly smaller than advertised. But you need to calculating them correctly.

oops - sorry for the typos

Alex in DC - that's very useful. But why don't sellers tell you the number and just state which one it is?

Pixie,
In real estate, and by that I mean in this post sales versus renting, there are laws that cover what is included and not included in a legal description of a property. These laws are local - typically by city or county - and are not nationally standardized as they are in office rental.

My outline above is general or generic and based on designing apartment buildings in several locations around the country. With a condo or coop - the square footage numbers are achieved by the architect or builder and then provided to the developer for creating a legal definition which is submitted to the city. Once this definition is in place, it can be tricky to change. In the eyes of the city -- your square footage is fixed like a plot of land and as such is taxable. Changes to sf need to be done legally - you may not believe the numbers but the city certainly does.

In regards to what the actual definition is where you live, it is worth being informed prior to buying as to what your city defines as square footage. Your real estate agent should explain how the numbers are achieved in your area - you only need to ask. If your agent can't answer that question - honestly, I'd look for another agent. If you can't fine another agent or if he is your mother's best friends son and you can't fire him - call the city planning department and, after waiting on hold and dialing more numbers than you ever thought possible, you will get the information from them. If the city has a good web site, they may actually have this information there. As a buyer, in the end it is your responsibility to ask what the heck you are buying and what the numbers mean.

If your agent doesn't believe the numbers are correct or if there is anything wrong with the listing - be it a typo or an attempt to deceive - he/she will typically call the other agent on it. I bought in a sellers market, but my agent was perfectly happy to question numbers or anything else about the property description she thought was out of line. She considered it part of her job. Now that the market in most of the country is relaxed a bit agents should be aggresively following up on listing errors.

I think people just do not like being lied to when making a major financial obligation. You are always left wondering, "What else did they lie about?" You feel stupid for having been deceived. You feel like a chump.

Most of us don't like dealing with liers. I would have much more confidence in someone giving me an honest "ish" based on different forms of measure than someone out to cheat me.

Why are lapses of character considered acceptable in business? Why do we tolerate them?

My apartment was advertised as 450 sq ft, but when I measured it, it came up to 380 sq ft. I could sure use that missing 70 sq ft - in the form of a closet (which I don't currently have, because I sleep in mine).

Surprisingly, 380 can feel spacious at times.

Alex is correct, and anyone buying a condo can look in the offering document where an architect's certification will appear, including a description of how the numbers were arrived at. Of course, that does not mean that brokers will inflate even those nubers.

If you have a relaively large apartment, particularly one with thick walls, the net vs. usable differences cause substantial deviations in square footage. Consider, for example, the square footage is typically measured to the insde of the exterior wall, which is covered by six inches of drywall and studs. A rectangular "1,000 sq foot" apartment with no interior walls alone has 110 sq ft of space solely absorbed by the perimeter exterior walls. So, right away the claimed square footage in the condo plan is high by 10%. Add in the area taken up by interior walls, plumbing stacks, empy walls etc., and it is 15-20%.

You just need to know how these measurements are made, and make sure you are comparing apples to apples. The NYC facination with $$$ per square foot means nothing unless you know what is being measured.

Holly - in an apartment of your size, 70 sf is roughly correct for the square footage of the shared walls. I do know how much you would love to have the square footage. My 550 sf apartment in SW is much smaller is usable area - and I dream (literally) of extra rooms and closets. what i could do with 70 square feet!!!!

Cate - what you need to understand is that legally it isn't a lie to say Holly's apartment is 70 sf larger than the floor area she lives within. Despite the opinion of postings here today, it is perfectly honest for the seller to quote the legal description - in fact they are required to do so. Think about it - a 4000 square foot home includes all the walls, structural columns, vent stacks, ect because it can't be a house without them. In an apartment, you only have half of the shared interior walls to 'pay' for and none of the exterior - you need these things to make the apartment within the box of the building. I know it doesn't feel like a deal but in contrast to a house, an apartment dweller gets a much better deal in percentage of useable space!!

If you find the square footage quoted is incorrect based on approved measuring techniques in your juridiction - in other words, if it really is a lie - then you have a legal case and may wish to pursue it. At the very least, you would want the property square footage adjusted for tax purposes if you actually have less than you paid for (be careful with this one - shared walls add up). A lawyer would be able to tell you whether you have a case worth pursuing with the seller.

Regarding rentals, I know the situation with tenant rights is much more murky city to city - and this will affect the honesty of the landlord. In my experience with units in the metro DC area, the calculations for rental unit square footage have been very accurate based on the assumptions described in my first posting here. I have no doubt there are dishonest landlords and have idea what the situation is like in New York or other cities in terms of reparations.

When I was looking to buy, I went to view an apartment that was listed as 800 sq ft (with a 400 sq ft outdoor space). When I got there, the apartment was actually 500 sq ft MAX! When I called out the realtor on her suspect measurements she told me that they "had trouble with their laser measure" so the measurements could be a bit "off". haha. Over 300 sq ft off! I told her she should be sued and left.

brokers are cockroaches