apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

Maxwell, glad you brought this up. When the chunky wife announced last year that she was in fact pregnant and not chunky, that is when we left our beloved 1 BR on the upper west for park slope where we currently fester. however: I have friends with knocked up wives who live in studios and they are freaking out right now.

Here's what I think and I am knowledgeable about this:
1. The market swill likely continue to fall
2. A baby can 100% be kept in a studio or 1 BR for the first year. They barely move around much and that makes a huge difference. so you won't "feel it" until the kid is about 10 months old or so
3. However, the one item you did not mention was escalating interest rates. Rates have climbed more than real estate prices have fallen, and rates will continue to climb for the next 6 months or so. What people often don't realize is that if real estate prices fall, say, 10%...a property can STILL be far more expensive in a rising interest rate environment. Do the math on the "purchase calculator" function for any given proprerty on the Corcoran website and you'll see what I mean when it spits out the average monthly cost. The bet here is not that prices will just fall a bit more - the bet must be that they will fall so much that it outweighs the impact of the higher cost of debt.

All good reasons.

No one can predict how low prices will go but it is evident that the market has softened somewhat. I believe the timing will work out for you in that prices will fall for somewhere between 2-3 years before they hit bottom and then slowly recover for 2-3 years before they take off again. That has happened in all prior cycles and RE prices are cyclical.

I'm not so sure that they will collapse as some ppl think but as you said your finances will have grown by then.

Looking forward to your blogging everything about it and let me know if you need RE help - I know the nyc market very well.

Watch it, Maxwell! It's been decreed on the other thread that posts about babies and nurseries are inappropriate to a design site.

Silly me, I thought people designed for their lifestyles! ;)

I also am not sure prices will fall in the NYC area, due to lack of inventory, but I think at least the rise will be checked.

*jamie pup - can you give RE advice to other people besides Maxwell; i.e. - me?

Maxwell and Mom, Congratulations!! I wish all three the best in your home, be it in the West Village or else where; a studio or a 1 or 2 BR!

But I do hope this thread doesn't turn into a real estate blog of haters and speculators of the
"bubble."

Am I the only one offended by the "chunky" and "knocked-up" references?

Don't worry, I found it offending too.

Sharon,
We've all been conditioned to consider the source...

The husband and I have often joked that if we inadvertantly reproduced, the kid would spend his or her first five years in the large bedroom closet -- it has a window and is larger than some bedrooms we've seen in 2BR units.

Of course, the purpose of the joke is to envision how a San Francisco kindergarten teacher would react to the little one announcing that he's come out of the closet.

Anyway, if you want the studio situation to work and you have a cooperative baby, it'll work. More power to you for thinking through what YOU want instead of rushing into a larger place because you're supposed to want it.

wende - love the closet ref!

Not so much "chunky" but definitely "knocked up."

At least he didn't call anyone "preggers."

Is anyone living in a 1 BR with a baby, but without a dishwasher or washer & dryer. Debating on whether or not it's going to work for me. And, we're thinking of moving our bed to the LR and giving the bedroom to the baby. Anyone have thoughts on that?

I'm looking forward to updates on the baby-redesign.

Just from the design standpoint, I can see the challenges. Usually you design to fix problems/issues that already exist and you have to deal with on a daily-basis.

It'll be interesting to see what baby-challenges you anticipate without having the benefit of a baby-testdrive!

No Sharon, you're not the only one. But I just considered the source and shrugged.

“Fester” is an appropriate word for those using such phrases as "chunky wife" and "knocked up".

oh for christ's sakes. do you people truly spend half your waking hours being OFFENDED? don't you realize how godamned silly that is, given the actual suffering that takes place in this world? buck up. we are not in college anymore

I can't believe that first post by Jonathan. Clearly he must be an excellent father and love his wife and child to speak of them so warmly...HA! Blech, what an offenssive way to speak of family. Oh, yeah, it's all about morgage rates apparently.

How very timely! I am currently waiting to see if we need to begin the nine month cure. We have a small and roomy one-bed plus basement rec room/storage/office (very full currently), and if baby makes three I am sure I will benefit from Maxwell's advice (as always).

While not a studio, we definitely need a cure.

Still waiting for my copy of the book (three weeks!)...

Yeah... bad choice of words. The author sounds like his lexicon has been heavily influenced by the movie "Swingers." Ah, self-concious ironic hipsterdom... let it,um, fester...

...and juanito worried this thread will turn into RE haters/speculators chat...

Emily: we did that for our first year however a newborn does not need its own bedroom. easier for you to have the baby next to your bed in a cradle or bassinet for the first few months. saves you from having to get up and deal. this way you can roll over and deal.

alexuma: offensive has one "s". since we are all putting our Victimization Hats then I, too, am DEEPLY offended that you can't godamned spell.

Ya know Tat? I was just thinking the same thing.

And the answer to your question is yes.

jammypup
gmail

Jonathan--

There are two "Ds" in "goddamned."

And a "U" in "putz."

to maxwell et ux: best of luck with a smooth pregnancy and keep your eyes peeled and when you see something you love -- jump on it! I did 5 years ago and couldn't be happier.

He did. I'm pretty sure that's why they're expecting. ;)

ha ha ha!!!!! p2 is the best!

I admit that at first, Jonathon's posts made me cringe... but I'm beginning to understand the irreverance as humor. They're just words, after all.

Is my sense of humor evolving or deteriorating in that now I laugh??

*Coming out of lurking for this, amazingly*

maybe he is just trying to see who he can get a "rise" out of! (o.k. p2 -- this is open for your comment)

Please, kt, don't ruin a good "rise" joke by involving ANY associations to Jonathan!!!

thank you, *jp, will sent you a gmail tonight - have to run right now.
Ciao!

I love Jonathan, he cracks me up.

It could be worse... he could have said "sperminated"

Wrong, Jonathan would never have said "sperminated. Too many syllables. As for his comment that "we're not in college anymore." He went to college? What a country. (This is the moment, of course, when he tells us he holds a Ph.D in economics from the University of Chicago.)Look at it this way: he simply makes 99% of the entire male population look better by comparison.

I chimed in on this issue on the other thread. Can it be done? Yes of course it can. Should it if you can avoid it? I don't really think so. Maxwell I read all your reasons for not wanting to move and what strikes me is that I don't think that you understand what it will be like for you both and the baby in that apartment. Don't forget that you are having the baby as we work our way into fall, and have the whole winter to cope with an infant during inclement weather. Personally, I'd go crazy. Your sanity is the most important issue here.

Also, I'd like to address the money issue. From what you say it seems like you are renting your current place, yet you are going to renovate your kitchen at your own expense? Why would you do that when you think you might move soon? Why not take that money (which would probably be at least 10k) and put it towards a downpayment? I live in Brooklyn Heights and a 2 bedroom in my building is on the market for $525k, and I just saw another two bedroom for $575k. Both are small, but spacious enough to accomodate a family of three. Brooklyn Heights is the first stop in Manhattan on the 4/5, providing easy access to the East Side where your family are. It can be done - and if anyone can do it, you can.

The bottom line is that when you have a kid, it's not about you anymore, it's about the kid and what is best for them. I'm anxious to see more updates though on how you move forward

As regards holding on to your current space even when you buy something in the future - ummm, is your rent so comfortable because it is stabilized? If so, you probably don't want to advertise the fact that you plan to hold on to the lease of what would no longer be your primary residence. The landlord might feel compelled to begin eviction proceedings, under those circumstances.

Anyway, it's all about Jackson Heights, baby - it's not chic, it's not Manhattan, but it's almost insanely cheap to buy compared to other parts of the city, there are ethnic restaurants for miles, and the subway service sure beats the A train uptown (esp. on weekends).

Alexum wrote:
> Oh, yeah, it's all about morgage rates apparently.

-----

> When I was young
> I thought money was the most important thing in life:
> now that I am old I know that it is.
-Oscar Wilde

Very Vermonty-
Hey, I want to hear more about Jackson Heights. Where is it in Queens exactly? Is it safe? What's the deal?

Can someone explain how it is that renters are allowed to renovate? And why would they? Do they get a rebate from the owner?

Or does Maxwell use the term as 'rent' that is, the mortgage payments are now cheaper than renting in the same area, which is what happened to me about three years into my mortgage.

mathilda, you can reach, asia, africa and the middle east populations all in one place -jackson heights
Every lane is held by a ethnic community, food and music

on one of my weekly trips i reached fort tryon - i never saw a greener resident town in the heart of manhattan.

any suggestions on its safety ? how much should one break the bank to get the view of the river and the green for a 2 bed 2 bath - 1200 sq. feet.

there must be a lot of new people on AT these days, what with all the offendinged offensitivity of the offenssed. chill out, it's just jonathan (you shoulda been here for the REALLY bad stuff). i for one take more offense to the term 'the wife' than to 'knocked up' or 'chunky,' but it's obvious he is kidding on all counts, esp. if you've seen his super skinny hot wife in his reno pictures.

maxwell and sara kate, congrats on the baby and kudos to sticking to your principles. the baby won't suffer from lack of space for a little while. (s)he'll definitely let you know when it's time to move. or playdates at jonathan's, i suppose.

My husband and I were in a similar situation two years ago. We were living in a one bedroom in Brooklyn that we owned with no mortgage. We were about to go into contract on a two bedroom when the sellers backed out. So, we stayed. And we're still in that one bedroom with a 19 month old son. Everyone asks us when we're going to move. We don't know. The baby is happy in the bedroom. We're happy on a comfy futon in the living room that we unfold every night and fold up every morning. We like our apartment. We like our neighborhood. It's cheap. It works for us. We don't know how long it will work, but for now it does.

So, Maxwell and Sara Kate, best wishes! If anyone knows how to feel at home in the space you have, I would think it's the two of you. And soon it will be three! If it’s what you want to do, it will be more than fine for you and for the baby. And being close to your parents will be a wonderful thing.

OK, without trying to turn this into a bubble thread -

I have renovated my apartment a fair bit, with some supplies paid for. But I would have done it even if I had been paying for all the supplies. Why? Because the cost of buying versus renting in my city has reached such crazy ratios that the cost of my rent is less than the cost of interest, taxes, and maintenance if I were to buy a similarly sized apartment in the same neighbourhood. Note that this does *not* include any principal repayment. I wasn't in a position to buy a few years ago, and it turns out I'm still not, despite being a fair bit better off financially.

People spend money on all kinds of experiences to make their lives fuller - travel, restaurant meals, theatre tickets. What you have are the memories. Any money I spend on renos is similar - I get the pleasure of living in my space for several years.

Nor is winter a problem in a small apt. with a babeinarms: get yourself a roomy coat and zip it up over your baby carrier (maternity coats work very well if they're gender-appropriate.) Or get a heavy-duty stroller, the kind that often doubles as a bike trailer. We have a Chariot - kind of pricey and a little big to store (we hung it from a hook in the ceiling in our last apartment), but babies stay very warm in those, and the tires go easily over snowdrifts and uneven sidewalks. (You can also get x-country ski attachments.)

And it's not like there's any shortage of interesting things to indoors in NYC that are baby-friendly. In fact, the subway will suffice to keep the kid's interest.

Anyway, having done something similar, I just want to cheer you on. And since I'm still doing something similar (we've worked our way up to 200 square feet per resident), I'm eager to see what you do.

Original blues, I congratulate you on being able to make it work, but I couldn't do it myself. If you get the big stroller, how do you get it down the subway stairs on your own? What if it is raining and you can't hold an umbrella and wheel the stroller on your own? Or snowing? What about when your baby is a little older and can't nap in the stroller? Been there, tried all that, moved to a two bedroom.

Yes, Jackson Heights is safe and cheap. You can buy a 2-bedroom for about $300k. A lot of young families are moving in.

Yeah I remember looking in Jackson Heights a few years ago when I wanted to rent a place by myself. I saw no listings. I was talking to someone about it and they were like, "That's because it's so nice that no one leaves."

Well, as I mentioned we are in a bigger place now, and expecting another baby in September. But to answer your questions, Matilda, in case anyone else is wondering about feasibility -

for children one year or under:

The Chariot bounces down stairs like a mountain bike, which is fine once the baby has stable enough neck muscles - after 5 or 6 months old, or later, for some babies. Prior to that, baby carrier under coat. I used the BabyTrekker myself, which is like a soft backpack that you can wear front or back. This also solves the umbrella problem. With a stroller, you'll need a raincoat with a hood.

Snow is easier than rain - you just need to make sure you're both warm enough. I exchanged the BabyTrekker for a backpack for a month-long trip through Russia and the Baltics when my son was six months old. Worked great - he napped in it easily (and he's never been all that fond of sleep), and it does wonders for helping to lose weight postpartum. This was in very late fall - we did get some snow. My son wore a snowsuit. Obviously, in very severe weather, you can't do this.

The stroller is one of the few places where my now 2 year old will still nap, so I can't answer that question.

All of this, like everything else involved in raising children, depends on the kid and depends on the parents. No, it won't work for everybody. But it definitely can work for some. Which I think is true about nearly every parenting rule, guideline, bit of advice, and accepted norm. What works for some will not work for others.

And I'm certainly not prescribing this as an ideal - where acquiring larger space makes financial and emotional sense, I'm all for it. But you can find yourself in peculiar circumstances, where, among other things, thinking about the family's financial future means some short- or medium-term sacrifice.

And being close to inlaws means that you get more time to yourself ;) So staying close may be well worth the inconvenience.

A word to the wise, though - free babysitting is never *really* free...

btw, that's one year or under because we did move to a larger space - presumably there are people who have managed to make it work for longer.

One helpful side-effect of all this close living is that my son is very tidy. Things out of place bother him. Of course, he may have turned out like that anyway, but I think that the cramped shared quarters can't have hurt!

And if you can afford to do all your renos before the baby arrives, so much the better. Babies and toddlers play hell with schedules.

Move to Montclair, NJ. Two bedroom apartment by the train is $1100 a month for rent, and we're 30 min out of new york.

Congrats Maxwell and Sara Kate.

Go Wildcats! :)

Holly

Oh, and Maxwell... Did you read this today in Curbed? These places look very nice.

http://www.curbed.com/archives/2006/06/07/development_du_jour_one_brooklyn_bridge_park.php

Holly

I guess I just don't understand the original question: why stay in a tiny apartment when you're having a baby? I think people take it for granted that folks are doing this all the time.

I live in a 24-unit building that is mainly one bedrooms and studios. There are four single moms living here: three live in one bedrooms (one apartment is almost as small as Max and SK's), and one in a studio (definitely as small as Max and SK's). All of these four families are low income ones.

The little guy downstairs was born four years ago, after his mama moved in. Recently, she started working on a Social Work degree. Obviously, it's not an ideal situation, and she would like more space. But it's also a reasonable rent, in a community that feels safe and neighbourly to her. It is home to them, period. Meanwhile, the child is one of the happiest, healthiest, and most well-behaved little tykes I've ever known.

Anyway, I'm very excited about watching this experiment Max has decided to undertake! I love the things I learn at AT, and may even get enough ideas from the 9 Month Cure to offer my drill and my skills to some of the moms in my own building!

I just don't see investing money in a place you don't own for the length of time you'll be there. Although, there was a great point about vacations. That's tossed money, you get memories (and postcards and different scenery or whatever). At least with redoing something in your own place now, you get to enjoy it more than a few days or a week.

And I just don't understand the prices. I know, we talked about this before, but looking at the house that Glenn has when he asked about knocking down walls...that's very nice. Well, I think it is. You get two full bedrooms, a little room, a living room, a dining room, a kitchen (with a built-in, eat-in table in the kitchen), a basement, a little tiny front yard to putter in, and a good sized backyard. And whatever will be erected or collapse where the current "garage/shed" is. Which could be the totally cool workshop or kid's playhouse. There's a deck.

There's tons of space for a child to grow up, or even additional GRrrrssss. They can play inside in the basement all winter long. Run through the sprinkler in the backyard. They could have a sand box to play in. I don't think there's room for a cat box to play in with your current space limitations.

I don't know where your closest place to play is, for kids. Like a park. You will have to go with the child to the park until the child is, what, 18? Kids can't be wandering around city streets with lots of traffic. Where are they supposed to play? Where DO kids play in side by side buildings with nothing but sidewalks, streets, and no yards? I don't know.

Here I go, worrying about kids again.

OHHHH, I saw the cutest baby today. Dad made little puffs of air into her face and she'd laugh and LAUGH. Babies have the best laugh ever. Then the baby fixated on me, from about five feet. So much for not seeing faces at a distance.

I start making conversation, telling her how cute she is, and that she has the best smile. Of course, I say that to all the babies, but I didn't tell her that. And dad couldn't get her attention back. I'm really sure now that I glow or have an actual visible aura to children.

Oh, wow, our apartment complex manager was due today. I wonder if she had the baby. Well, good things about babies, it gives us non-babied people something to do in grocery store checkouts.

You'll never get it Andrée.

I don't mean that in an offensive manner. I just don't think you can think differently from the way that you do (and I am not saying that is a bad thing) for anyone to be able to explain all the stuff that puzzles you about this site, raising children in the city and so on.

don't go away though.

The irony is that everything that new tenant used to post about when ppl were complaining about Jonathan (she was saying that he was misunderstood, that ppl should be able to accomodate others that think differently than themselves, that ppl should be more open minded etc) really fits much better with Andree. Sorry to talk about you as a subject again but I just wanted to get that off my chest. I guess in the same manner that Mia wanted to get off her chest how bitchy she can be.

There are plenty of things to do in NYC with children. It is a rich, varied playground of experiences that you could never get in the suburbs and there are plenty of parks and playgrounds that do get crowded but not overwhelmingy so.

Kudos to both Blues and Matilda for what they have both done and do and, yep, rain coat with a hood is essential.

Hi,

Mostly a lurker, but wanted to say congratulations. :)

The idea of "space" and "stuff" for children is vastly over-rated in USmerica. People in other places don't wring their hands over not having a yard or a minivan.

And at any rate, from what I hear from my friends in the suburbs, everyone takes their kids to soccer practice or Chucky Cheese. A lot of kids don't even play in those yards.

Jamie Pup is, i hope, spot on. My parents fled New York for Westport, Connecticut (where I grew up) because New York in the '70's was a wretched cesspool of filth and violence. People who could afford to leave, left. Now people who can afford to stay, stay.

So yes the city offers rich diversity, sophistication, cultural destinations, etc.. I struggle with the fact that it just simply doesn't feel as safe as a beautiful suburban town in Connecticut with a bunch of rich white kids in it, so if anything happens to the kid i may never forgive myself. but who knows. i suppose he could get into just as much trouble out there as he could in park slope.

There are certainly many great playgrounds in New York City. But a kid doesn't really use a playground until they can walk a bit (or at least sit up in the swing). I have no doubt once the petite GR is walking Maxwell and Sara Kate will be well on the road to finding a new place. I could possibly be an unusual parent, but I found the first 5 months really difficult and needed to be able to put the baby in his crib to bed or nap, close the door, and get some personal space. As I said it's all about the parent's sanity.

Another Matilda? This is something that's never happened to me before...

I'm very excited for Maxwell and SKGR's 9-mo cure, since I'm expecting my first wee one in January. I have nothing but admiration for them in their efforts to have a baby in a tiny space and I'm hoping to glean some tips from the reno (even though I have a bigger place in Jersey).

Go Max and Sarah-Kate!

Oh, you should read Debbie Millman's post about her neighbour on how she "makes life beautiful" in a one-room apartment on 29th St. while living with 3 kids: http://debbiemillman.blogspot.com/2006/05/making-life-beautiful.html

Congrats to Maxwell and Sara Kate! And kudos to you for choosing to stay in your beloved apt. Like everyone else has said, lots of people don't have the options of that choice and raise healthy, happy kids.

And from what I remember about the GR apartment, don't you have a beautiful backyard? That makes a HUGE difference with kids, even in the cold.

One of the other reasons to stay in the city and avoid moving to the 'burbs is that here you have an amazing array of options for teaching your kids... and I don't just mean the obvious muesums and such. But I know lots of Park Slope parents who have children taking movement/music/art/swimming classes. While I'm sure you can find interesting classes for kids in the suburbs, knowing that your kids take classes with neighbors, play at the park with the same neighbors, go to school with the same neighbors creates a community that I don't think is as easy to find other places. And I grew up in a small town.

If I may be catty for a second, isn't Park Slope full of rich white kids?!? And it sure is bold of you to admit that white=saftey in your head.

I'm due after you guys so I'm just gonna let you plan and buy and decorate and then copy all of it! Actually, I'm not gonna do that but I am sorely tempted.

Cara I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that, by and large, westport connecticut is probably safer than brooklyn. if that profoundly obvious fact is laden with racism to you, so be it. welcome to reality.

So matilda, you are the one that posted in the first thread about Maxwell and Sarah having a baby and redoing their apt right?
I don't disagree with you on when a child is ready for a playground, I was addressing Andrée's concern about the dearth of things to do for kids in the city.

Cara, your comment about how your kids in the city get to know their neighbours etc. is something I can concur with. One of these articles talks about the difficulty of getting that in the burbs and another has a more positive light:
http://tinyurl.com/qw5zd
http://tinyurl.com/maweg

In addition to that sense of community that happens differently in the city than other places (but certainly other places as well) there is a sense of fantasy that is also different.

Years ago I was hanging out with I little kid and reading him Lyle, Lyle Crocodile. Lyle's address is given in this book-- 194 86th Street or something like that. And little Stevie corrected me over and over again until I realized that his parents read the book differently to him. He was born on that street and they changed the house number so that it was right next door to his house. Suddenly I was struck by the possiblity of growing up surrounded by landmarks in your children's books... and believing that your favorite characters might really live there.

While this wasn't asked, I'll make a bid for my new neighbood: Brooklyn Heights! It's about the least "in" area in Brooklyn, but it has a charm and is so convenient to downtown. Every other area has increased in price so much lately that it seems BH is one of the few place that still has some bargains. And the public school is getting great reviews.

Here's a small 2 bedroom for example:
http://corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=850256

Cheers and congrats!

Wise choice on the apartment, imho. We lived in teeny, tiny flats when our kidlets were babies and I still live in very small townhouse.

Babes and toddlers don't need much in the way of "stuff," despite what the "baby industry" would like you to think. Provide loving parents, diapers, clothes and a baby carrier for the newborns-- add a few books and a toy or two as they grow-- and you're set. If you are happy and relaxed in your current space, it should make a lovely nest.

Irt the stroller discussion: we lived in the city without a car when kidlets were small and rarely used a stroller before they were two. Strollers frustrate the hell out of me when I'm on the go and the kidlets were happier in slings and backpacks, anyway. If you must, check out http://www.quinny.com/zapp/# for the lightest stroller on earth.

Irt rain gear: A hooded poncho is awesome for babies! Works well in arms, sling, backpack, stroller and carseats. Can be removed easily from a sweaty, sleeping baby. There used to be a company that made an awesome poncho specifically designed to cover a stroller or backpack well, but we found a regular toddler poncho in a bigger size worked well.

An echo of everyone's congratulations and the sentiment of original blues. The day-to-day living of the situation, for you, Sara Kate and your young one, will tell the tale in terms of long term sustainability.

When my daughter was 2 months old we cut our square footage in half and moved from a two floor house to a 730SF 1948 apartment. We were motivated by the feeling that the apparent default of new parents doubling, or in some cases tripling, their family footprint when a new baby arrives was something we wanted to avoid. We had the chance to save on rent, utilities, and to give in to small warm cave feelings that come with the baby. Some thought we were nuts. But we approached it, as it seems you are, as a one-year-and-then-we'll-see plan. Now we've decided to stay in our place for at least two more years.

While this isn't a studio, I can speak to the overall notion of baby in smaller space than one might have envisioned. I'd suggest taking the temperature of the situation when he or she is around 4-5 months old, a "settled baby" (Penelope Leach). By then the two of you and your child will have a rhythm that can hold up to analysis. Again congratulations, and warmest wishes.

I'm curious... I know new parnets who are too friggin' tired and busy working to really get anything out of the city, for either themselves or their kids.

Is it still worth it... subways with strollers, walk-ups, tiny apartments?

Not arguing... just wondering when the "benefit of all there is to do in NYC" actually becomes a reality for most new parents.

(as a non-parent, I'm often frustrated by MY tiny space, and how little of NYC I can actually tae advantage of because I work five days a week, and when weekedns roll around, I am "sharing" my desired activities with WAYYYYY too many people.

Am I simply not in love with the city the way some are? What am I missing, while paying exorbitant rent and shoehorning myself into my apartment every night for the "privilege" of a Manhattan address?

yikes, typo city. sorry.

As much as I consider myself a city gal, I just hate it when people try to make it out to be the best possible life for everyone. I grew up in a smallish town, but in the neighborhood that was considered "bad"--it was old and I grew up in the same house my dad grew up in. It was city living on a smaller scale. It had its good points--especially when some of the older neighbors my dad knew were around. We knew the people at the corner store, etc. But, my parents also paid to send me to a a better school, and wouldn't allow us to play with the neighborhood kids, for the most part. We did a bit, but my parents were hyper-cautious about us. Rightly so too, as last I heard, one of the kids is in jail, and one a stripper. Flash forward to when I moved at 12, to a more "suburban" neighborhood. My younger brother had a better time because he could play with the kids and ride around on his bike. I basically just really truly learned how to ride my bike when I moved out there. All I'm saying is that depending on the situation, city life--even on a smaller scale--can be trying. Everything is in shades of grey in life...everything has its advantages and disadvantages. Not saying city life isn't right for some, but not for everyone. I'm going to shut up. :)

Haven't had time to read all the comments yet, but you raise a lot of good points that are keeping many of us from moving/buying. One thing though you clearly state that you rent, but intend to keep the old place even if you find a larger apartment for your new family. Unless you own or have a very understanding landlord (get it in writing) in the old space there are normally (probably legal) regulations about occupancy in order to maintain a lease (especially if it is rent-control or stabilized) on an apartment in New York City. It isn't something you need to be overly concerned about right now, but don't count on keeping the old place after you move.

"SKGR's 9-mo" sounds like some kind of semi-auto long gun.

Just what you need to keep safe in Brooklyn!

Here's the problem with the train: Grand Central is not all that convenient to most people. It's centrally located but sorta equally inconvenient for everybody. It would take DH 30 minutes min to get there on the 6, and then if he got the train thatsecond another 35 minutes min on the train (and that's to lower westchester) and then say a 10 minute walk/drive to your house (and pay westchester taxes, but that's another story). That's sort of a long commute to do twice a day. Penn Station is no better and just too depressing to consider. If they actually continue the trains down to WTC, we'll reconsider. For now, it's a one subway stop commute for us.

As a counterpoint to Christine's experiences, I grew up in a mid-sized city that had virtually no urban character, and I hated it. I would have loved the freedom of being able to go places on mass transit -- and having somewhere to go! -- in the tween years when one has nothing in common with one's parents but is too young to drive.

When I was very small, my mother probably would have been grateful for a nice museum within walking or mass-transit distance, to have somewhere to go other than the drugstore and the 5 and Dime.

(Geez... I should get out more often...)

We love what we call the urban-suburb of downtown Brooklyn. you get to enjoy all that the city has to offer and still leave it at the end of the day.

we're in Stuyvesant Heights, Bklyn, moved from Boerum Hill last yr after it got too "hip". as for getting around with the bubbler, we either did the Techno XT or a hiking backpack carrier which is great for trolling around the city on the weekends. moving from a 1 & 1/2 bedrom to a duplex with backyard also made a tremendous difference in our quality of life. having a seperate space or 2 or 3 for some "me time" is well worth it. when my partner and i first adopted our daughter, our old apartment was the perfect fit, but after she hit the 1 yr mark it was time to expand!

At first it always seems as though babies don't require much room/space, but it's the parents that actually need to be able to step away for a breather and an extra room really helps. as for the baby in the room, that lasted all of 3 days. we moved her to her nursery and it worked out for all of us. then we had the nanny (not full time) and suddenly our charming 1 & a 1/2 felt like a box. 2 parents, a nanny, a baby and 2 cats!!! In the winter!!! Not fun.

hats off to those who manage in a smaller space but it's not for everyone.

wow. First of all, chunky is funny - that's a sense of humor. I'm sick of hipsters, and calling hipsters "hipsters" at this point...let's get over it, people.

My husband and I have just come to the conclusion based on all these responses, that we could totally have our first baby in our 9 room, 2-bedroom, 2-story apartment rental..the possibilities are aparently endless 25 minutes outside of the city...

Wonder if the Missus Jonathan thinks "chunky" is a laugh riot.

CLM, in your third trimester we'll call you chunky and see how funny you think it is then

Christine, I think you raise good points, and this is why I said (waaay above in the very long thread) that what works for some will not work for others. Keep on evaluating what's working for everybody. I am not a suburb-hater. Really, it's just that I don't drive, and so the suburbs make me feel more trapped than the city with a toddler. Gotta get that driver's licence.

In some ways, I think Maxwell and Sara-Kate have a very good situation, since they will have inlaws nearby and a place out of town. Inlaws nearby can be a godsend when you're going a little crazy, especially if they're now retired. This can help with the difficulty of the first few months. (Of course, some inlaws just make it worse, but you can usually predict that well in advance of the baby arriving!)

Radmama's right about carriers - they're way easier with public transit. It's just that my son was heavy enough by the time he was ten months old that I didn't seem to get very many miles with the backpack.

re: new parents and exhaustion - well, I think life scales down a whole lot. But many very small babies find the colours in art galleries interesting, for instance. Really, for the first several months, they're just squirmy luggage, and can often accompany you to anything you find interesting, as long as it isn't something where you're still for too long.

In case I'm sounding like one of those parents that it is very fashionable to complain about, I should state that my restaurant policy is that I won't bring my kid to a restaurant where other people have paid good money to someone to get away from their own kids.

As I said, tiny apt. plus baby is not ideal, but can certainly work well, depending on baby and parents. Whether you're a nature or nurture subscriber, it seems likely that Maxwell's and Sara-Kate's baby will fit right into a small space.

And although she's now in Carroll Gardens (I think), here's a zine by someone who began life with her daughter in a 350 square foot apartment in the East Village (until her daughter was about 2 or so).

http://www.ayunhalliday.com/inky/

right, sorry for the long posts!

P2, I wonder the same sometimes, but with NYs late working hours (more 10-6 at best than 9-5) and longish commutes, it would be depressing to move out to a suburb and have my husband come home when kids are already asleep!

been there, I'm already "chunky" so not going to get a rise out of me at all... sorry! :) Some people take themselves too seriously! By the way, pregnant women are BEAUTIFUL in their CHUNKY 3rd Trimester.

MissyE--
Oh, believe me, I include the train-accessible suburbs in my "Um, we live here *why* again exactly?" ponderings.

Listen, goddamnit (two d's patrick, stick that in your pipe and smoke it): i have received 3 emails from people already about this "chunky" comment. my wife is thin, tall and uncommonly beautiful, okay? it was a goddamned joke. I pity and hate those of you who saw that post and didn't immediately realize that. Do you hear me? I PITY AND HATE YOU.

For the record, the wife calls me an a-hole about three times a day. So she is apparently coming up to speed on what constitutes brilliant humor as well. All you people, including my chunky-ass pregnant wife, are re-tahded if you ask me.

I don't think SHE is joking.

Neal, funny what you said about moving the baby to the nursery. We intended to keep our son in our room in a portable bassinet for a couple of months, that lasted about 3 weeks and I moved him to his own room and his own crib. I found that having him in the room with us disturbed his sleep - every little sound and I was checking on him - but once we moved him to his own room by the time I would get to the room most often he was back to sleep on his own. If we have another he/she will come home from the hospital and go straight into their own room and own crib.

If "chunky" is the worst thing Bride of Jonathan hears from her spouse's yap-hole during the course of a day, she's probably doing fine.

Maxwell and Sara-Kate, thank you for sharing your thought process on the choices you're making as you prepare for your family's new addition. From what you've written, it sounds like you've thought this through and you're reducing financial and logistical stressors. Frankly, that seems very smart, given the ways in which your financial, social and professional lives are about to be affected.

jamie pup, thanks for posting the links to those articles. I found them very interesting.

I must admit that it changed my perception a little bit, in the first article, when I found out that families that had moved away from their New York apartments were living in the city in two-bedroom, two-bathroom places that were upwards of 1,400 sq. feet (a.k.a. bigger than my new HOUSE). That's hardly shoehorning yourself in to a tiny apartment. And then to move to a 6,000 sq. ft. McMansion, and then complain that you "hardly use it," and that these new homes require more upkeep? Well, duh.

Back to the thread topic: we are moving into our first house, where we plan to eventually have children. It's definitely bigger than Maxwell's place, to be sure, but it's on the smaller end of house sizes. In some ways I hope (as I am guessing that Maxwell and Sara Kate are hoping) that the very fact of living in a smaller space will force us to be vigilant about the amount of kid-related gear (and junk) that gets kept around.

I'm facing a situation of having to build a nursery in a Jr4 apartment (a glorified 1 bedroom). The future nursery area is not a closed off room but a more of an open 8x10 space. It's a design challenge because closing this space off would affect the kitchen and dining area in terms of light and openess.

Since this IS mostly a design site, does anyone have any cool ideas they can share? There was one cool room someone showed once that was a home-made sliding plexi-glass door, where the light still came though, but I'd love to see more solutions to design problems like this!

Rickyannotta: i saw a couple do an amazing thing with a space just like that in their 1 BR in Tokyo. Here is what they did: they hung from the ceiling a rectangle made of wood that was as large as the space - say, 8x10. Each corner of the rectangle was suspended by a string that was attached to the ceiling with a screw-in "eye hook". From this rectangle they attached beautiful fabrics, which hung around the space and spilled to the floor, encapsulating the standup bassinet. They attached a fastener on the fabric so it could be closed when the baby was sleeping.

On Jackson Heights, we moved here 1 year ago after looking all over new york city with open minds. Looked all over Manhattan, in Long Island City, in Brooklyn hoods including Park Slope, Fort Greene, Clinton Hill and almost closed the deal on a 1-bed in Prospect Heights. The Prospect Heights apt just felt too expensive, so we started looking in Jackson Heights. We didn't know anything about it, but when we started checking out apartments... IT WAS A NO-BRAINER. Jackson Heights has an historic district with landmark buildings built in the 1920s with gorgeous interior gardens... Check it out..

But, um, haven't people caught on to JH, changing prices considerably in the past year since you found your place? Are there still bargains to be had?

Stop talking about Jackson Heights. Next thing you know there will be an article in "Time Out" and the real estate prices will be skyrocketing.

Jamie Pup, I'm more like New Tenant, NT saying something, or Jonathan?

Everyone: While I've never seen the lovely Ms. Jonathan, she, according to him, has her own verbal swords, such as my favorite "You used to be a scholar, now you are trash."

I just want to hang out on the sofa between the two of them and listen. Like a tennis match, with my head swinging from side to side, only better, because I'd find it entertaining. And I loves me my Jonathan fix here on AT. Never fails to make me smile.

Are we all going from personal experiences? We've been talking about them. I was in a small town, as a child. Less than 2,000 people. There was ONE school, for all the kids, first through twelfth grade. Until the new school was built for the younger group.

You could walk to wherever you had to go. My journey to the first school was through a forest. Not a lot of vehicular traffic. Not walk to transportation, just walk.

The few times I'm forced to go into the downtown San Francisco maze, I get anxious and stressed.

There aren't enough trees or plants or birds and the only wildlife there is are people stumbling out of a bar or some ridiculous tourists.

There's not enough SKY. Everything smells POLLUTED.

There's an anonymity in the city that I don't find pleasing. Much like how some treat the Internet. Saying or doing things without having to be responsible for what is done.

Ahhh, I'm just weird. People have said, throughout my life, things like "You dance to the beat of a different drummer" (or "You're weird"). I guess that's okay. Gives non-weird people something to talk about.

Andree--
Don't be a sucker to what *Jonathan* says Bride of Jonathan "says."

Jimkk,

I remember at the last party at which we spoke, I told you I'd give you the site for the Jackson Heights realtor we used--but then emails were deactivated.

Anyway, not to talk about JH more, but I'll link to it.

Prices have gone up, but they were so cheap a few years ago (before we bought, unfortunately) that even 2-bedrooms were under $150k then!!

Matilda:
Let me be honest - if I could afford to buy a good 1-bedroom in the west village, I'd be living there and not in Jackson Heights. I could afford to rent there, but I'm in my 40s and wanted to start building equity. I bought an 800 sq ft 1-bed in JH a year ago March, prewar, good building, no private courtyard, but brand new kitchen and bath, for 225K. At my first coop meeting, I was held up as an example of the ridiculous prices people were paying for apartments. I like the neighborhood pretty well and I love how much space i have at a low monthly cost. I like having a dishwasher and one of those monster fridges that dispense water and ice. My commute is a long E train ride away, but I always get a seat going home from WTC. There's lots of inventory now, way up from a year ago, but not through the major firms. Use the NYT website.

Tryon:
I used to live on Pinehurst Ave in a rent stabilized building. Loved the neighborhood, the parks, the river. Hated the A train, which seems to run local most weekends due to "construction". I would have bought there if I could have afforded it, but from the time I started thinking about it (March 04) to the time Iwas ready to buy (October 04) prices went up 50%. They've gone up even more since then.

Congratulations to you both. That is great news! I admire your decision. Pre-baby we also used to live in the city but we moved to another city when my husband got a new job and then 30 minutes out to the 'burbs before we started our family of currently, one. My son was in our room for the first few months. Initially, you spend an awful lot of time at home and that's when you really need the room, not for the baby, but for the parents to have room to breathe. As far as keeping the baby in the same room for the long term, ours woke up if one of us turned over in bed, or when my husband woke up to go to work so that doesn't work in the case of all babies either. Hopefully your new addition will be a much deeper sleeper!

i'm not going to get too bitchy here, because frankly it's getting exhausting. especially since i'm starting to like you guys and feel bad about judging people to their faces.

but, um, class privelege, much? not everybody CAN just pick up and move to a bigger place in Jersey or Park Slope. even if they want to.

my family lived in the projects until i was 6 years old. there were 5 of us in a 2 bedroom. in hindsight, it was one of the most enriching parts of my uprbinging because my parents weren't able to just throw money at any issue i had. i also wasn't sheilded from the world around me in the way i later was when we moved to more 'child friendly' housing in the burbs. i formed strong friendships with the other kids in my building, who were not uniformly white, upwardly mobile etc. etc. in the way my family was. i had to share a lot more with my brothers and with my friends. in fact, the sense of community in the projects was amazing in comparison to the burbs, where it seemed like all the parents were competing against each other to produce the most perfectest little overacheivers, and we were expected to be distrustful of everyone. in the projects it seemed like we were all in it together.

and, yes, i managed to avoid being shot in a drive by or molested by a drug dealer, in case anyone was wondering.

this isn't to say that everyone should pack up and move to the ghetto to raise their toddler, but just that honestly, kids can thrive in a lot of situations that middle class white adults would consider problematic or not-ideal. maxwell and sara kate seem to have a lovely set up with family close by, and the west village is extremely kid friendly. they'll do fine. i wish them much luck and happiness.

Fiona,
Thanks for the link. I've been so discouraged by real estate prices lately. I really should start seriously looking again.

Love this post. I am currently living in a small 2br. apartment and am expecting my first child. We currently use our second bedroom as an office. Baby will go in our bedroom in a bassinet (crib is too big). We cannot move the computer equipment out of the second bedroom because there is too much and no other place to put it(we work in high tech fields). What I mainly worry about is noise and lights? Do they wake up a lot from noise? Are they bothered by lights left on?

I think everyone's point is just what Opoponax said--basically, it ain't the environment that makes the kid, it's the parents, and from what very little I know about Maxwell and Sara Kate, I think the AT baby (hee hee :)) will be fine!

I guess in blogger speak, I should say "love this discussion" instead of "love this post," which was referring to the original post (not mine personally). Just felt like clearing that up...you can tell I am pretty tired, no?!

No problem, jimkk. I know that discouraged feeling!

Opoponax, I agree. My friend grew up in Alphabet City when it was hard-core, and she turned out totally fine. She got a scholarship to a great college, although granted, she had involved (though poor) parents. People make do, and the competitive parenting I see in the city tires me out.

And btw, yes, as Very Vermonty says, JH *is* a long commute downtown (an hour for my husband, who is in Battery Park), but if you work in mid-town, it's about 20-30 minutes.

Uhhh....can I wave the giant, great big red flag of IDIOTIC BULLSHIT and then perhaps shove the flagpole up your collective asses? it's great that tenaments turned out two upstanding citizens like opoponax and fiona's buddy but come on now. That is WILDLY the exception. WILDLY. The whole point is there is very little in the way of competent parenting in these places. The sheer amount of violence and drug use ALONE that happens every day in these buildings makes comparing a childhood in an urban tenament to the perils of competitive parenting in the suburbs the most extreme case of laughable, head-up-your-ass limousine liberal bullshit i almost want to throw up my fricking LUNCH.

Which reminds me, i sort of feel fat today. I think i might throw up my fricking lunch anyway

Maxwell, best of luck! Yes, not having a separate room for baby can keep you from doing what you have to do in your room -- get some clothes from the closet, read a book in bed, etc. Hearing every little snorf and snarf the baby makes can also be disturbing. They often get themselves back to sleep without your help and the little snorfs just make you anxious. I'd say it's nice to have baby in the room with you for about four or five months. After that, training them to take naps and to sleep at night in their own space makes sense. It lays the foundation for good sleep habits ever after. I have two good sleepers and that was my experience. After about 5 months they seem to know where they are and they get used to being there. That said, there are more ways than one to bring up baby. It's true that happy moms and dads are key. If you love your place, you'll find a way. You're pros at making spaces peaceful so you have more tools at your disposal than most of us do when it comes to making your place accommodate a new life.

Molly -

At the risk of repeating everything I've said earlier, depends on the baby!

My own position was, after weighing things in much the same way that maxwell and sara kate did, that it was worth the risk to stay put.

I will repeat that renovating with a toddler is hell. Avoid that if you can (we didn't manage it).

Jonathan,

Obviously those people are the exception, and it totally depends on the parents.

But my mom grew up on a farm in nowheresville Australia, without electricity until she was 14 because they couldn't get lines out there. She was not exposed to any "enriching experiences" that are considered so necessary now, and she turned out to a smart woman who lived in several countries and had one of the most interesting lives of anyone I know. So just saying that little Dylan or Madison are not doomed forever if they don't get into the best pre-K in Manhattan.

And yes, you do look fat today. Didn't want to bring it up, but now that you mention it...

Can't speak to the violence issue (other than perhaps saying "Columbine") but if you think drug use and abuse is solely a by-product of city (or tenEment) living, Jonathan, I suggest you take your head (never mind the flagpole) out of *your* ass LONG before your kids skip off to their first sequestered day at Montessori...

Molly -- early on, most babies are able to sleep pretty much anywhere, with any reasonable light/noise level. After about a month or two though, consider focusing on the baby sleeping/napping in the same room as much as possible (darkened and perhaps w/noise muffled by an air filter or white noise machine). Are you open to the idea of moving your baby into his or her own room? Sleeping in the same room as the baby indefinitely is doable (there are books and books and books on the subject), but we went the route of integrating our desks and office storage into our BR and the LR so our daughter would have her own space -- her grunty sleep would have kept us awake, and our comings and goings may have disturbed her sleep, even if not awakening her fully. We all worship sleep in this apartment -- we're sleepists -- and this set up has worked well for us.

Sleepists. Yes, we are too. That's a great term. Sleep is sacred and we don't like to do anything to compromise our sleep or our children's sleep. Once a baby is "settled" and starts to sleep regularly, it's no longer something you want to mess with. That's why I believe in separate spaces.

I'm luvin' how P2 hates Jonathan. Y'all should just go outside and fight it out with yer fists. :)

me-actually, Jonathan started it.

just to clarify (though the last thing i feel like doing is getting into a flagpole shoving match with the jonathan), in my experience having lived in both an 'inner-city' and suburban environment as a child, it's the parents and community that matter, not what kind of structure you live in or where that structure is placed. i come from a close knit family and have very involved and loving parents. thus i turned out pretty damn okay if i do say so myself. and i would imagine the same goes for Fiona's mom and friend.

and then you have the two girls who lived across the street from me in the burbs. they had a big beautiful house where they had lived from the time the mom got pregnant with the elder one. their dad had some big important job and they had every convenience money could buy. but their father was abusive when he wasn't completely distant, and their mom had a history of drug use and eating disorders. and, what do you know, both of them grew up to also have drug and food/body image problems, and both promptly got into abusive relationships as soon as they had the chance. i don't think either of them is particularly happy or well adjusted even now (heading into their 30's). but they had a 4000 sf house in the suburbs! there was no crime! they had a new bike every year and barbie dream houses and a backyard and montessori kindergarten! whatever could have gone wrong?

MissyElliot I love BH - what a great neighborhood.

Holly

I'm chunky and I'm not pregnant. o well.

If life is about anything it's about change. Maxwell and Sarah Kate are starting a new period in their lives (congrats!) and with this comes a lot of exploring and experimentation. Some things will work, some won't. Maybe the apartment will work, maybe it won't. These things aren't written in stone, despite the NY real estate market. The enormous amount of differing points of view posted here only goes to show that there is no one way to live with a baby much less do anything else. You can only try what you think will work & if it doesn't then look for other options. M & SK all the best to you. I think we will all be interested to hear how Baby likes your digs. (Why is it that I suspect Baby will have ideas about re-tiling the bathroom before he/she is barely out of the womb?)

All I'll say is that I've known quite a few drug-using, horribly-parented kids from rich households in Connecticut who turned out very messed up. And, I'm not referring to Jonathan, unless he decides the shoe fits.

So...wait...where is this assumption coming from that involved, caring parents in low income neighbourhoods are the exception over the rule? I work with low income families for a living, and put a lot of energy into community development. 90% of the people I meet are people concerned about their communities and neighbourhoods. Many low income people get involved because they want to make their neighbourhoods better. It's not their fault that they are not fabulously well-off and can't afford a McMansion to raise their kids in. I really wish people would take their blinders off when it comes to the lives and hearts of "the poor." Honestly. The prejudice is disgusting.

BTW, I spent the first 8 years of my life in a very nice house in the country, until my folks split. We shared our property with rattle snakes, who used to slither onto our property daily. The hills where we wandered were filled with abandoned mines and rattle snake pits. And then there were the hunters. Oh, and the bats! I forgot about the bats. Our cat used to catch them and let them loose, still alive and rabid, in the basement. And we had a black widow spider living in our basement, too, where she happily reproduced. I won't even bring up all the drug and alcohol abuse involved in country living, although let me tell you, bush parties are something spectacular. And that was SO much safer than living in an urban low income neighbourhood, yes?

I want to move to Westport, CT, so my children will turn out as nicely as Jonathan.

Emily, regarding your earlier post on living with a baby in a one BR with no dishwasher or WD, have you seen the countertop dishwashers? Here's one that I've heard good things about

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000674526/002-9785503-4548061?v=glance&n=284507

While it is possible to adapt to nearly any situation, as they get older babies=lots of dishes. Even the smalles automatic one might be a tremendous relief.
As for life with a baby and no WD -- while it will likely be difficult occasionally, if you have enough of the basics (onesies, sleepers, etc) to allow for a week's worth of laundry to pile up, should be fine.

Something I forgot to mention to those who are combining small spaces and growing babies, the Baby Hammock (http://www.ambybaby.com/). Years ago saw this scene in Charlie Chaplin's The Kid -- http://ia300107.us.archive.org/3/items/TheKid/The_Kid.thumbs/The_Kid_00000017.jpg

-- and thought that it was exactly how a baby should sleep. Then we found the baby hammock. While it's now being marketed to parents of babies who are having a tough time sleeping, we bought one four months before ours was born. It was her fulltime bed, first right next to ours, then to the foot of our bed, then to her own room. Hammock is flexible in terms of where in the room it can be placed, portable (whole thing fits into a duffel bag, and can be checked on planes) and... well, it's the best thing ever. Within a few weeks, the baby learns how to make herself bounce, soothing herself to sleep. The design is a bit industrial but we came to love it. Just great. Get a bit fuzzy and nostalgic just writing about it.

Dorianne,

I did not mean to offend, and my words were not well-chosen. Statistically, I have no idea how involved poor parents are.

I was a substitute kindergarten teacher in a low-income school in Florida while I was in grad school, and it was the most difficult job that I have EVER held. By far. Kudos to the people who do that for a living. I won't go into why, because it will make Jonathan feel like I'm making his point, but I will also say that I went to an expensive private school, and there were many, many issues there, too. In fact, one of my best friends from high school, who was taking all senior AP classes in 9th grade, is a total mess now.

Just a note regarding affordable neighborhoods in Brooklyn. I just bought a large studio about 700 sqft (which can be partitioned to make a larger bedroom) with a small separate office (could be used as a small bedroom) in the Kensington neighborhood for under 155k. Lots of co-ops still sell in this area for under 200k (corcoran has even invaded) and is surrounded by beautiful huge houses. There are a lot of grocery stores (including a food co-op), a great cafe, and a park slope-ish restaurant (a new one is opening soon), along with the mixed local flavor. In addition, it's conveniently near the F and the Q so it's accessible to Manhattan and all the great spots in Park Slope (2 stops away), Carroll Gardens, DUMBO, LES. I've noticed that Midwood, the neighborhood just past Kensington, constantly has 1-bedrooms selling for under 200k.

Sure, it's not Park Slope or even Prospect Heights (yet), but Brooklyn still has good deals available. I have great eastern and northern exposure, almost the top floor, and views of trees (not of buildings). I'll put up with the "developing" atmosphere for the good price and (hopefully) increase of value in the years to come.

kensington is SO FAR from manhattan.

i have a friend who bought a house out there, and she and her husband and baby are very happy there. however, they are telecommuting freelance writers who rarely need to commute into the city.

it seems like a great place to live if you're either working from home or willing to deal with the outrageous commute (and not too manhattan centric in your social life). but i don't know that it's a universal solution to a manhattanite's general desire for more space. especially a manhattanite who's happy enough being a manhattanite that they've already decided they're fine having their baby in a 250 square foot apartment in the west village.

We've now mixed and matched city/suburb/country, good/bad/abusive parants, poor/middle-class/rich parents, with kids that grow up fine/messed-up.

Nature/nuture, old argument. And it seems to be a combination of some kind of genetic predisposition and how/where the child is raised. It might matter the most in children that might go either way...they're born right in the middle of Mother Teresa and Hitler (loving/hating). Or Mother Teresa and Hilton (Paris, hehehe)...Giving/taking.

If that's so, it may or may not matter what parents can do or have or are. Then it's a crap shoot. You just don't KNOW. You do what you can with what you've got and hope for the best.

So what IS important then? And how does it relate to design?

Babies are supposed to prefer checkerboards and bull's eyes to look at and to learn to focus.

Babies form mental templates of faces, so maybe exposure to many different kinds of faces, colors, shapes, features would be good. If not in taking the child out for a walk in the stroller, then in putting up a bunch of face pictures printed off the Internet.

Sounds can be soothing or distractive. Considering sounds and noise levels in the home may cause alteration of design for the room, like heavier drapes or shades the muffle outside noise. Learning how to close the kitchen cabinets quietly if you have a jumpy infant (and some are indeed jumpier than others).

What other specific design elements could be used to enhance the baby's level of contentment in it's surroundings, no matter where the baby lives?

You parents out there, what were some of your DESIGN secrets? What worked for you? Crib vs. bassinet? Any brands make it easier to lift the baby up?

Good design questions...what makes a good stroller a good stroller? Where is it stored? How many cubic feet is used for baby supplies? Where do you store them?

Wow, this discussion is so educational and just proves that real estate pricing is SO relative.

Here I am in Richmond, dreading the "expensive" new condo's ($250-$350,000) cropping up all over my neighborhood and how they are going to cause my 1BD's rent ($625) to rise. And there you are considering 2BD apartments for half a million as "cheap"! Wow!

Find me an apt. in Brooklyn within 30 mins commute to Union Square, with everything I got for the same price--because I'd love to know where that is.

Yes, Kensington is not 15 min. commute to Manhattan... but at one time, I'm sure Windsor Terrace/Park Slope, Inwood, Jackson Heights, was considered "far", "inconvenient". I think those who have a strong desire for more space for less money and want to buy, will realize 30 mins is not a bad a commute and create a thriving community just as they did in the more gentrified areas closer to Manhattan.

Fact of the matter is, those gentrified regions in Brooklyn are now priced close to Manhattan's. It really depends how much you're willing to put up with. I was in Park Slope, renting a same size apartment before moving. Sure, I didn't want to give up the great neighborhood, but I couldn't justify paying my landlord's mortgage for the rest of my life or making improvements to their building (in addition to paying rent), while they reap the benefits of their "home improvement".

If you have the money to buy in Manhattan or Brooklyn Heights, fantastic! I'd do the same. And if I had a $500/month rental in Manhattan, I'd stay there too. For those who don't have the privilege of having bought (or rented) earlier in those areas closer to Manhattan, I find Kensington to be a great compromise. At least there are 2 subway lines (unlike Red Hook). I looked everywhere in the neighborhoods closer to Manhattan, and they are crazy expensive or they are now only putting up half-million-plus condos/co-ops.

15 mins more on the subway was not the make it or break it decision for me. However... going to Bensonhurst/Bay Ridge was my equivalent of "too far" despite the number of subway lines going there.

My husband grew up in of the smallest towns in an asian metropolis. His parents were immigrants due to partition. No fancy school, No fancy house, lived with minimal necessites. He turned out fine - he's not a womanizer, is not a alcoholic or a drug user. when it came time to go to college he went to the finest in the world with a scholarship and when he wanted to come to the states to study, his parents said they didn't have the money. So he came here to join one of the finest investment banks - he loves to travel, plays his musical instrument very well ( the only luxury that he had while growing up) is into nature big time - yes, he is hyper sensitive about issues like being consumeristic and materialistic - don't even bring a discussion up this and he will stand to give the nuances of it.

this way or that way - children will grow up, and they know where their motivation and inspiration will come from - we can do only so much and the rest we can pray that they turn out well.

So parents-to-be, parents out there - ASK the almighty to give you wisdom as you race your child.

Mela - we live in Brooklyn Heights, but I happen to love Kensington. I think it is a really great neighborhood to begin with, and of course as more people move there more amenities will come. I lived in Windsor Terrace back in the late 80s and believe me, there was great local shopping but no place (other than the bagel store) to get a cup of coffee and no hip restaurants, and now look at it. Personally, I liked it better the way it was, but that's just me.

I also think it's funny that Brooklyn Heights is not considered "hip," I guess it's really not anymore compared to Cobble Hill and Park Slope, but that's ok with me. I like the campus type feel (Brooklyn Law School is right here) and the fact that there are a mix of ages from very young to very old. Apartments are cheaper here than in Park Slope (are you listening Maxwell and Sara Kate?) and there are just so many amenities.

why do i always get attacked around here. someday i will grow tired of being your jesus on the cross, people. then you'll be sorry.

as much as you nitwits berated me about an urban childhood vs connecticut, might i remind you we chose to move to park slope where we are raising our baby? so obviously we made that decision. the wife, who is a funny looking foreign type, was concerned that connecticut would be ethnically homogenuous. "Well, that's the point!" I said. She was not amused

OK, I did read all the psots but can't be arsed to find exact quotes so bear with me here:

I'm not sure that anyone has said that overloading your children with mountains of stuff to satisfy their every whim etc. is a good thing. On the contrary, everyone here seems to be in agreement that it is the simple things that matter so I'm not sure why anyone needs to defend this stance. Jonathan's point was different and it is a response to that that I want to address.

Somone said that they did not like anyone talking about growing up in low income hoods meant that parents were not involved etc. Well, the problem with trying to be too pc is that there are a lot of young families in low income hoods that do need help because, no matter how well intentioned they are, there are too many obstacles in their way to succeed without some help.

OK, I do not work professionally with them but I have done voluntary work in East Harlem with kids ranging from 5/6 to teens and they need help. All the parents I knew were barely out of their teens themselves and were having a hard time raising their children. It was not uncommon to see children younger than 10 out on the streets up to midnight and no matter what any pc person tells you, East Harlem (I'm talking around and above 113th st stop) is not a safe place.

I was involved in a brownstoner discussion with someone where we both agreed that mentoring was something that we could do to make a significant difference and we both went away challenged to start doing that. So please don't minimize the sigificantly more difficult circumstances that raising a child in an area like East Harlem presents in the interests of making sure no one thinks that caring parents do not live there. They do but they need help.

Climbs off the soapbox.


BTW, Andree, I liked your last post.

Their needs are greater than your average middle class family in their suburban/UWS/Park Slope hood despite empirical evidence showing how screwed up druggies can be raised in those areas too.

Oops, I forgot about that last paragraph that I had typed earlier. You get the gist.

Have you looked at the Lower East Side. You can get a 2 bedroom in need of a gut renovation for anywhere from $575k to $700k. If you're into mid-century modern the apts really lend themselves to that style.

You can see some listings here
http://www.lohorealty.com/index.htm

or on NY Times do a zip code search under 10002.
Believe it or not there are some very good schools in the area. If you like water views there's East River or if you want to be close to transportation and restaurants there's Seward Park.
Good luck.

skip the LES, move to Hoboken or Jersey City, where a new-construction 1200 sq ft 2br,2bath with a deeded parking spot goes for $600 - 700k.

There are affordable places in the NYC area. They are just not in the west village.

The GR's don't want new construction it seems, they want to be able to personalize their place and that means an older building which will also probably be cheaper. That is why they should move to Brooklyn Heights!! Great playgrounds and preschools too for when that time comes.

Jonathan: from all the insults you toss around, it is clear that you WANT to be attacked. You should thank everyone for giving you your moment to be "jesus on the cross."

Matilda,
I like Brooklyn Heights a lot as well! Great area.. Funny, I never considered it "unhip"! It's all one's perspective.

Is everyone here trust fund babies? Sorry, but to those suggesting 2 bedrooms for up to 700k, it's just not possible for myself: a single chick with a good income, but wants to own. If you have 2 incomes, of course it's easier to find something larger, better, and suddenly, 600k is a steal. I found my place by myself, with no inheritance, no help from Mom and Dad, and meager savings and some debt. I applaud all those who have done the same. I only wish I got here earlier when 800 sqft 1 br apts. were going for 140k.

Thank you Apartment Therapy for this segment.

Besides financial motivation, is anyone staying in their apartment because it is a better choice environmentally?

We live in a Washington DC neighborhood with lovely trees, a bus stops in front of our apt building every 10 minutes, a Whole Foods is 1.5 blocks away and a park is across the street.

Raising a family in a high density neighborhood in an apt. building is far kinder to the planet than moving to a tract housing subdivision in the suburbs or even moving into a rowhouse.

In terms of energy and resource usage, the impact of an average North American is double that of a European, but seven times that of the average Asian or African.

See for what your own impact is here: ecofoot.org

Happy homemaking to you all~

well if u cant afford to live in nyc,move i did before gullianni took over as mayor

M&SK, pleeeeeeease don't move to JC if you decide to come to NJ. It's not comparable to Hoboken. The prices are less than HOB, and some of the new construction condos are like high-end hotels, but only if you would go to a high-end hotel where the hotel interior is the exclusive destination. There's nothing to do. It's been a very hard 5 years for me, moving from WTC to Soho to Tribeca to Tribeca to Hoboken to Hoboken to JC where I am now, and it's awful. Even being close to the PATH doesn't make for a quick commute. I'm across the street from the Grove St. station but it's still 45 minutes to midtown (note: the Hoboken PATH is a whole different story). And even if you're not commuting, getting to the city off-hours by PATH takes about as long as swimming the river. It's awful. Stay put. And of course, congratulations and good luck!!

I find this entire topic offensive, let alone the responses and "dialogue" that follows. This entire ilk of urban dweller and the perpetuation of the "have's and have's less" is what has singlehandedly created an environment of self-absorption and abhorrent greed that has permeated New York City. The city was once a place that fostered creativity and diversity and there was a certain amount of discretion that was excersized when discussing the aquisition of property. This shameless whining over losing out on what is referred to as a "dreamy raw space on 8th Street", which probably exists after displacing a low-income family is deplorable.
The idea of raising a family in NY is almost criminal; I thought we moved here to get away from the suburbs. Now we trip over strollers in botiques and intelligent discource has been replaced by tales of parenting. To those who say if you don't like it, leave; I am. Just bought a one-way to Prague. If that doesn't work I might as well head on up to Scarsdale where there's more of an edge than Tribeca. Oh and by the way, Maxwell shamelessly shares his plans on keeping his rental as an "office" ; how does THAT work?

Um, hate to be politically insensitive but this whole discussion about sharing your room with your kids.........where do you have sex? Do you have sex with your kids in the room or do you sneak off to the loo for intimacy? This borders (very closely) to child abuse and this selfish quest for the perfect space and proper parenting considerations in the big city are freaking vile. Do you people have any idea how how utterly absurd your dialogue plays outside your city?

Oh dear.
Leonardo and Mar, you are both in the wrong place. Get yourselves over to urbanbaby.com now and start posting away. They are helpless and lost and need your collective wisdom desperately. You are preaching to the wrong crowd here. We are nothing compared to them. Seriously.

"Oh and by the way, Maxwell shamelessly shares his plans on keeping his rental as an "office" ; how does THAT work? "

Yes I was a bit narked by this as well - if people all over NYC have more than one apartment for themselves, no wonder prices are so high and its so hard to find a place to live

Yeah, the only thing about Maxwell's plan that really bothered me was the bit about keeping his apartment as an "office/guest room" after he moves. I remember reading in one of the bajillion articles about his amazingly well-designed apartment that it is rent-stabilized (and I think he only pays 700 or 800 a month for it?). Holding on to a rent-stabilized apartment that isn't your primary residence is not only not-allowed, it is a pretty greedy, d-bag move, given the shortage of affordable housing in this city. He explains how he's enjoyed the benefits of his nice affordable (stabilized) apartment over the years and then brags about how he plans to (illegally) deny those benefits to the next person in line once he's moved out? Not cool! For someone who preaches the gospel of living with less, using only what you need, etc., it also strikes me as a wee ... hypocritical.