Yesterday's comments on Atlantico's prices prompted us to weigh in on the subject of furniture prices - something that we struggle with every day when working with clients.
The truth is good furniture costs MONEY, which is why we should be treating these purchases as INVESTMENTS and not as consumables (see also our post on Protein v. Carbohydate Furniture).
On a number of occasions we have considered building a table or shelf for a client only to be stopped by the walloping high price. One of our high end
resources, Ronald Signorelli, who builds custom made desks and cabinets for Wall Street CEO’s that can cost up to $50,000 apiece, once told us,
“Don’t build it yourself unless you have a lot of money. Go look at Crate & Barrel. They do a good job and no one can compete with their prices.”
When we asked him how come their prices were so much lower, he said,
“Because they make their furniture in quantity. If you make things in quantity, you can really bring down the price. Anytime you build something once, such as in a custom situation, you have to pay for the full cost of making it. “
While we have all grown used to the furniture prices we see commonly advertised at our national stores, such as Ikea, where a sofa can cost $300, we have forgotten that these prices do not reflect the real cost of building an individual piece of furniture.
At least not in this country. These prices can only be achieved by very large companies that can manage to produce and sell furniture in quantities.
Smaller stores and custom made retailers who pay living wages to skilled craftsmen in this country (or even overseas) have to charge a lot more for a sofa.
And in most cases, there is a HUGE difference in the quality, and you are buying something that will last far longer and be a better investment.
This is not a pitch for spending a lot of money, but for spending it consciously.
Don’t always think you are getting a great deal when something costs less than you expect, and don’t always think you are getting cheated when something costs more than you expect.
On this blog we always strive to run the spectrum because we believe in buying a few nice pieces when we feel flush and are really inspired by the design and the craftsmanship. But we also know that there are some awesome affordable pieces to be spotted out there and depend on the creative use of these things to finish our home. We also know there are some readers out there who can afford anything and some who are on tight budgets all the time. We aim to please. (Photo: photo.net) MGR
I have to agree about the idea of investing in furniture and not treating it as a consumable. Having just gone through the process of furnishing a new loft, I can say that many prices surprised me, but I realized that ultimately I was willing to pay for the value that well designed and well made furniture offers.
The first time I bought furniture I cheaped out and ended up having to replace most of it within 3 years. When I invested in good furniture, not only does it last much longer, but I was able to sell used at a very good price.
Don't get me wrong, I still love Ikea. But paper-and-glue-and-sawdust fiber board won't last the way solid wood, plywood or even MDF will.
For me, the biggest surprise is that in some cases, there is not a big difference in places like Room & Board and places like Ligne-Roset on some items.
Ted
I disagree with this statement: "DonÂ’t build it yourself unless you have a lot of money." I have built a lot of excellent furniture for far less than I could have bought it. The problem is, you have to have a good understanding of how things are made, materials, production methods, etc. I don't have furniture built by custom furniture shops- I have components made by industrial machine shops and cabinet makers. But to do that, you can't show up to a shop with a napkin sketch, or expect to be able to tweak it after it's done. I guess it helps that I'm an engineer and design furniture for a living, but really anyone with a bit of skill can make it work. You're not going to undercut IKEA or C&B, but you can usually beat DWR.
Are they talking about actually building the furniture, or just having it built? Because the two are very, very different. I'm sure it's very expensive to hire someone to build a custom piece for you, but I frequently find that for unusual pieces, it's cheaper to build it myself than pay furniture store prices. Unless it's particle board, of course.
Caveat: I generally use dimensional lumber or plywood, rather than pay through the nose for hardwoods.
Does anyone know what the quality of Bo Concept furniture is like?
Bo Concept varies by upholstered and case goods (the wood stuff). On case goods, I think they fall substantially above IKEA and West Elm quality, but (imho) not far enough above to warrant the price differential. I think you'd be better off tracking down manufacturers like Baronet and checking out those options.
Bo Concept's upholstered pieces seem (to me) generally better made than their wood stuff, but prices veer towards Room & Board and C&B.
Great follow up to yesterday's post on Atlantico.
But I strongly agree with MGR on "furniture as investment". That sometimes means waiting for sales, saving up until you can afford a quality piece, considering floor samples, watching for warehouse slaes, etc. But I've had my couch for over ten years, and many other pieces just as long.
There's a difference between an investment and a "durable good." Investments can appreciate. Durable goods always depreciate, albeit over long periods of time. When budgeting for furniture, consider making a depreciation schedule--how much will your purchase cost per year over its expected lifetime? If you plan to finance, make sure you include the interest and other charges. Is that a reasonable amount to pay for a year of use? You can find a good target price this way.
I just meant "as investment" in a broader sense... as opposed to furniture that wears out in a year or less. But there is indeed furniture that can appreciate, too.
I really enjoyed reading this thread and yesterday's Atlantico thread. (I love a good healthy debate!) AE, thanks for responding to my earlier question. I have a better understanding of your point.
The elephant in the room here is that beyond a certain point, the premiums you pay are for design, not construction, and I think that's why expensive furniture is often seen as indulgent. I don't think anyone disagrees with the concept of spending more to get something that will be more durable, but given that I only plan on living for another 50 years or so, I think I can find a desk or cabinet for significantly less than $50,000 that will last me quite well that entire time.
I think it's OK to say that you're going to spend money to have something unusual or that you find particularly visually appealing, but of course when you do, those with a different aesthetic sense or who are thriftier are going to think you wasted your money.
for the most part, i also believe in quality over quantity, furnishing your space thoughtfully & gradually rather than going for instant gratification so that over time you will build up a collection of pieces you really love, blah blah blah. this is the standard advice of "experts" and it's pretty much how my boyfriend & i are trying to go about things. BUT!! as much as i love this beautiful theory, i have to say that in reality (for me at least), it means that things can look pretty ugly in the meantime.
for example: we moved into our current place in late august of last year. after months of searching, we finally found a sofa we liked (a major purchase for us), but it'll be a while before we're able to get a dining table/chairs or other stuff like coffee/accent tables. naturally, our current dining set (bought for cheap from a friend) and coffee table (even older, also cheap) clash horribly, both with the sofa & with each other. and up until a few days ago, the tv was still sitting on top of the box our stereo came in. the overall effect of this kind of mishmash doesn't even qualify as "eclectic". it just looks bad, period.
i don't want to sound like i'm complaining too much, though, b/c i realize it's not the end of the world & that there are more important things in life than furniture. i just want to point out that trying to go the "quality" route can sometimes be pretty frustrating--like when it involves going for months w/o anything to sit on.
As a retail furniture/interiors employee, I thank you for pointing out what is so obvious to those of us on the other side of the fabric handles and sample rings.
Good furniture costs money. And it's worth it.
My message to shoppers: A good furniture salesperson (yes, I said it, a salesperson!) can answer your questions regarding differences in quality, reasons for price jumps, etc. Small shops and firms are best at this, of course. Ask a few questions and take the time to listen and you'll understand the long-term benefits of spending more.
I often ask my customers to answer a question--what is their favorite, most treasured belonging? How long have they had it? Why is it still so beloved?
Not surprisingly to me, the answer is very often a piece of handed-down antique family furniture, a grandfather's prized camera, an aunt's pricey set of porcelain, etc. These are all high-quality items that took time, work and patience to acquire. They were enjoyed, cared for, and passed on....because they were high-quality (and rarely cheap) to begin with.
Not to say that every piece of furniture should be an expensive heirloom-quality 'piece', but you can see, hopefully, my point.
Thank you again.
I learned this the hard way too... who hasn't had "temporary" furniture as a young adult?
But our tastes mature, and in retrospect, I'm glad that my first furniture mistakes were inexpensive ones! I wouldn't want to live forever with the things I bought when I was 23. (Your mileage may vary if you're very sure of what you've always wanted in your environment).
Last year, we had a sofa custom-made according to our measurements with down cushions, etc, and the quality of this $3,000 purchase versus the $500 sofa we bought as a young couple is vast. We plan on having this for a very long time, so amortized over the years, it's reasonable.
I would bet that Atlantico's pieces are very well-made, but the problem for many people is that they can get something that LOOKS very similar and functions adequately at West Elm or Ikea for much less.
I DO buy simple things like bracketless shelving from these mass-market outlets and spend the rest of the budget on antiques because they are well-priced for the sturdiness and quality you receive, they're unique, and they don't lose value. I find it hard to find unique modern pieces which don't cost an arm and a leg.
Where does one go to get a couch custom made? Do you work through a designer? an upholsterer?
After a series of cheap ikea, etc. couches I finally bought something really nice last year that I spent way to much on. Since I bought it, the cat has puked on it several times and regularly uses it as a scratching post, and we and our houseguests have spilled all sorts of stuff on it. Who knows how much longer it will last, especially if and when we start a family. Plus, it looks very sleek and modern now, but in 5 years, it will probably look as overplayed as the maple & brushed steel stuff (from 5 years ago) looks today.
My next couch will definitely be of the carbohydrate variety.
GL brings up a good point and it got me thinking. Some of us really are bigger consumers and want to change furniture/redecorate every few years. Especially when one is lucky enough to achieve ownership, there's the greater desire to have your surroundings reflect your personality--and spend more money doing it. And, let's face it, some of us (okay, me) are a bit manic and are always wanting to change things up stylistically. So, I don't consider "carbohydrate" furnishings as necessarily a bad thing. They're easier to get rid of on Craig's List or garage sales, and not as much of a strain on the wallet. (I really wonder how much of the stuff I currently own will still be in my place 5 years from now. So the concept of "heirloom" pieces is lost on me.) "Protein" furniture (especially higher-end or custom pieces) seem cost prohibitive for the Craig's List buyer when it comes time to re-sell, so they require the seller to wait for a very specific buyer, or sell off at the fraction of the price... I guess, I just feel a little burned at having to sell off some fantastic "protein" pieces before my last move for literally one-fifth or one-sixth of the purchase price--despite only being 6-8 months old. (I know, wah-wah-wah, listen to the tragic yuppie... I'm not really complaining here, just making a case for "carbs"!)
GL--
Truly good sofas can be cleaned, reupholstered and repaired as necessary (you pay the bulk for the innards, whihc will stand the test of time). But if you want to continue to throw good money after bad by re-paying for a frame whenever you have a spill or puke incident, go right ahead. You are a furniture marketers dream client.
Hey, Enrique, if you're letting your (mighty fine) stuff go for fractions, let me know when you are fixin' to move again!! ;)
But I am surprised to hear you think "carb" furniture is generally easier to get rid of. Is it easier, or is there just less guilt associated with moving on from it?
(no to imply that that is your situation, but it would be mine...)
Good furniture does indeed cost money - but one has to know where/how to look too. Develope an eye and go to antiques shows! Instead of paying a fortune for a modern reproduction buy the real thing. 20th Century furniture is hot right now and the prices for knockoffs and reissues (i.e. Barcelona chair)are astronomical. New York City has a terrific selection of shows at the Armory on Lexington and 26th Street and great things can be found at the famous Triple Pier Antiques Show.
Patrick. To answer your question, the people who scour L.A.'s Craig's List for furniture are (more often than not) looking for a bargain--and not necessarily good design. So, the cheaper "carb" pieces I've listed sold almost immediately--mostly because they were bargains. But that hasn't been the case when I've listed more expensive pieces. For example, when I listed a rectangular coffee table I had custom-ordered with a Macassar Ebony veneer (in a lacquer finish) on top of boxy mirror-finished chrome base, I got lots of bites but no offers. I finally ended up selling it to a friend for $300, a fraction of what I paid. Design-savvy buyers are few and far between on Craig's List. But you can't beat the convenience of CL, especially when you need to get rid off stuff in a hurry and don't want to deal with staging a yard sale. (And to be fair, I probably did overpay for the coffee table.)
It's a hard call, and one I'm struggling with right now. We desperately need a new couch, and saw a fairly expensive one we LOVED--but it would immediately fall prey to our cat. (She doesn't really scratch furniture, but this only came in a nubby material that seemed to be asking for trouble.) We are also planning to have a baby in the next couple of years, so we'd be unleashing a toddler on the couch.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought reupholstering a couch ran around $1200 (when you include moderately priced material), which is roughly around the cost of a new couch from Room and Board.
There's a part of me that thinks a cheap couch might be the answer for now, but then I wonder--then, will there ever be an ideal time to get the really nice couch?
I took an interior design class a year or two ago, and my teacher, a charming gal with a New Jersey accent, kept saying, "You've gotta have one Mercedes in the room—it'll make all those Toyotas and Dodges look so much better."
I think it was her convaluted way of saying it's okay to buy some of your stuff from Baker/Donghia/fill in your favorite expensive decor spot here as well as the IKEAs and Pier Ones of the world. I know I took her to heart and bought a Barbara Barry (Baker) art deco style table. It looks great in the same room with all my Crate and Barrel stuff!