apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

Dishwasher...

If you are in a studio or one bedroom and it's only 1-2 people, I'd say a very small dishwasher could be a great thing. Otherwise, it's kind of a drag filling up a machine over the course of a few days, attracting bugs if nothing else. By the time you turn the thing on, anything you didn't already rinse at the sink is probably caked on and won't get clean in the washer anyway.

But it's a drag rinsing your dishes before loading the dishwasher anyway... and who knows if hijiki is watching... what a waste of water to double the cleaning process up, and electricity to boot.

So if it's a small apartment with few inhabitants... I'd say small washer or no washer. And small ones, I'd imagine, are customized and only for the rich.

I wonder what the income demographic is for the AT Patients.

Why would you tear out mouldings if you live in a historic building (former factory)? Shouldn't the solution be, Just Live In A Modern Building?
This is what I hate about "modern design" -- the destruction of perfectly good architectural elements. Modern is not necessarily synonomous with "no detail." Ugh!

I should say that this loft space was just that--space--when I bought it. Everything you see here has been added. In fact, the maple floor is a reclaimed barn floor, approximately 125 years old. All of the original exposed ceiling and columns have been preserved/restored. There is also an exposed brick wall that has been repointed. I have actually gone to great lengths to ensure that the original elements of the factory are in-tact. It's the walls , etc. that I have added myself that have had the moulding that had to be removed, in particular to allow more of the floor and ceiling to show. The fundamental design principle that was employed was that the "shell" of the space (exterior walls, ceiling, and floor) are original, while everything inside them are new. This translates to the outside design of the building as well, where a curved glass lobby was attached to the facade of the building, letting the original brickwork show through.

I gave it an "is really nice," because it will be, although it "is not my style," also. I can imagine housesitting for a week and really enjoying it, and then enjoying going back to my own kitchen.

Nice clean lines... I'm curious as to how the kitchen wil relate to the rest of the space as well as more of a window/view. In fact, I'd urge all contestants with open kitchen plans to submit photos that detail how the kitchen area will relate to the immediate space around it. As a new York foodie, this contest is particularly exciting for me. Good luck with your new kitchen!

I can't help but notice that every kitchen we've seen seems to have a dishwasher. What are people's feelings on the necessity of having one? My mother never had or wanted one in her suburban house and I've never had one in my various apartments here in NY and elsewhere. Just never felt the need.

On the other hand I prefer a large frost-free refrigerator, but I don't have one of those either.

I guess it depends on how much you like washing dishes by hand.

Am I the only one who finds a calming Zen in washing dishes by hand? ;)

This kitchen just isn't my style, but it still looks like it's going to be great when you finish putting it together...

The only apartment I've ever had where there was a dishwasher had a broken dishwasher... We used it as a two-story dish rack, which was nice but kinda stupid. I've just never needed one. When I was a kid, one of my chores was washing the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher, so I don't think they're particularly useful. Then again, I don't cook big meals or have a family of four who won't clean up after themselves. I would like to have a washer/dryer for laundry, one of these days.

It's hard to really love a kitchen that hasn't been used yet but, it is a good design for the space. I like the stove in the island, good solution and so sociable!

It's clean, I'll give you that. But I can't imagine anything being cooked in this kitchen. And I can't imagine it producing anything appetizing either.

do the counters jut out beyond the wall into the "hallway"? and, what's on the other side of the fridge?

I much prefer having a dishwasher. I do, however, have a friend who lives in the city who hates dishwashers. She had a dishwasher installed in her kitchen solely for the resale value of the apartment, but she refuses to use it, and won't let the rest of her family use it, either.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE my dishwasher. It saves me so much time. Its nice for the week when I'm busy, and also the weekend, after eating dinner, just put the dishes in the dishwasher, and usually I use that time to go for a walk with my bf to the park. Also love electrosol tabs.
I can't imagine being without one now.

Mary, Oooh yeah, my idea of luxury is my own washer/dryer for laundry and space for an ironing board. I once lived in an old "luxury" building in Minneapolis which and a built in ironing board and an original built in "ice box" where the ice could be slipped in the back of the box by the delivery man thru a small separate door in the hallway.

Oh by the way, back on topic I think this kitchen will look great when its done. Joey, do you have a space for a microwave?

To Zia-

Of course nothing can be cooked in this kitchen. The gas line hasn't even been hooked up yet, and the sink isn't plumbed either ;) However, I'm curious as to why you think it can't produce anything appetizing. Last time I checked, the Jetsons' self-cooking kitchen hadn't made it to the mass-market, it's the chef who does the cooking.

To Seema-

The counters do just out just beyond the wall. It's a loft so there really isn't a 'hallway' per se. The kichen is in the corner of a roughly 25x25' space, so it's open on 3 sides. The idea of making the cabinets stick out is to balance the island, and make it look more free-standing. On the other side of the fridge is one of those full-height pantry cabinets, with the pull-out shelves. The kitchen was set up so all the food is stored around the fridge, all the pots/pans are in the island cabinets, all the dishes are above the sink/dishwasher.

Re- dishwashers, I'm not even sure how much I'll use it, which is why I opted for the one that will be hidden. However, a dishwasher was a standard offering from the developer of the building, so I took the credit for the one they were throwing in and upgraded it to the hidden one.

If you check out
home.comcast.net/~joeynicotera/images/a104.jpg you will get a better idea of where the kitchen sits in the space. The wall behind the 'camera' is almost all windows.

I should add for those that view that image, the red and orange panels are actually color-changing LED fixtures that can be any color you want, on the fly.

thanks, joey for the link. i can see why the counter is that way now. actually, i wouldn't mind seeing more photos of the whole place, if you've got them!

I have a small dishwasher, very basic and new, does the job. My $925 apt came with it, and my $800 studio before this apt came with a new large one.
Low income is my group.

I gotta say regarding the dishwasher, if you have kids it really is a lifesaver. I know plenty of people didn't have them as kids, but it helps me feel less germ-infested in the long winter months and it's the only way i can manage to get a bottle really clean without boiling it.

My poor mother was saved by a dishwasher when I was growing up with my three younger brothers. They can be extremely useful for a family of six with 4 ravenous youngin's. This was not apartment living, however.

paul -- I don't think any of us would consider ourselves rich or even upper-middle class, even though it seems like around half of us live in Manhattan... Then again, the poverty line in Manhattan for a single mom with two kids is something like 75k...

It's nice and not my style at the same time, to echo someone else above. It's fine, and I would move into a place with a kitchen that looked like that, and unless I planned to stay a long time, wouldn't really change anything (though I would definitely paint the white walls, but that's just my taste).

I like this kitchen. I like the idea of the lighting in the cabinets but if it were me I would do a single whiter color similar to the type in MGR's bedroom. I would love to see more pictures as it progresses.

Not sure why anyone would think that nothing appetizing could be created or anything could be cooked there. I wonder why ppl comment with such negative and irrelevant posts.

BTW, apartment dweller here with twins and the DW is a huge benefit. So is the washer/dryer ;)

Thanks for the compliments jamiepup. The lighting can be changed on-the-fly, so any color, including white is possible. Also, the lighting is in 1' long elements, so each section can be the same color, or each one can be different. It's all controlled by the PC so your imagination is your only limit.

Oh yes, silly me. You did say the color could change. Very cool but do your LEDs all change to blue if your PC craps out?

BTW, the things I actually like - I have always like translucent glass panelled upper cabinets and as I have said in another post about the Mithell Lama coop, I much prefer the sleek white (or other colors) lacquered look of some European kitchens to wood. So your high gloss white fits the bill.

I love islands having had one in my last kitchen. It provided a great prep place, eating place and all round gathering place during parties.

I also like the openness which fits into the whole loft look and feel.

Joey, this is a great looking place. I wanted to look at the charleston lofts, but I waited too long and only the really expensive units were left, so I'm in chelsea now--not that I'm complaining. you sure have beautiful windows, though. I like the idea of led lighting in the kitchen cabinets; not sure about the shelves--does the light aim inward, illuminating the contents of the shelves?

re We Bostonians face a lot of the same issues New Yorkers face. One big issue is that not a single contractor knows anything about modern design. I've had to fight to get mouldlings removed, countertops cut, backsplashes torn off, non-paneled doors, etc.

per "a's" comment Why would you tear out mouldings if you live in a historic building (former factory)? Shouldn't the solution be, Just Live In A Modern Building?
This is what I hate about "modern design" -- the destruction of perfectly good architectural elements. Modern is not necessarily synonomous with "no detail." Ugh!

I think Joey is talking about all the "bad" elements of modern construction that are used defacto no matter what the situation, examples plastic/paneled doors, chintzy clamshell molding. etc.

I also would rather have less unnessary "details" cluttering up my space.

Oh, to my horror when I saw the Ikea butcher block counter that I chosen for my sisters kitchen, when I went to check up on the contractor they somehow created a backslash using some oak they went out and bought at the home depot, since the counter didnt come with one... contractors usually are not good at choosing details... I once heard an interior designer explaining to her client when brought up "an idea" thier contractor had, "have you ever seen your contractor's house?"

Joey, that's a beautiful kitchen. Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.

two questions (one of which has already been asked, I see!) Tell us more about those incabinet LED lights. I'm thinking about lights in my cabinets, and all information is appreciated.

The other is counterspace. For a really busy cook, there's not a lot of counterspace, but it seems to be that all you need to do is to create some kind of temporary bridge between the island & the side of the sink with the dishwasher (after all, you won't be using the dishwasher while you're making a big dinner).

If you had wide counters on all three sides, you've have lots of work area.

As it stands there are four equal areas, one on either side of the sink & stove, but if those get cluttered with equipment shortly to be used (food processor, blender, stockpot) & items whose time into pan has not yet come, you might run out of space. Especially if a toaster oven, coffee pot, dishrack or microwave starts taking up your counterspace on a permanent basis ....

While I agree that unnecessarily negative comments are not needed, anyone who puts up pictures should be prepared for feedback of all sorts. While there's no need to be hurtful, it's also not very useful for someone like Diana to summarily wave her hand and declare it's beautiful and to disregard all comments. This is a forum about taste, and it's only useful if people share (civilized and polite) comments about taste. If someone can't deal, he/she shouldn't post pics.

To answer questions about the LED lights-

They are from a company here in boston called Color Kinetics (www.colorkinetics.com). I chose the icolor Cove fixtures, which are 1' long strips. They will be mounted inside the cabinets on top front, pointing directly downward, more washing the glass with color than the objects inside. The shelves inside are going to be glass, so the light will bounce around and (I hope) provide a uniform glow. The controller that runs them (about the size of a remote control) actually stores the lights' programs, and will continue to control them even if the PC is shut off. Were the controller itself to fail, the lights all default to white at 50% brightness. You also have the option of having the lights operate without a controller, in which case they can be a solid color, or fade into any number of colors you want, via tiny switches on the strips.

Re- counterspace, while I realize that it's not a huge amount, I do have 36" on either side of the cooktop, and 27" and 21" inches on the right/left of the sink, respectively. The island counter is 93" x 38", and while I'd like more space, I think I have enough for the basics, not to mention the larger island giving others space to help out.

If you notice, the microwave/convection oven (it does both) is going to be mounted in the cabinet to the left of the stove, with a trim kit matching the oven door. The mixer is going in the lower cabinet to the left of the sink, and is on a special mechanism that lifts up and outward, then locks into place, bridging the space between the counterops. While I know there will ultimately be some things taking up counterspace permanently, I hope to only leave it to the cool stuff like the espresso machine.

Please keep the comments coming. After two years of waiting for this place to be done, my friends are all tired of hearing me talk about it ;)

jj--
Two words for you-- Constructive. Criticism.

Joey,

I think its a swell design. Quick question. I love the upper glass cabinets, if you don't mind divulging, where did you find these. I've been looking at some like it at Ikea, but yours look more high end.

Thanks,
Jen

Joey,

I think its a swell design. Quick question. I love the upper glass cabinets, if you don't mind divulging, where did you find these? I've been looking at some like it at Ikea, but yours look more high end. They may be out of my price range since I'm renovating a shell, but it is worth a try.

Thanks,
Jen

...but you look like you have so much counter space -- much more than any NYC apartment I've ever lived in...

Joey -- Which convection microwave did you choose? I need to get one for my new kitchen, but I really can't tell them apart...

Regarding this rule that we seem to be adhering to (and it has been mentioned in other threads) where anyone who posts pictures of their personal space is inviting every kind of no holds barred comment and criticism with complete disregard for social norms or even simple courtesy (a's comment at the top is a good example) - I don't think it is healthy or within the spirit of this website.

For example, if a woman were to say to her friend, boyfriend, husband, "Do I look fat in this?" what do you think the response should be? If we are adhering to this rule where such a question should invite the no holds barred approach then if the person looks fat then we should tell them so - and probably walk away for the person to deal with the feelings that she would get as a result.

Aren't we here to help and encourage with design decisions? Of course constructive criticism is good but when the comments are simply negative then I don't see any benefit to anyone but the poster.

I also find it interesting that ppl seem to have pretty strong opinions about other ppls' spaces but have nary a word to say about other design topics when the actual process of seeing something you like or dislike and commenting on it is the same regardless of whether it is a picture of someone's sapce or something from another website. For example, surely ppl have opinions on the Automata lights or the Charles Sofa from B and B Italia. These are pretty strong and quite possibly polarizing designs but the ppl with strong opinions on design are silent when it came to these threads.

Of course, having said all this, this thread is not really representative of what I am talking about and other threads have been worse but the one post above and the repeated assertion of what posting your pics should invite prompted me to get this off my chest.

For Jen(ny)-

The cabinets/glass doors were a combination of 2 elements. The cabinets themselves are standard white melamine cabinets (not like all the others, which are a high-gloss auto paint finish-still covered in plastic in these photos). I wasn't concerned about this because I wanted the inside to be white anyway for the colored lights, and I will be laminating a thin sheet of aluminum on the only visible side (the left). The doors themselves were from Richelieu (www.richelieu.com). I got both items from my cabinet distributor here in Boston, but I know that IKEA, Home Depot, Expo, and the like all have similar products. Richelieu is also a very common stock line for a lot of cabinet shops. The doors were $250 per pair, but the cabinets were only $200 each. If I were to have gone with completely aluminum cabinets, it would have been $2000. I saved almost $1000 by Frankensteining them. I too am renovating a shell, so I know where you're coming from.

To Mary-
All the appliances are GE, and the Microwave is model #JE1590SH. With the trim kit to mount it in the cabinet it was just over $500. While that seems like a lot for a microwave (ok it IS a lot for a microwave), it is also a convection oven, and can combine functions. For example, those place-and-bake cookies that normally take 15-18 minutes will only take 7-8, and still be browned nicely. Combine that with not having it take up counterspace, I think the extra $ is worth it.

I find that DW can really get the dishes and glasses clean in a way that normal handwashing doesn't. It could be that DW uses much hotter water, and the load stays much longer under water. It's also really good for cleaning pot lids.

First off, let me apologize if I was rude. I dashed off a comment while at work, and didn't self-censor. Or give constructive feedback. My bad. ;-)

It's the colors. I'm not really a fan of the white/grey/aluminum/frosted glass look. It looks cold and unappetizing to me. Based on the rendering and the pictures taken of the work thus far, it does not look like a comfortable space, either to cook in or to hang out to watch the cook. FOR ME! I would be tempted to add some color.

I did check out the rendering of the kitchen in context on your site, and am happy to concede that as part of the whole, it might look completely different.

I think work-in-progress shots are always tricky, since (I'm guessing) lighting will bring this space REALLY to life.

Hey zia, thanks for the clarification and thanks for taking it so well. Of course I meant you and not a (though a's post was presumptious), and you did get that.

Thank you for the comment Zia. Yes, I should note that in its current form, it's not very inviting. But as you saw in the final rendering there will be just as much wood as there is glass/aluminum (I've deviated from the 'dream' rendring on this page to add warmth), and the colored lighting throughout the space will really give it some life. I can't properly explain that ANY color is possible from this lighting, I'll just have to post pictures (or have everyone over). 16.7 million colors are possible, so even brown is an option. Also, as the rendering shows, there is an exposed pine post-and-beam ceiling, and maple flooring, which completely contrast the stark kitchen. My goal was to limit extraneous detail of the innards of the space, lest I take away from all the original structural detail that exsits.

Joey--
As a semi-random aside, and since I never pass up the oportunity to tout art--
Just reread that this (enviable) location of yours is in an old candy factory. There is an artist (oops, unprepared with the name!) who makes really amazing abstrations of candy wrappers, scanning them and then altering the image so it becomes an extension (in stripe form) of each color. Amazing results. Seems also like a great tie-in to you LED display, and the soul of the space.

and, ohdearGOD of COURSE a dishwasher.

This is what drove me to Brooklyn. The typpical Manhatten apartment kitchen. Clean, white and nothing special.

OK, who let Elvis back in the building

It looks like an efficient kitchen, something mine's not.
I was thinking of getting a microhood combo -- that is a microwave combination (bakes, toasts, microwaves)that also acts as an exhust. Does anyone have experience with one of these and how it functions/ any safety issues?

Wendy I did not know such a thing existed but I did do some research on the first couple of bake/toast/microwaves that came out (non hood - that is the part that is news to me) which were from Samsung and Sharp. Samsung was no good for baking because its upper heating elements had to be folded down into the cavity which left only enough room for a small baking tray where a maybe 4 cookies could be baked. You basically lost the top half of the capacity.

Sharp was better for baking I think but useless for toasting. It would take about 10 minutes to toast bread.

I would appreciate a link or brand name to the one you are thinking of.

Also go to epinions.com

I will never again live without a dishwasher or washer/dryer if I can help it. And you don't have to prewash dishes before putting them in.

I'd love to see what the lighting is like in this kitchen - please post more pix when finished.

i'd have two dishwashers if i could - a blessing for anyone who entertains and for small spaces so you can get the unsightly out of the way - also many of the dishwashers are energy efficient and have light wash cycles and other interesting buttons to push.

my gas stove has convection in it my microwave is some sort of crazy device that thing is out of control. - scared to know how it does what it does.

lighting - you can also get filters for the low voltage mg12's or whatever they are called - the halogen looking lights for the lowvoltage systems - you can change the color for like 12 dollars. you can also get other covers and such to control how bright the little bulbs are

as for the kitchen - i need to see it in perspective to the space. the white is a little stark for me but the island is perfect. i take it you have a down draft vent? i also like the way the counter top on the back wall wraps around just a little bit - its a nice transition and inviting

i just had people over for the first time in my 850 sf loft and they all huddled around my little island - i think i need a bigger one. however it was really cute.

It's very funny what different relationships we each have to the idea of a dishwasher. I kind of like washing dishes by hand, but I know people who consider the lack of a dishwasher to be unbearable squalor.

But, regarding this particular gorgeous kitchen... someone mentioned how much of a difference the lighting will make. I think the place will create a different kind of friendly vibe than many, but it's going to be like a chic, fun bar where it's more about food than the drink. It's not going to have a grandmother-y old-fashioned kind of warmth.

The layout is going to help with that open, fun feeling, but the clean lines will keep it chic. I hope we get to see the whole thing completely done. And I absolutely know what Joey means about having another place to discuss these things besides friends who have heard almost too much -- I get excited about every single morsel of success when I'm in the midst of it all.