apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

Kelli -- have you done comps other than the apt in your building? According to the Corcoran website (and Corc's known for getting sellers high prices), a 2nd-floor neighbor is for sale right now, asking $630k.

138 Broadway Avenue - Apt: 2B
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=846572

$600-700k in B-burg, FtGreene, Dumbo
http://www.corcoran.com/property/search.aspx?Region=NYC&RentSale=SU

You guys have to understand how markets work. The reason Kelli is asking so much is that it's based on what other properties in the neighborhood are going for, what people have already paid for similar units. These aren't random virtual numbers. People really, really, really want to live in New York, and there are a lot of rich people out there, which is why Gucci is still in business. Besides, incomes are sharply higher in New York - in my field I could make at least 20% more there.

Laboring under a ridiculously-high-for-Miami-mortgagely yours,
- Tom

Jeremy - $700K can buy you a WHOLE HOUSE with a YARD in most neighborhoods in Chicago, and $400K will buy you a 1br condo on the 23rd floor in River North (with a w/d in unit, granite countertops, and an unobstructed northern view).

so... you were saying?

Wende, last year I commentde on Craigslist about the diffs in SF and NYC rental/purchase markets:
http://forums.newyork.craigslist.org/?ID=27149742

Main body of text in case link does not work:
One thing I have noticed that seems to be a key difference is the kind of places you can rent in SF vs NYC for similar money. $1800 per month should get you a good 3BR house in SF (which will cost close to $1MM to buy) whereas the same amount will get you a doorman 400/500 sqft studio in Manhattan (below 100th st) or a small non doorman 1BR (which will cost somewhere between $200K - $400K to buy depending on factors such as coop vs condo, studio vs 1BR etc). 3BR house/apt in Manhattan (below 100th st) could run you close to $8000 per month to rent.

So the expectations of what you should be able to buy based on what you can afford to rent in SF are orders of magnitude higher than in Manhattan. In SF you cannot possibly afford to buy the place you rent. In NYC it is much more possible. I guess the feeling is that if you can rent a 3BR house in SF then why can't you buy the same? Whereas in Manhattan if you rent a studio you could realistically afford to buy it.

This disparity in terms of expectations is what I believe leads to a lot of SF renters thinking they got the shit end of the stick.

BTW, that is also why the P/E ratio theory that SFers like to tout does not work here. Rents are insanely high compared to what you get so the "P/E" ratio is not as high.

just to make a quick point, though i know no disparaging comments were made at me specifically.

my issue is not 'those crazy new york rents' from the outsider's perspective.

my issue is the whole idea of the neighborhood bubble. while it's trendy right now, williamsburg is not all that hospitable. and the idea that people are paying twice the brooklyn going rate to live there is MAD, in my opinion. if you lived 2 subway stops away, you'd have a much nicer neighborhood for half the price. but it's not WILLIAMSBURG.

kind of reminds me of the DUMBO thing a couple years ago, TriBeCa before that (20 years later that place is still unhospitable wilderness), etc. etc. how ridiculous.

also, from a normal person's standpoint (even a normal new yorker), real estate prices here are a bit insane. the idea that something like 90% of all new yorkers will NEVER be able to have the stability of owning their own home is crazy. there's a New Yorker article this week about this upper west side building, the Apthorp and what happened to the people who lived there when the UWS became hot in the 90's. granted the people in that article were upper middle class and could handle the increases, but still. the idea that you might have to move because your landlord 'can' charge more is so weird.

capitalism in america? absurd!

meanwhile, I suppose more than 10% of nyers CAN afford it. avg apt price in Manhattan is over 1mm, so most people who own could afford this place. And I think that's more than 10%.

To each their own. Someone will buy Kelli's place and love it and the location.

It is true that the website doesn't give every single detail about the apt. But no online listing does. The point with an on-line listing is to give enough information to interest someone to call. And Kelli's website certainly does just that.

I have to say again that I am so incredibly impressed with how beautiful the website is (ok, I know we are supposed to be talking about the property, but...). I love the arrows and the home button, the font, the pictures. When I opened the website for the first time, I thought whatever this person does for a living, if I needed someone to do that, I would hire them! (If I could afford it).

Andree-
I wouldn't want to live by bars either.

But do you really consider golf courses nature? They are incredibly harmful to the environment. I consider them anti-nature.

What puzzles me about urban RE prices is that it now costs about twice as much to buy a property as to pay market rent (not average rent-control rent) for the same property. Ordinarily, once you take into account the tax advantages, buying is about par with renting. Not so these days!

It's still a beautiful apartment, and if buyers don't want to pay $700k, they'll bid lower.

"Interesting point from Jamie Pup that 70% of New Yorkers rent. If that's the case, then who owns the land? Probably wealthy people who live in other countries that have the coin to throw. In any case, New York is a very unbalanaced situation, because people who own are more likely to care about their house and neighbourhood, so if only 30% own, that means the other 70% don't give a sh-- (or are much less likely to) about the neighborhood and city they live in. Which kind of explains why New York is the way it is."

That is not only offensive, but also quite rude! Unbalanced? Not quite! I have lived in NYC my whole life, and I've rented for the last 16 years. I live in a beautiful neighborhood, which is well cared for by both renters and owners alike! We have a multitude of tenant associations, block associations and neighborhood groups.

And my landord? He lives about ten blocks away. Also in a building owned by a NYC resident. These people from other countries with coin? Maybe they own the big office buildings, like Citicorp Center, but not the majority of residential buildings.

Don't be a hater. New Yorkers are just cooler, smarter and wealthier than most of the country. We can't help it, that's just the way we roll!

Simply gorgeous. I'm in lust with the appliances. Good luck on the sale!

Prices in NYC are just what they are. I love NYC, but I'll never live there because to get what I've got in Chicago, I'd need to have millions to spend (NYC apartments seem to be allergic to central air and in-unit laundry!). It's my choice to prefer affordable central air to NYC, but I can certainly understand the appeal of living (and paying to live) there. Fortunately, I can fly in and out of NYC from Chicago in a single day to catch lunch, a play, and dinner... ;)

...in cities with rent control, it's logical that renters should care deeply about our neighborhoods. Once we settle on an apartment, unless market rents drop dramatically, we will not be moving unless we move away or buy.

I know any number of renters who have lived in their units longer than typical buyers live in their homes.

i am mesmerized by the furnishings, particularly the dining and bar chairs

Goodness.

Ok, this certainly is a nice pad, at least in a ready-made sense but the asking price is quite astounding. I guess being a Chicagoan I should not be so shocked but 700k will buy you a lot with a house on it in most of the city letalone a massive condo.

Wow.

Anyhow, I originally wanted to comment on the beauty of that Murphy bed- really well done and quite elegant.

$700,000 to live on the approach to the Williamsburg Bridge, with all the traffic and elevated trains right outside? No thank you.

Absolutely beautiful staging... the photos are breathtaking.

I'd love to see more actual photos on this site. The weird oblique angles and whited out effects are kind of tiring. :) Then again, I'm just saying that because I want to steal ideas, not because I am actually in the market..

And I thought Williamsburg was supposed to be cheaper than Manhattan?

Uneducatedly Miamily yours,
- Tom

This pad is unique and beautifully designed. Next to the Gretsh Building, across from the great restaurant Dinner, down the street for the legendary Peter Luger steak house and right by the subway or a short cab ride from the lower east side. All this, a cool Murphy bed, great kitchen and bath plus a view of the Empire State Building. In this market, a fair asking price. Beautiful! (cool web site too)

That is a high $ psf number for south williamsburg. You are closer to the JMZ line rather than the more desirable (in terms of what the market says) L line and I do get that the seller is saying that this is desirable because you are away from the hipster clones but property closer to hipster ground zero does go for more.

However, at this price point and with these fixtures the seller has to be aiming for a more targetted buyer that is willing to pay more than the average $ psf price to get the exact look that they want without needing to change anything. So the buyer pool will be smaller but they might just get that very person they need.

BTW, I missed some FSBOs and went back to the 399K thompson st one where some ppl from outside of nyc were questioning the prices. Maybe the first commenter to each fsbo thread can simply say that nyc apts are more expensive to save ppl others the typing time ;p

I think its hilarious that the seller disses the new development in B-Burg as a "sea of white boxes" yet this apartment is..... all white. The furniture is nice, but I'm rather underwhelmed by the apt. itself.

At $811/sq foot, this apartment is seriously overpriced, IMHO. Good luck to the seller for trying, though!

I am constantly amazed at the obscene prices of miniscule apartments in NYC (and plenty of other mega cities). It amazes me that people ask such inflated prices and it amazes me even more that someone will actually pay those prices (and willingly go into hock up to his eyeballs by so doing). Why do you people live in such insane (and cramped) places?!?

OK, not to be totally obnoxious but I just can't stand the comments from people outside of New York about how half the amount for a NY apartment would buy a 10 bedroom estate plus maid service for a year. This is the market here, get used to it, and stop gloating. People live in New York for a reason, and the reason is not affordable housing. If we wanted to live in blah blah blah we would. But we don't. We want to live here. And it costs. But that's the choice we have made.

i'm obsessed and insanely jealous.

Anybody know where I might be able to buy a couch like the one pictured?

Thank you, clutterfreemiss.

THANKS for everyone's time to compliment and constructively criticize, points well taken. My first website, first blogging, kinda fun!

If I may, I would like to justify the price...

On the 2nd floor of my building, with no view , no upgrades, an 879 sf apartment sold for $650,000. The appliances that come with lots of these apartments are very cheap and many many have broken already in my building.

My apartment is on a higher floor ( 4th ), upgrades are to the top of the line on everything ( total including labor, design, and fixtures was $46,000), an amazing view ( the trains can be quite charming and cute, you have to see from this level ) of the Empire State building and Manhattan, similar sf ( mine is 861) so I thought $699,000 seemed right

The sea of white boxes, I should not have made my point that way. It refers to lack of details found in all of the other condos I have seen. The wood ceiling and the cast iron columns in my apartment really add life to the white box ( the wood ceiling is what sold me so different and warm ). I will come up with a positive spin on that asset. Thanks for your comment.

Yes, I would like more space ( who wouldn't ). However, cramped is not how my apartment feels, the space is wide open and functions super for having lots of people over. I love living in New York. I am from Charlotte, a beautiful, manicured, fast growing city. It lacks the art and design I love, level and variety of nightlife, and amazing food choices New york has to offer, as well as buzz of the city that all make me happy.

Best to all,

Kelli

perfectly stated clutterfreemiss, i couldn't agree more. thank you. : )

i absolutely love that white lamp(?)/sculpture hanging from the ceiling. does anyone know what it is? it's lovely.

Hi Shari,

The sofa is Martin Visser br02.7, designed in the late 50's, it opens to a sleeper as well! I got it after many months of patience on ebay but Troy in New York sells them still made by the original manufacturer, Spectrum. Here is a mail order link as well http://themagazine.info/products/-/1110.html

Am I missing something? For $700K+ I want the whole apartment, bedroom included!!!!

Good luck getting that price in Williamsburg for a "studio" apartment. Think you may have over-designed for what you will get.

Pictures don't represent a real estate ad. It's more Metropolitan Home. Beautiful, but not practical for sales purposes.

Kelli,

Your website design and photography are breathtaking. Bravo.

Are you a photographer? Please tell us what you do for a living...

Thanks for the nice comments christina,

The lamp ( yes it is a lamp ) is the norm 03, designed by Britt Kornum for Normann demark, 1969. It comes flat and you put it together and makes an amazing pattern on the wall. It was inexpensive ( compared to my apartment ha! ha! ha! ) at $98.00. Here is a like or Conrans, New york, http://www.nova68.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NORM03&Category_Code=14

kelli

Thanks for your kind words Lori2,

I am a designer ( furniture and high end hotel interiors ) working for a small firm in NYC. The photographs are my best and first attempt at photography in an effort to make a website that made me feel happy about it looked. It was a pretty fun to explore a new medium.

I'm in love! Kelli, do you mind saying where you got the bedding? I love how you're using orange throughout.

oh god. the williamsburg real estate market is so ridiculous.

a studio apartment outside manhattan going for upwards of half a million dollars. crazy. crazy i tell you.

the pretty fixtures and high end appliances are real nice, but COME ON. and kelli, this is not against you but against the market in general (btw the place is beautiful, as are your photographs).

and yes, i am a new yorker. i live like 2 miles away in fort greene in a 2 bedroom in a co-op building and units like mine (1000 or so sf, 2 actual bedrooms in addition to a living room and decently sized kitchen, elevator building, etc. etc.) go for half that. and fort greene has beautiful architecture, parks, supermarkets (which i've noticed are rare in wburg), subways that actually go somewhere, good schools, nice people of all ages some of whom don't tuck their pants into their boots, trees, and other features IN ADDITION TO good bars and restaurants and scenesters and all that.

so, yeah, i really don't get why anyone would pay that much to live in Williamsburg, which is nice enough but other than the trendiness doesn't have all that much going for it, in my opinion. maybe that's why this person is selling?

It's beautiful--really beautiful. But my friend just bought a studio in Tribeca that is also beautiful--though not this beautiful--for $450k. Granted, it's much smaller, but it works out to almost exactly the same price per square foot. That's a lot for Williamsburg.

Can't you live in Manhattan for $700K?

Holly

Pictures are lovely, but as someone mentioned, they look like what you'd see in a decorating magazine, not a sale ad. You should definitely show pics of the points mentioned in the ads (e.g. cast iron columns).

It's a lovely apartment, and I'd have thought big enough to be one bedroom. Before commenting, it's worth checking Kelli's website. The link didn't work - type in the URL instead. The place has both a people & goods lift. I'd be first in line just for that!!

Kelli provides a new floorplan showing a bedroom carved out of the space. IMHO when selling property you should put yourself in the BUYER'S position. In addition to a bedrooom, the buyer may want to work from home - I don't think I saw a home office. Does the building have broadband? A luxury block here was built without cable and the owners had to run it around themselves.

It may be worth it for Kelli to create a view of the room (Photoshop) looking back toward the bed with blinds over low cabinets, or sliding shoji or frosted concertina doors in place open & closed. (Click your way through the Small Apts contest for examples) With the doors open, you can watch tv in bed; closed you can run a home office with your bed out of sight.

This gives a less imaginative buyer an idea of what it would look like to enclose the space and give guests on the murphy bed some privacy. She may go one step further and get quotes on what the various schemes would cost. It is possible a buyer will ask for a discount based on one of these schemes.

In addition, the saying here is 'No-one pays for a renovation' which is why builders use such cheap crap - for 'show not blow' as people used to say about lace-edged hankies. You do Kelli's kind of renovation to live with it & enjoy for 5 to 10 years, and sell to someone who wants to rip it all out and make the place theirs.

I would like to see pics on the website of the building foyer, laundry room, roof area (and what are the rules re parties?); the lettering on the timber ceiling isn't legible, and more importantly ****neither are the Terms.******

What is in the Utility room? I always thought this was a US euphemism for 'laundry' - like 'powder room' for bathroom. If it's being used as a walk-in closet, say so.

Ok, I'm going re-iterate the point that has already been made, partly because it annoys the New Yorkers but also because it's the truth. Paying over $800/sq foot is sheer madness. Here in Toronto, anything about $350/sq foot is over the top so $800/sq foot is just complete insanity. And at $700K, how does one afford a place like that? Take out an interest only variable rate mortgage at 50 years?

kelli, thank you! i have been looking for a lamp like that for over my bed and this one is priced right and looks amazing.

best of luck with the sale of your apartment.

Patrick -

To your point of how do people buy a single use space for 700k: I live in Manhattan, went to college, have a decent job, consider myself relatively smart - but for the life of me I can't get my arms around the idea either. I wouldn't do it even if I could afford it-- regardless of location -- billie-burg, Park Slope, Manhattan or what have you...

I'm just sayin...

I'm about to hijack this thread a bit...

Recently while sitting in a waiting room I picked up a Chicago Magazine. This particular issue set out to compare the Windy City with other metropolis' in the US. Among many facinating facts I found this one to be rather interesting:

Salary: An individual living in Chicago who makes $45K a year and lives very well would need to make between 80-90K in New York to sustain the same quality of life.

If I had 700K I would be living on Lake Shore Drive in a 2500sf penthouse overlooking the lake and the Loop. Oh and my car would be parked in my owned garaged spot.

I really would love to get an idea of who buys the above space.

Gosh darn, isn't nyc such a weird and wacky place?

They have that ferris wheel inside of a store in times square. Yup in Times Square people!! The center of all culture and fine cuisine (you do know about new yorkers' best kept secret, Sbarro, don't you?), and forget $800 psf in Williamsburg when there's 1600 Broadway, that luxury high rise condo going up smack dab in the middle of times square that all the out of towners are buying into for $1500 psf. Or to venture outside of the comfort zone how about $2000 psf you could be paying for an 800sqft studio at 165 Charles?

How do these new yorkers do it? Well, the truth is, they don't. Not in general anyway. 70% of new yorkers rent (but let's not get into what you can rent for peanuts where you live k?) whereas 70% of the rest of the country own. But the ones that can afford the million $ apts either do make serious coin, bought before the feeding frenzy of the last 6 or so years or both.

Now can you believe that most newyorkers walk to the corner store to buy their milk?

it's so amusing to see folks get their knickers all twisted in their hyper judgemental mind about prices. just look at the pretty photos and chill out. whatever, just as long as ya'll don't become those knee jerking yuppies over at Brownstoner who spend their office time writing dissertation on minute price differentials in Bklyn nabes.

did I mention the pretty photos? if the place doesn' sell, guess what? it'll get reduced and show up on Curbed Price Chopper. life goes on.

love the orange!

Please.....Willy B? Played out waste of time. Williamsburg was cool 10 years ago when artists and REAL hipsters lived there. Now it's just wannabes and frat boys. If you are going to spend 700k why not invest in a neighbourhood that matters. Waste of time, money and effort.

Aaarrrrggghhhh! Too much Starbucks today, people? Or maybe I haven't had enuf yet. Kerri, your place is so beautifully realized; the building itself is a charmer; and as a newbie photographer and Website maker, you rock. I hope you get your asking price, or something close enough to it to make you happy. I hope you'll keep us posted as to how the sale goes, too.

Deb of Oz makes a number of useful points about how to present the place on your Website. I feel like I really want to see more, have more context for the space--like neighborhood, building amenities, etc.

I'm selling a 1840s Federal style inn I lived in for eight years up in a town on the Hudson, and if I wanted to play the "if this building were in, say, Westchester instead of Orange county, then I'd get millions instead of hundreds of thousands" game, I'd drive myself mad.

Good luck, Kelli, and hey, please come right here and lend your gifted eye to my new place, which could use a talent like yours!

Au

number4, there's a reason why people mention the prices here, because ultimately, at the end of the day, you have to MAKE the money in order to pay for it. Now maybe you have rich parents or a trust fund or you're a Bush crony, but for the rest of us, we look at the New York situation and just scratch our heads.

Interesting point from Jamie Pup that 70% of New Yorkers rent. If that's the case, then who owns the land? Probably wealthy people who live in other countries that have the coin to throw. In any case, New York is a very unbalanaced situation, because people who own are more likely to care about their house and neighbourhood, so if only 30% own, that means the other 70% don't give a sh-- (or are much less likely to) about the neighborhood and city they live in. Which kind of explains why New York is the way it is.

Julian you are kidding right? $700k in chicago isn't going to get you anywhere near 2500 sf and definitely not on the lakeshore. In addition you are going to be living on one of the mid floors, not in the penthouse. Chicago may not be new york in terms of house prices, but it definitely isn't Topeka either.

BTW great place and interesting photos, but hard to tell the details with the artsy effects.

Why is everyone so mean? This apartment will probably get the asking price. The market will bear it, and that's just the way it is, if you don't like it don't buy the apartment!! My only comment is that I think I would drive myself crazy worrying about keeping the grout between all those tiles on the tub clean, but that's my problem, not Kelly's. Kelly, please let us know when you sell.

Why do people not from New York try to force their small town/suburban perspective on NYC (or other large cities)? So you can't imagine paying so much for a place, well I can't imagine living anywhere that you have to drive to every place you want to go. Lots of people will gladly trade affordable housing for big city living. Just because you don't understand it don't ridicule it. Yeah I am jealous that my friend just bought a 4 bedroom house plus study for 2/3 the price of my 2 bedroom condo, but I wouldn't trade.

And to patrick talking about how people that rent don't care about the neighborhood, go read this thread to see how much people that rent in Chicago care about their neighborhoods. I think in very large cities it is a completely different world where your normal stereptypes and perceptions have to be thrown out the window: http://www.gapersblock.com/fuel/archives/home_hoods/

Right on Jamie Pup. If people want to laugh about prices, there's a nice weekly feature for you in the NYT House and Home section comparing NYC sales prices with what you could get elsewhere - always a ridiculous comparison. I live in DC, which also has crazy prices, but which can't hold a candle to NY's prices. Please, give it a rest and enjoy where you are since you made the choice to be there. And take a look at this beautiful scenery.

Also, with 861 sq, this could probably easily be turned into a 1 bedroom. It's more small loft-like than studio-like.

Tom, this may be interesting reading for you on why relying on past comps won't work in today's market:
http://www.urbandigs.com/2006/05/recognizing_a_s.html#comments

This broker is more honest than other brokers who claim that there is no softening of the nyc purchase market.

Here is another honest broker with a similar POV:
http://www.truegotham.com/archives/a-brokers-job-113-when-a-broker-falls-in-love-with-a-penthouse.html

er, Opononax...20 years later Tribecca may be an "unhospitable jungle" to you...but if you had bought a building in SOHO 20 years ago you would, like, be worth about $50 million by now. Maybe more. So your grand "remember Tribecca?" point makes no f*cking sense.

And since the rest of you are so polite, let me be the one to say it: if we want to live next to three Arby's, six GAPs, nine 7-11s, two large-scale revivalist churches and a bunch of fat white republicans we'd all move somewhere else.

And finally, opoponax, while I have never really agreed with a lot of your posts I did think you were right with your first one in this thread. However, with your second I think you are wrong with your view on Tribeca.

My wife and I are raising kids there and I am constantly amazed at how much of a real neighbourhood feel there is with many ppl knowing each other and greeting each other on the street, going to each others homes etc. Granted, the common link is our children so ppl without children may not see this but we have friends who move away to the UWS for example and they miss the community that we have here.

You are of course, entitled to your opinion but I'm just sayin' that mine, based on experience of living there, differs from yours quite markedly.

Jamie Pup -- Though I think you may have been optimistic about typical rents in SF itself, your central point is really interesting. The "mortgage bubble" effect covers virtually all of California, but I'm willing to believe that NYC could have a dramatically different economy, as so much about the housing stock and the way it's managed are unique to the area.

jamie pup, i agree with most of your points. except that you can easily find a 3BD house in SF for $1800. you'd have to live pretty far out of the main city center to find that, maybe in the cold/foggy outer sunset or similar area, which have a much more suburban feel and add quite a bit of a commute to one's day.

i have a small 2BD/2BA apartment that is modern (and by "modern" i mean about 20 years old) and it costs $2400/month, which is considered to be on the low end of what the landlord could be getting for it. but it's in a good neighborhood, right off the bus line that takes me downtown. which is kind of the same point that you guys are making about outsiders decrying the high cost of RE in NY--it's all relative. it's about location and what you are willing to pay more to have (access to cultural activities, great restaurants, the "city" feeling). i suppose i could probably find a 3BD somewhere that would technically have an SF address for $1800, but i wouldn't be having the city experience that you are associating with san francisco.

Patrick, renters in NYC do care about where they live--probably because the majority of people rent, and that turns the renting situation on its ear.

There's no need to be nasty by saying stuff like the "...explains the way it is." NYC may not be for you--it's certainly not for everyone--but right now, it's doing quite well. Crime is low and the city is booming. Yes, real estate is crazy, but it's crazy in London and Hong Kong and many other cities, and there will always be people who live there regardless.

Patrick-

I, like 70% of the rest of NYC, rent. And I can tell you that I care more about my neighborhood and about this entire city in general than any other place I've ever lived before - where could be owning a giant house on a couple of acres now for what I am renting for today...

many people in NY just absolutely love it here- maybe THAT's why it is the way it is...

-k

And btw, Kelli, hope you get what you are asking. Gorgeous place, and I didn't mean to cast aspersions--you just need a buyer who wants to move in and doesn't want to touch a thing.

BTW, love the wood backsplash. Any info on that would be appreciated, since I've never seen that before.

People have made very good points re: NYC prices. To clarify my point (re: overpriced) above, I think if Kelli wants to get her sale price she will have to edit her website. She needs more pertinent sales information (floorplan, building rules, maintenance fees, location of laundry, etc.) As stated above, the pics and site look like a shelter magazine, and do not help potential buyers learn about the apartment itself.

I follow NYC and the surrounding real estate pretty closely, and although I wish Kelli the best, I still think the price is high. Assuming 20% down (appx $140k), the mortgage is about $560k. A bank would want the buyers to have an income of about $190k annually. Although B-burg is a "hot" neighborhood, I'm not sure that there is a large population of people with that kind of income would want to live in B-burg, nor in a studio, long-term. (Its a small space for a couple, or if you have kids.) Since the real estate market is cooling somewhat (check the Otteau report or other similar RE analyses), Kelli may benefit by lowering her price somewhat if she wants a quick sale.

My comments are meant to help, not disparage. Good luck Kelli!

Jeremy, LOVE that link you posted. I've been reading the Pros and Cons of Chicago City Neighborhoods. I suppose a lot can be carried over to many large cities. And small towns. Don't have to live in a big city to have your shin mangled via a neighbor's kid's Big Wheel on the sidewalk. Or to get wet via someone's hose, super soaker, water balloons.

One thing that cracks me up, is that it's apparently a "pro" to be near many bars. I guess folks do a lot of drinking.

People don't like loud stereos anywhere, unless they're the person with the loud stereo. That goes for just about any noise. Kids are being kids, not making noise. Teenage girls scream shrilly everywhere.

People complain about parking, or lack of parking, or parking spot hogs. Trees and parks are a good thing.

I just don't understand the desire to live close to several bars and pay a ridiculous amount in order to live close to several bars, when you could buy a cabinet full of liquor and drink yourself to a stupor while having good parking and your own yard elsewhere.

Uh, I'm in San Francisco, by zip code only. I live as far away from city center as is humanly possible and look out on a golf course. I live between two golf courses and a lake. I gotta have nature around me. Seeing all the buildings isn't "natural" to me. I don't want to see buildings.

Doesn't anyone else feel that way? Crave nature? I'd rather be out with the birds and animals and beasts of the forest than beasts of the city. When was the last time you folks rubbed and scratched your buddy Lucky, who is also a skunk?

I'll take a skunk over a gun-toting youth any day of the year.

Ah, I love NY. What is there to discuss?

Did anyone notice the maintenance on Kelli's place? $276! That's super low. She's going to get her asking price because people want to live in NYC.

I don't get this whole conversation of how much cheaper it is to live elsewhere. We don't live here because it's we can get a great bang for the buck! It's expensive to live here and pretty inconvenient when running day to day errands; it's loud and in some areas pretty dirty but it's still the city most people dream of living in. It reminds me of the tourist who orders a steak at a great restaurant in Manhattan and then complains that he could get the same steak in Montana (for example) for much less. The waiter responds "yeah, but when you're finished eating the steak you're still in Montana!"

One more thing - Patrick, what do you mean by your statement "Which kind of explains why New York is the way it is." ? Really. How much do you, living in Toronto, know about life in NYC? Just curious how you feel confident in making that statement.

Addressing Julian's tangent:

Jen, Julian, and others trying to demonstrate how affordable Chicago is -- give up! Like Jeremy said, Chicago ain't the rest of the Midwest and a comparable unit here (with good views and top of the line finishes) actually could come surprisingly close to $700K:

179 E Lake Shore Drive (MLS #06140866): 1 bed, 1 bath, 1100 square feet, southern view, recently remodeled, co-op = $655K (assessments: $2275!)

10 E Ontario #4107 (MLS #06099661): 1 bed, 1 bath, 850 sf (1000 sf including the balcony), newly built, northern view, top of the line finishes, condo = $602K (assessments: $488). Parking extra.

Of course, the key here is that I have no idea how near north neighborhoods compare to W-burg. My point is that Chicago isn't the land of sanity, by any stretch of the imagination. Prices are what the market will bear and those condos at Ontario Place seem to be selling -- according to American Invesco, of the 12 units identical to the one I mention above, six are sold, three are under contract and that $602K buys you one of the lowest level units of those 12. If there's a market in Chicago for $600K+, 850 sf condos, there's surely there's one for a NYC condo with similar stats at $700K.

Let's not even get into how reasonable NYC seems if you start looking at Tokyo, Seoul or London markets!

Off the tangent. On topic:

Kelli, I checked out the website -- just lovely, but the inconsistent positioning of the "next" arrow (sometimes it's in the lower right, sometimes it's in the lower left) may lead to folks missing some of the great things about this place. Love your ceilings!

When I lived in SF in 2000 I rented a tiny studio off Silver Ave. (talk about nowhere!) and paid $1650/mo. Rents must have dropped dramatically if you can now get a 3 bedrm. for $1800/mo. in basically the same area.

Just out of curiousity I sometimes look at "apts. for rent" on NY Craigslist and can't figure out how people can afford to live here/how people can afford to move here. The outer boroughs (not Manhattan) command super high rents for small, unattractive apts.where 3-4 are squeezed into these tiny places. And yet, people flock here and pony up just for the opportunity to live here. So yeah, rents are high, RE is high. And another 100 people just got off the plane!

thanks Wende and Julie for your comments. I hear you both on my optimistic rent for SF but bear in mind that during that time there were a ton of SF posters on CL claiming that they were renting 3BR apts in SF for $1800 (when they were going for a million) to prove how insane the house prices were. I was responding at that time within that context.

Julie I hope you got my central point as Wende did even if my numbers were off. BTW, how much would your 2br/2ba place be selling for right now? how big is it? and how long is the bus ride to downtown?

Hey anne, the other well documented fact about the SF rental market, and one touted by the SF bubbleheads, was that rents went into freefall after 2000 which led to the huge disparity between in the P/E ratio (monthly rent vs monthly PITI on a purchased home) that I was addressing in my original CL post.

"And since the rest of you are so polite, let me be the one to say it: if we want to live next to three Arby's, six GAPs, nine 7-11s, two large-scale revivalist churches and a bunch of fat white republicans we'd all move somewhere else."

Jonathan, you are my HERO. Finally, I can exhale. Thanks for phrasing it exactly right.

Rents in SF seem to have bottomed out around mid-2003, which is when we moved to the city from East Bay. It's still possible to pay $1800 for a one-bedroom apt downtown, though. I think an acquaintance might be paying that for a 3BR flat out in the foggy part of the Outer Richmond, but I could be remembering her square footage and not her rent (which would then be higher).

Leaving out parking costs, we pay a little over $1300 for a large 1-BR in the theater district. Buying a slightly larger but not as pretty unit a block away would cost us about $500,000 plus $540 a month in HOAs plus property taxes at a bit over 1% of purchase price, plus we'd still be paying for parking separately. That $500k is about the lowest that non-subsidized 1-BRs go in the city, too, and would get no kitchen luxuries, plus a 1930s bath and 1930s plumbing.

Virginia -

Stay in Chicago if you've got that to say about NYC. You just WISHED you lived here, don't you?

Hate to break it to you, Jonathan, but you can have the pure joy of living in a $2400 studio apartment here in NYC and still live next to a GAP, a 7-11s, and a bunch of fat white republicans.

I think Manhattan living is actually often overrated. And not just because of the rents.

jamie pup--yep, got your original point, and i think you're right. i am surprised actually that the ratio is so different in NYC--i have never researched that before, so i learned something today, too. i was just pointing out that our ratio here in SF may not be quite as high as all that, because the rental number you quoted was pretty dramatically low (again, though, dependent on the neighborhood you are talking about). just for some perspective, some friends of mine live in a comparable neighborhood to mine, and they have a 3 BD (apartment, not house). it's a third floor walk-up, has only 1.5 bathrooms, and is large with an upgraded kitchen but definitely older overall--it costs somewhere around $3200/month.

this is info from zillow, so take with a large grain of salt, but a condo in my bldg. sold for $625ish about 5 months ago. it was a smaller 2BD/2BA unit on a lower floor (minus the view and outdoor deck that i have), but was highly upgraded. mine has the 1987 kitchen it was built with, and no upgrades whatsoever. so i wouldn't think mine would cost more than $675, but who knows.

and you are absolutely right about the post-2000 easing of the rental market here. there was so little rental inventory around that time that some insane price gouging was going on--that has all gone away now.

Jonathan - I also hate to break it to you, but have you heard about the Gaps, the Starbucks, the McDonalds, etc., that are rumored to be coming to Williamsburg. The charming hamlet, affectionately referred to as BillieBurg by many, is in the process of undergoing the most enormous development changes than any other part of Brooklyn. Williamsburg, like so much of NYC, has become increasingly for people who can buy studio apts for $700K and not blink an eye. And I just bet there are all kinds of Republicans there too.

Ah ptoo, you revealed our dirty little secret.
But that's a whole 'nother topic and my lunch break is ending now so that's all I've got to say about that.

OMG, that coffee table is exactly what I was looking for. round edge, contemporary, long and narrow. OMG... who does make that furtnture? Any idea? If not, do you know some other company who made similar one? OMG.. I WANT THAT COFFEE TABLE!!!!!!

One thing that I think needs to be factored into the NYC/SF discussion is the downpayment factor. In NYC, a *minimum* downpayment on a coop is 20%. You can buy a condo with 10%, but condos are significantly more expensive. I know many people who make quite decent to good salaries, and it takes them many years to save the downpayment.

Does SF present similar obstacles? I don't know of any other city that does on the East Coast. I think that makes it far more difficult to swing an apartment than the mortgage does.

I would never live in Williamsburg, as I am neither hip nor hassidic. But barbara, New York is both wildly wealthy and wildly liberal. Your assumption that wealth equates de facto political conservativism is simply wrong and betrays an ignorance of New York politics.

Jonathan - I wasn't at all suggesting that wealth equates conservatism. I was simply suggesting that it takes all kinds of people to populate a New York neighborhood. I was stating that New York is also full of those things like the GAPs, McDonalds, etc. I was born in New York. I am well aware of the cultural, social, economic diversity in this city.

Kathy -
http://funkysofa.com/eastelta.html

Even though I was surprised by the prices of New York real estate, I sympathize with the annoyance that New York natives feel when people outside New York keep on gasping in astonishment at the prices and continually make cost comparisons to other areas of the country.

Real estate in Toronto, though not as expensive as NY, is still much more expensive than most other places in Canada. When a relative found out how much we paid for our house in Toronto, she commented "Wow! For THAT amount you could buy FOUR houses in our [smaller, charmless, economically depressed] town!" How are comments like this relevant to my life, or my choices? I don't want to be a real estate baron in a smaller, crappier town. I want to live in the city that I enjoy and where I work.

Sorry for the tangent. New Yorkers, you have my sympathy.

At the end of the day, when all is said and done, this apartment is beautiful and, if someone can afford it, will ultimately make someone very happy.

And, also, at the end of the day, when all is said and done, those who live in NYC are blessed to be living in such an incredible place.

Actually, when all is REALLY said and done, Canada sucks!!

sorry. just....could...not...resist

roundabout - nicely put.

i came to ny when i was only 10 to escape the sociopolitical turmoil of my home country.
and as an immigrant-nyer-houseowner in manhattan,
i can appreciate all it has to offer.

juan

Fiona, my impression is that coops are much less common in SF than in NYC. The category exists in our MLS listings, but in reality most buildings (at least at the "moderate" end of the market) seem to be condos.

I've always done my "how much will the mortgage be" calculations based on 20% down (at least) on a conventional mortgage, but the trend in California is to put 10% or less down. I'm too lazy to go find the numbers -- and they apply to the whole state -- but more than half of new mortgages for 2005 were 0-down and/or interest-only. So the gap between rent and mortgage would be larger than my calculations give me personally, even though rents are less yummy than Jamie Pup's CL combatants had bragged.

California was seeing 30% increases a year in some parts for a while, due to advantageous financing.

Fiona - I don't think that condos are necessarily more expensive than coops, and generally speaking, maintenance charges in condos are significantly lower than in coops (but you have to pay your property tax on top of maintenance). The huge difference in buying a new, sponsor owned condo, rather than buying from a previous owner, is in your closing costs. They can be double or even triple coop closing costs, and this can be a burden to the needed upfront funds. As far as the down-payment goes, I belive that if you do less than 20%, depending on the size of your mortgage, you have to pay PMI, so even if you can get away with less than 20%, your monthly costs will be higher. I was led to believe that paying PMI was critical to avoid. But a good morgage broker would walk you through all these steps in detail. It's true, though, getting over that down payment hurdle can be the greatest obstacle to purchasing.

P(2):
...or, you can live in a $950 pre-war 1-bedroom with 10'ceinlings next to full colorway (from white-to-black and polka-dots in between) Republicans in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn or Staten Island. As I do. And enjoy the Verrazzano' view.

Just curious - which one ruffles your feathers more, "fat", "Republican" or "white"?

Tangenially on-topic: Kelly's photographs, as lovely as they are, in artistic sense, often use flowers as a focal point (and the only thing in focus, too); is the purpose of the photograph to highlight the flora or the apartment features? I vaguely remember an old thread here at AT that ridiculed similar presentation treatment. Seems nobody objects to that anymore.

Kelly: love the way you emphasised the rare architectural features of the apartment. May be it would make sense, by the way of explaining the price, to list (and show) also all improvements you've invested into?

Oops, just spend [incredible amount of] time scrolling thru the comments.
P(2), my apologies: I see now whom the original remark about white fat republicans belongs to.

[withheld obligatory joke re: boutique-obsessed anorexic white limousine liberals]

Carry on.

Kathy--
The coffee table is the Eames Elliptical table, available at DWR and other places.

Tat--

Where, exactly, are apartments in this city going for $950? Don't give me neighborhoods... give me a street address and a rental agent's number!!!

And, yes, PLEASE let's clarify that I was re-quoting Jonathan with my remark. Which I know is ALWAYS a mistake.

p(2) - Bay Ridge. A friend of mine just moved there -- huge (by Manhattan standards) one-bedroom, about 900 sq. ft., original molding, eat in kitchen, tree-lined block -- $800/month. yes, you have to co-exist with many neighborhood features that you might not find or want in hipper parts of the city, but one gets to a point in life where the $800 might go a lot further than hipness. In all fairness, I will confess that she doesn't love it there, but you never know....life is a series of trade-offs. if you are serious about a rental agent, you will find plenty if you go out there. also, i've noticed that some of the brokers in park slope now even have listings in bay ridge.

" Now maybe you have rich parents or a trust fund or you're a Bush crony, but for the rest of us, we look at the New York situation and just scratch our heads."

I'd say keep on scratching your head until all the hair falls out. it's amazing to think that NYers can be neatly broken down into 3 groups: family wealth, trustafarian or Bush crony. Surprisingly, I'm none of the above and yet I do own my pad. Like the song goes "if you can make it in NY, you'll make it anywhere.."

Topic? the gorgeous pad, the price it will fetch will be the pricing someone else is willng to pay. quite simple.

Barbara,

Condos are significantly more expensive. I just bought a coop a year ago, and looked at both. The difference is quite shocking!

Unfortunately, unless it's a sponsor co-op, as you mentioned, you don't have the option of putting less than 20% down, period. It's not just for PMI. I have no idea why co-ops have such stringent downpayment requirements, given that you have to show your entire financial life anyway, but they do. It's just a weird added obstacle to buying a home in NYC.

Patrick, I apologised already, 2 comments up the thread.

Go to bayridge.com->real estate->apts for rent section. That's how I found mine. Took me 1.5 months but it is worth it. (add'l features: church view from all windows, so I can open my curtains and go gallivanting in my Tayloresque slip all day on Saturday w/o encountering Peeping Toms from across the street. Free organ concerts on Sunday. Plenty of ethnic restaurants along 4th and 5th aves. Bay Ridge Botanic Garden and Pier on the Promenade; etc.
As to scary white fat politically-incorrect neighbors: I pick up the mail for previous renter, a Bosnian Muslim, who receives inordinate amount of campaign letters from lical Republicans. Have no idea how much he weights, though)

Anywhwere else in the country, when you add up the costs of monthly rent and car payments, auto insurance, and record-high gas prices, living in NYC doesn't seem that much more outrageous than some places. yeah, some sacrifices are made in order to pay rent here, but personally I'd rather walk down the block for an amazing meal at the spur of the moment than have to drive 20 minutes into town somewhere for something original.

p.s. Lived in SF too. Beautiful city, but not the easiest to get around without a car.

lovin ny - Ditto! When I lived in SF I had all that you mentioned above: car payments, insurance, maintenance, gas. Those are things I don't have to worry about in Manhattan (no car). Believe it or not, I can live cheaper in NYC than in SF. The car expenses alone are a killer.

I also love the conveniences that NYC has that I found lacking in SF. I may not have a car but I can ANYTHING delivered right to my front door. Can't say that's true anywhere else. And because we aren't a car-obsessed society here we DO have many conveniences within walking distance - grocery stores, dry cleaners, wine shops, health clubs, restaurants, hardware stores, banks, did I say wine shops?, dept. stores, etc....

Can you tell I LOVE NY?!!

And don't forget the awesome NY nightlife. Where else can you pay $13 for a beer?

And if we all moved to Siberia I'm pretty sure we could have huge estates with raindeer butlers for what we're paying to live in NYC.

Wow. Just wow.

Fiona -- condos are more expensive and less problematic than coops because in a condo, you actually own the real estate.

In a coop (or co-op, cooperative apartment), you do not actually own the real estate. You purchase shares in a corporation, and in turn the corporation owns the entire building. Thus, your tax and maintenance fees are included in your coop "maintenance" fee. In a condo, your maintenance fee ususally covers only cleaning, repairs, and insurance on common areas of the building.

Coops are a mostly-NYC phenomenon. Its actually harder, in many cases, to get a mortgage on a coop because there is no true collateral for the bank to hold in case you default. The "shares of a partnership" or "shares of a corporation" construct is also why coop boards can be so stringent with financials; they want to make sure that you can pay the bills and not default on your loans. If you default on your mortgage in a coop, in theory you put your financial risk on all members of the coop.

Class, any other questions?
(Full disclosure: I own a NYC condo)

Ah come on Max - you're going to the wrong places if you're paying $13 for a beer!

(I know, you're just kidding).

But, speaking of billyburg (where Kelli's beautiful place is), Brooklyn Brewery is there and they have live bands and great beer for next to nothing every weekend.
brooklynbrewery.com

I am going to chime in and offer my 2 cents as someone who (1) lives in NYC and (2) works in real estate. First I would like to echo that the apartment is beautiful, stunning really. But, I have to agree, although I am admittedly not familiar with the Williamsburg market and not a broker, the price does seem high. Kelli, you may have a few brokers come in to see your place and tell you what they would list it for- that should give you a feel of the current market. This doesn't obligate you to anything (unless you sign an agreement- so don't) and you can tell them you are shopping for a broker and get their pitch. Unless your neighbor sold very recently, it may not be an accurate comparison. The market has slowed in recent months, apartments are staying on the market longer, buyers are being pickier, bargaining more, etc. You can check the following site to see what other units in your area have sold for recently: http://propertyshark.com/mason/nyc/index.html

And just to respond to Patrick, I believe the order goes like this: single largest land owner in NYC . . . NYU, second . . . the Archdiocese of NY, third . . . the city itself (think Central Park and other public areas). I think Columbia Univ. is somewhere up there in the mix and almost everything else is owned by corporations. Most "homeowners" in NYC don't actually own the land, they own the shares in a cooperative corporation (which in turn owns the building and maybe the land, but the land may also be leased) or a condomiumium unit and proportionate share of the common space (i.e. the rest of the building that isn't someone's individual unit). Anyway, best of luck to Kelli and I hope you find some of the comments helpful.

Hi Kelli
Absolutely loved your apartment and photography (and design, of course) talent on display. The white and the bright splashes of color make the place seem at once vibrant and peaceful. Also the place looks huge for the square footage you mention.
I have been looking for a breakfast bar almost exactly like the one in your place. So am most curious as to where you sourced it from.
Thanks
P

anne, have you tried any Six Points beer? The brewery is in Red Hook. It's really good stuff! I'm hooked on their Sweet Action hybrid beer. Don't ask me how it's a hybrid, but I guess it's not quite an ale and not quite a stout or something like that.

But back on topic: Kelli's place is beautiful. I actually almost bid on a place in that building about 4 years ago or so when it was under construction. The columns and ceilings are wonderful. That said I also feel that she's asking bit more than she'll be able to get. I might actually start it off low and see if you can get people bidding for it. If someone comes in at your low offer you don't have to take it. I bet this place would generate a TON of interest at about 650K. And that interest could lead to bids getting up towards what she's asking now.

Me--I know all that, since I own a coop and also looked at condos. But thanks for the class! :P

What I was asking about was why the co-op downpayment is a minimum of 20%. I'm not sure it has to do with financials since they see your income and how stable your finances are, anyway (since you have to create book of all your papers)

i have no idea what this apartment looks like, but the furniture is beautiful and the flowers are pretty.

but seriously, to pay 700K for a studio with a murphy bed in brooklyn - no, i just couldn't, even if i could. i'm a new yorker, and i actually *understand* the dynamic coming from the "foreigners." yes, i like what a metropolis has to offer - but as Patrick from Toronto points out, you can have that, and still not have to put up with this real estate craziness.

personally, if i found me the right job, i'd get my butt to toronto in a heartbeat.

This is really at the high end of $/sq.ft. for the neighborhood. Smith Gray is nice, but it is not a full-service building. It also has had a protracted lawsuit against the Sponsors. I'm not sure if that has been settled yet. There is only one elevator and i believe laundry is on each floor, not in each unit.

There are still values in South Williamsburg, and you now have the ferry to Manhattan as well as the JMZ trains which do not suffer from over crowding like the L.

Frankly, I'm wouldn't pay this much for what amounts to a gussied-up studio apartment. You have to look past the staging, and pretty pictures. Note there isn't one shot of the apartment as a whole. You only see bits and pieces.

Marie said, "New Yorkers are just cooler, smarter and wealthier than most of the country. We can't help it, that's just the way we roll!"

Can you please explain your comment Marie because I'm not sure if you were teasing or serious.

Holly

Hi, thanks for all the interest, and comments positive and negative, I am flattered, very helpful.

Let's see, Sara, the sheets were marimekko crate and barrel last year I think, Fiona, the backsplash is oiled, grade A ( lower grades lack the drama of the grade A I found out the hard way ) cherry wood backed veneer applied to masonite and installed with screws hidden behind the cabinets, PN the breakfast bar was custom made, same oiled cherry veneer as the backsplash, the grout is 2 years old and looks like new, it is all in using the right sealer and never clorox which ruins the grout by making it more porous, I only use hydrogen peroxide to clean it and reseal once a year.

The price, I love what Anne and Clutter free miss said, that's how I feel. I am doing what is right for me, I do not have a trust fund or any income other that what I work very hard for, I think there is a market for people who will pay for design ( as was mentioned, Gucci ), that person is my customer, I am my customer.

Has anyone been to 40 Gramercy Park, John Pawson residences, Ian Schrager Hotel in one building so you get hotel amenities. 7 MILLION, for the 7th floor, around 2000 sf I think, I went to check out the competition ( my firm does hotel design), they are selling, I even found it unbelievable. Someone is paying for design.

I am not in a hurry to sell. I have met with 2 realtors who felt I could get $700, the unit that is $630,00 is very dark, no view, and no upgrades, ( just for those who do not know the prices of some the type upgrades I have, just one Vola faucet, not installed, is over $1200) but has a porch you share with someone ( all in what you want ), the lawsuit was settled this year and from what I heard we got a nice cash settlement as well as a new roof, and lots of other fixes the sponsor was obligated to do even as detailed as changing the door knobs from round to levers to meet code. I thought the board did a nice job on that. My cc is very low, thanks for noticing, taxes abated, you pay per month for a full service building you know, thanks for the ferry info, I forgot about that.

Let's see oh, I do work at home sometimes, all home office stuff hidden ( a minimailist with home office stuff out... nooooo ), neatly organized in wall of cabinets behind table with flowers, there is a picture of the column in a picture with flowers, yes, I like flowers... anyway, good point, when people come over the men (even macho furniture delivery guys) love the apartment as much as the women, here it seems the women respond more, it is a super bachelor pad I will have to ad some more masculine shots, thanks...I wanted the site to be different from a real estate ad on purpose

thanks again for all the tips, I am going to finish putting all of the arrows on the right, I will post for sure when I sell, best to all, Kelli

jamiepup, this is from a while back, but it's gotta be said.

i work in TriBeCa.

it takes me 10 minutes to negotiate my way across Canal over to Desbrosses street every morning, around all the Holland Tunnel craziness.

i have never seen a supermarket or any sort of food shop there other than the most basic deli/bodega.

i have never seen any restaurants there that aren't super fancy reservations months in advance type affairs.

i have never seen a place to do laundry.

i have a feeling there are a few bank branches around there, but i'm not sure i've ever actually encountered one.

this is why i say it's a desolate wilderness. sure, if you live there and you're happy, go for it. i'm not saying nobody is allowed to live in TriBeCa or that there isn't a lovely sense of community there. but, you know, after seeing the bills i'd be racking up from the laundry and grocery deliveries, and having to hike it over to chinatown to find an ATM, i probably wouldn't feel so excited about those Arne Jakobsen bathroom fixtures anymore...

and i say all this from experience: i just came from 2 years in a huge raw-space loft in Long Island City. yeah, it was great to be able to rollerskate around the house. i had a disco ball, and a roof garden, and a kitchen that is bigger than my current living room. and there's a great sense of community there -- very diverse, lots of families and artists. but i had to walk 5 blocks down Northern Boulevard to do laundry or go to the bank. the sushi place refused to deliver so i had to walk all the way over to Skillman Ave. to pick it up, by which time it was all soggy and gross.

Hey guys, wow, I really touched a nerve there with the New Yorkers. I just have one question for all the folks in NY, if it's not expensive to live there, then why are you being so defensive? Hmm...

I agree with Virginia. I've been to Chicago and I've been to New York. Given the choice I'd take Chicago over New York. Chicago, Toronto, there are many other metropolitan cities that have arts, culture, ethnic restaurants, hipsters as New York at a far lower price. The difference between $350/sq feet and $800/sq feet is the difference between retiring at 55 or retiring at 65.

When you're paying $800/sq feet and carrying a massive mortgage, you don't own the house - the house owns you. Meva, thanks for the info, what makes it worse is that New Yorkers are not even owning the real estate, but shares in a company that owns the real estate? No thanks.

pphillihpp, the job market here is tight right now but if you have the skills, you'll be in demand. In any case, I think people should wake up and smell the bubble. This real estate bubble is worse than the one in the late 80's, and I remember seeing houses lose half their value. If this happens, people holding $700K co-ops (not even the property itself) are going to be in a massive world of pain.

By the way, all the New Yorkers here talk about how great New York is and how everyone wants to live there and how people are jealous, yet don't mention why anyone would be jealous. Exactly what are people supposed to be jealous of? The overpriced real estate? The brutal traffic/commutes? The rude people? The ridiculous cost of living? The bad attitude that New Yorkers are world famous for? There is nothing to be jealous of. I pity you poor poor people.

I lived in NYC. I slept in a music studio on a futon in Harlem after I left my job at a software firm in Boston, and I loved it. NYC rocks. You just don't spend anytime in your house. Ok. So, back in Boston. Yes, you have to sell a kidney and kill your firstborn to get a decent place here. It is even worse in NYC.

We are happily renting in the safest place in America (Newton, MA), the 2nd floor, 2 bedroom, dining, huge kitchen and pantry, office, etc., and 3rd floor (attic) which we are rennovating to be another studio for art/music - all this in a 2 family house on a private street for the price of a 1 br in Bed-sty or a Harlem Studio.

We have a porch, yard and more windows than I have ever lived with. Still can't figure out what to do with 20+ windows. We are surrounded by four 18-40 foot pine and fur trees. We hear birds every morning, and my commute is EITHER BY WALKING, BUS, OR A SHORT DRIVE. I have a 30 minute or a 10 minute commute to a boring office park set in a wildlife sanctuary. I see bunnies and wild turkeys all the time, and the office is close to a highway to get the hell out of town. I can take public transit to a bar or shoppping downtown (in the city) in 30 minutes or less from my house, or my work. Guess what? I still don't own a car.

And I'm originally from a big house in Texas, and yes, out in the country, where you REALLY don't hear any noise.

So there! My husband and I can't afford to buy yet (and don't want to in this market), we rent, and with two of us, it is not bad, but the whole rent *is* one of my bi-monthly paychecks. The bills are about the same. We can't even figure out how to afford a house with non-existent credit. And we have great jobs and are paying our college debts down monthly. There seems to be no end in sight. We might have to move to Maine. It's crazy.
We'd live in Connecticut and commute in if we worked in NYC again. It's too expensive and we have too much great stuff!

Okay, maybe I wasn't clear: I do NOT think the price of this place is really that insane (hence my listings of Chicago apartments that are similarly priced). But until I (1) win the lottery to get the NYC pad of my dreams and (2) manage to convince the partner that it's worth spending part of those lotto winnings on a place in NYC, I'll settle for being a visitor. Besides, I love Chicago more than NYC, so even if I did win the lotto, I'd only want a pied-a-terre in NYC anyway.

One more addition to "this is what *I* do" rant above - Yes, things are expensive - It's not that NYorkers have a bad attitude - people anywhere can have a bad attitude - we just have to remember, it's not always a good day, week, or month for any of us, and there is no excuse to be rude.

Part of the housing bubble is based on fear, inflation, and empty dot-com type promises. We need to petition our "leaders" to make corporations and basically, greedy people, to play nice with the "rest of us" - the 70% of people who "rent" or barely own - the middle class is shrinking in America, and no where can you see it more obviously is in the major metropolitan areas: NYC, Boston, LA, Seattle, Chicago, Miami - the housing prices do not match our salaries. They just don't. I know - I am at the top of my pay scale and very well compensated for what we would consider a middle-mgmt/professional/tech/marketing position...

Those tenured, professional employees making 70-150K per year usually don't "live it up" - we scrape and save for our mortgage or rent. It's not easy paying our debts, and more, but its better than living in a hovel in a 3rd world country. We don't even have kids - and we can barely keep it together with one of us as a consultant and the other one "salaried" - - imagine the IRS. They are not nice.

Our neighbors who own, who make a little over 20% more than us are struggling - and they own a beautiful Craftsman cottage. We should reflect.

opoponax
I take your point about LIC but Tribeca is different. There is a large Food Emporium on Greenwich and Reade which used to be mediocre until Fresh Direct came along and shook things up in lower manhattan. Supermarkets had to compete and they got cleaner and stocked more and better/fresher stuff. We still get about 2-3 deliveries a week from FD though because we need to with children. Jin Market on Hudson between North Moore and Franklin has a great selection of staples, gourmet stuff and supplies. A bit expensive but it's open 24 hours and is in the middle of Tribeca so it is convenient for all parts of Tribeca. Kings Pharmacy on Reade and Hudson is a great fall back when you need kids' stuff, toys, bottles, diapers, etc. as well as cards when you forget to go to Hallmark. It's better than Duane Reade in that it caters for the community that has a lot of families.

As for not expensive restaraunts, you must know Sosa Borella because you only seem to know northern tribeca, but there is also Walkers (great pub food), Gee Whizz diner (full of families again), some good value Japanese places, Kitchenette, Cercle Rouge.

Laundry? We have a w/d in the apt and when we were buying here a few years ago and more recently, every place we looked at from every kind of loft conversion (pro to DIY) had a w/d in the apt. Maybe that's why there are no laundramats. The cookie cutter apts on 275/295/303/311 Greenwich all have w/d in the apts also.

Obviously living and working in a hood is different but you seem to be thinking only of northern tribeca which does have less services than middle and southern tribeca but real tribeca only goes for about 10 blocks anyway so we are not talking great distances from any part of tribeca.

What did I forget? Banks. Commerce and Northfork around Chambers and Duane. Citibank on Hudson between N moore and BEach. You can't have explored much of tribeca at all.

Thanks, Kelli. Good luck to you! No harm in asking your price, if you aren't in a hurry, and then you can see what happens. It's certainly a lovely apartment.

And just to jump into the debate--I love both Tribeca and LIC, but when you move into LIC, you have got to know that you are moving into a developing neighborhood. I live in Jackson Heights, and I see amenities moving in (although we have restaurants galore) but I didn't move here thinking it was the East Village, where I used to live. I think Tribeca is much more developed than LIC, personally.

By the way, Patrick, no one is saying NYC is *not* expensive. Of course it is! But people choose to live here anyway, because they feel it's worth. Like I said, it's not for everyone, and it's not for you, obviously.

But pity? That's just silly. :P
I never want to live in Kansas, but I certainly don't pity the people who live there. They like living in Kansas, even if it's not for me.

And a bad attitude is not limited to NYC. It's much worse in my hometown. MUCH worse, unfortunately.

For cheap eats how could I forget yaffa's? Just walked by it on the way to the kids school.

Q: Reason that New Yorkers love New York and why it's better than any other city?


A: While you may think that Chicago, Toronto, Boston, Los Angeles, etc have things like art, music, food, cultural diversity, fashion, design, architecture, specialization and niche markets, unique jobs & opportunities, forward social, political, and economic thinking that are exactly the same as NYC just at a lower price... remember that New York IS WHERE IT ALL BEGINS.

New Yorkers love it here because they are in the middle, the center, at the birth of all the absolute best of these things.

Of course, NY can clearly be very expensive- but some people are willing to pay a premium to live here for these things- and to be a part of it.

Expecting rebuttals, but thought i'd offer that up...

-k

And, Max-

yes, I've had the Six Point Craft Ale Sweet Action- it's unbelievable...

-kellen

Why don't we put this to bed now? Kelli's apartment is beautiful and she will get her price if someone wants to pay it, which I'm sure they will.

Patrick -

You just don't get NY, do you?

Go ahead and HATE us, and we'll just take comfort in the fact that you don't get IT!

Clutterfreemiss,

Thanks for letting us know that it's time to end a thread.

Are you New Tenant? I see similarities.

Hey Kelli
Thanks for the responses and the promise of updates. I did say in my first post that you would need to sell to a narrow selection of ppl and there's nothing wrong with that. However, as others have said and hinted, when your place is not as comformist as others, in a slightly soft selling market you could wait longer than you expect to sell when your's is not seen as the place with value compared to others.

I do get your point about the Schrager apts and you can include Jean Nouvel's/Balaaz's 40 Mercer in the list of high end apts that have sold out quickly because they caught the attention of the monied set but there are plenty of other high end conversions stagnating. I give a little bit of info about that in this post on curbed (I am VDH there)
http://www.curbed.com/archives/2006/05/22/brokerage_battle_gets_catty.php

Did you read that urbandigs and truegothams link I provided? I thought they were very helpful, up to the minute, "in the trenches" take on the current market.

BTW, I really like your place.

Thanks Jamie, I'll check out those links.

Honestly, I am trying to buy a building that has been abandoned for 30 years, 1/2 of the owner ( the wife ) wants to sell, the other 1/2 ( the husband ) still wants to reno and sell ( it is completely gutted right now w/ of course no CofO ), if something changes on that outlook I will be more motivated, until then I am content and curious to see what happens with my place and price. I like new projects...

It has been nice chatting with you all, thanks again for all the comments and info,

Good Luck to everyone with what makes you happy,

Kelli

Patrick - you think NYers are rude? We can top you. You come on to a NYC website populated mostly by NYers who love this city and then proceed to slam us? I think NYers are some of the nicest people on the planet but then you've only just "been to NY" whatever that means (did you have a layover at JFK?)Obviously bad attitude can be found everywhere you just proved you have one. Our traffic problems are small compared to LA and our high real estate can't even come close to other, not so popular cities. We love our city and live here by choice so there is no need to pity us. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable being part of a Toronto blog since you have such a distain for us and our city.

I meant to say "we CAN'T top you"

jamie pup! you are VDH? my mind is blown.

Hi Kelli
I wish you all the best and hope that new project works out for you.

Jonathan —
I can only guess that you are feeling defensive about New York due to earlier negative comments and not mine, which did not disparage New York in the least (in fact, I sympathized with people who are willing to pay a premium to live in a city they love). Defensiveness is the only explanation I can find for your juvenile and irrelevant "Canada sucks!" comment.

roundabout, you'll get used to jonathan if you stick around a bit.

As for the rude new yorker stereotype, whenever I hear that I simply think of it in the same way I do for tourists (who I think are great for nyc and I welcome them) who think that Times Square represents nyc. Hence my previous post using times square as an example of outsiders commenting on nyc prices.

It is true, however, that 1600 Broadway - which is in the middle of a place that no resident nycer would want to live - has been bought up at very high $psf prices by out of towners both in the US and from other countries.

Yup, fongcy (can I say Heeeeeeeeeeey?) VDH is my slightly more snarky persona on curbed. Afterall, that is what curbed is all about isn't it?

Why on earth would anyone feel defensive about NYC?

Having lived on both coasts (as many of us here have), I'm happy to confess that San Francisco (the most densely urbanized city in California) looks like a small town compared to NYC. It's smaller scale. We have less "cultcha," and some of what we have is either imported from NY ("Best of Broadway") or less sophisticated (SF Opera, gawdhelpus). We have far less exciting shopping and generally a lot LESS of things other than palm trees, Chinatown souvenirs, and gratuitous nudity.

Why do I live here? I'm a native Californian. It's what we do. And the weather's very nice.

I live in Manhattan (Upper East Side) and just moved here from San Francisco/Berkeley about a year ago.

My fiancee and I are planning to move somewhere else in a year.

Reasons for our move here:

1. It is the place to be for the Fashion industry
2. We've always been fond of Manhattan from our visits here when we were younger

What we've found is that it's a lot different when one has to live here. Manhattan is OK, but the big downsides are:

1. Filthiness of the city
2. Weather is unpleasant for half the year

#1 is the real deal breaker. I cannot believe how dirty the city is (the word ATROCIOUS is not enough to describe it). I've since acclimated myself a bit, but still cannot get over how foul the streets and subway are. I swear there is dirt buildup from the early 20th century in the grooves of escalator steps here. And what's up with the practice of leaving garbage bags on the streets for pickup? Yuck!!! I am already dreading the melange of summer heat and sidewalk garbage bags.

Having visited other MAJOR cities with similar or HIGHER population densities, entertainment and cultural offering (Rome, London, Paris, Tokyo)that are perfectly clean compared to New York, there is just no excuse. I would have no problem eating off the streets of Tokyo, but feel dirty walking down Broadway with three pairs of socks on.

I realized why I fell in love with Manhattan when I visited in my early twenties. One is that I, like many people at that age, was in my partying mode so of course I had a good time. Secondly, since I visited on business trips, most of my time around town was spent in the evening. Manhattan is a much more agreeable place at night ('cause you've probably had some wine and you can't see the dirt!).

Additionally, the LARGE majority of genuinely interesting, wonderful, outgoing and happy people we've met here are not native New Yorkers. New Yorkers are definitely more focused on their own lives. I'm not saying New Yorkers aren't nice people, but you have to draw it out of them. My observations are that they do not display the intellectual curiosity for other people's lives or the natural courtesy that one sees in cities on the West Coast and in the South.

Thomas

Thomas,

Good riddens.

Have fun eating off of the sidewalks of Tokyo.

Thanks juanito.

One thing I've learned in NYC is that you gotta turn the other cheek as New Yorkers tend to get aggravated very easily (even though they expect you to have a thick skin). I can't believe the number of public arguments I have either witnessed or have been part of. The idea of giving someone the benefit of the doubt is seen a lot less rarely here than in other parts of the nation.

Seeing their adversary calm and collected will make New Yorkers get angrier. Try it the next time you accidentally bump into a person and they're yelling at you before you get a chance to apologize. Smile at them and say 'I'm sorry that YOU are upset'.

It's a shame that most people don't realize that anger and negative feelings doesn't just hurt the other person, but instead, it mostly winds up hurting the person harboring those feelings the most.

Cheers,
Thomas

Thanks, too, Thomas for your heartfelt Oprah-pop-psyche class on how ersatz courtesy is the best weapon against "NY rudeness."

That is oh-so manipulative of you.

And oh, Have a GREAT day, OK.

Thomas, Yes, it is dirty here. I've lived here for so long that I take it in stride but have to admit that I HATE those garbage bags piled up on the sidewalks. Mostly because they block the sidewalk not because garbage is piled up. The garbage is picked up within 12 hours of putting it out anyway.

NYers are focused, that's for sure. But a kind smile and nod will break the ice. We are willing to help anyone out if they ask or look lost. And we love starting up conversations in restaurants/bars.

I'm sorry you are having such a bad time of it. It takes a while to get in the groove but if you need to move on at least you spent some time here and must have found some great things while here. And you have to admit that the fashion industry here is pretty awesome.

Thanks anne. We are enjoying New York, don't get me wrong. We've made some what I hope to be life long friends.

I'm just trying to point out that NY may not necessarily be the ultimate destination that some civic-minded people make it out to be.

juanito, in reading over this thread and catching up, I've noticed that all your posts are very negative. Have you noticed this also?

juanito, please calm down. You are overreacting.

No, I'm not new tenant. Why would you say that? I'm just sick of this argument and all the negativity that somehow has become the norm here.

Thomas it's too bad you feel that way. But I think a hundred people will have a hundred different opinions - yours is only one. You can have a bad experience with one native and around the corner have a great experience with another. There are small kindnesses that go unnoticed every day here - perhaps the noise drowns that out. Last week I paid for an elderly visitor's bus fare because she didn't have correct change - and chatted her up about the museum she's heading to. No one had to "draw it out" of me. I was curious and interested about her trip here.

Of course I can get exasperated the next minute if non-locals are standing smack-dab on a busy corner while examining a big map, blocking everyone else's path. Or walking slowly down a sidewalk five abreast. Basically New Yorkers just want to get from Point A to Point B. We walk fast. But most of us are pretty nice.

And down here in Soho our sidewalks are pretty darn clean.

It's been such an interesting thread re: pricing and condo/co-op info. I've been considering a move further downtown and a realtor value my current studio nearly quintuple what I paid for it eight years ago. It's nuts. But there's no other city I really want to live in right now. I could buy a five bed/four bath home a mile from DisneyWorld for that price.... but I'm staying in NYC.

JP, gee thanks for the link to Curbed. Like I need another blog to keep me from work/life!

I've seen the blog before but in looking it over just now I realize I've got one more thing to add to my bookmarks. I'm never gonna get out of here.

(turn off computer, turn off computer, turn off computer)

Juanito, yeah- i do think you're being kind of harsh...

I think Thomas has made a valid point about the dirt/grime/filth of NYC- it IS a dirty city... especially when compared to other big cities.

That said, I still think parts of it are remarkably clean. And ALL of it is beautiful to me.

Originally from Chicago, and then Madison, I have to disagree about the weather being bad 1/2 of the year- NY just has true seasonal weather just like most other places in the US- I think Cali is the anomaly- a nice anomaly, but one nonetheless... NY is not all sunshiny and nice all the time- and neither are the people or the environment. But, that's real life if you ask me. There are great highs and some shitty parts too.

But, New York for many that live here is the most amazing and envigorating place in the county. It sometimes can be a challenge- but one that inspires growth, change, strength and flexibility. Just as people say that if you can make it in NY you can make it anywhere, I have also heard people say (and have come to adopt myself) that NY is a place where you HAVE to have your shit together- emotionally, personally, and professionally -in order to thrive here...

and, I just love that.

-Kellen-

I recognize the "Canada sucks" comment was juvenile. I just couldn't help it. Since hating the French is one of my keenest hobbies, Canada by association...omehow bears the taint. The taint of the Frogs.

But the whole "New Yorkers are rude" thing? That perception lags reality by 20 years. New Yorkers are among the most polite people in this country. As long as you observe rules relating to personal space and don't block people from moving, everyone is very polite here.

I want to make it clear that what I posted is merely my point of view based on my observations. In no way was it meant to be interpreted as gospel.

That is always my assumption when entering into a dialogue and I appreciate the people here who are of like mind.

There is not always a 'right' and 'wrong'. People, and especially people here in NY based on my interactions, have a tendency to forget that what they are hearing and what they themselves are expressing are merely opinions and not fact.

OK. I take it back.

Maybe I should stick to the orignal thread topic.
Kelli, your home is lovely; the light and clean minimalism are sublime. It will be sure to sell
easily. Nice job on the web site. I really adore it!

OK. I take it back.

Maybe I should stick to the original thread topic.
Kelli, your home is lovely; the light and clean minimalism are sublime. It will be sure to sell
easily. Nice job on the web site. I really adore it!

Wow, lots of flames but I noticed that everyone avoided my question, what makes New York so special?

"The Center of it all"? That's what other cities in Canada accuse Toronto of. So what?

How about someting that truly makes New York so-called "better" than any other place? All I've heard so far is, "Yes it's expensive but it's the best". The best of what exactly?

I'm not sure where the trash would go, if not on the sidewalk. What are the other possibilities? I'm asking seriously. In Florida, we put trash in an alley, but we don't have alleys here. (At least, very few alleys.) It's absolutely not ideal, but how do other large cities without alleys handle it? My friend in SF puts it on the front curb, but she has a bayside mansion with an actual front yard.

My neighborhood does get a lot of litter, but most of NYC is pretty litter-free, barring trash can overflow/heavy wind. But my husband and I are are actually participating in the next litter pickup in our 'hood. Not because I think it will be fun, but because I care about our neighborhood and want to improve it.

Hating Canada because you hate the French? Is this the same attitude that gets used to justify why New York is "The Best"? If so then it's just a bunch of blind posturing by a bunch of self-absorbed people with an false sense of superiority complex.

New York probably has the best restaurants and nightlife in the country.

It's also a great city to meet people in because it's such a destination city. Part of the reason we felt comfortable moving here is that we knew we'd meet people from all types of life and from all parts of the world. This 'world village' makes NY a very pleasant city to interact with. It's like San Francisco times at least 10 in all these aspects. And SF ain't no pushover.

As I mentioned before, it's the US hub for fashion as well as finance. That's a lot of cultural clout.

However, I do miss the natural greenery of other cities. The ability to go on a real scenic hike within city boundaries is something I definitely miss. Central Park is nice, but it's not the same as it is not a natural park. It's more like a large pretty garden. There are way too many barriers and fences around the green areas to my liking.

As for the trash question...hm...in my neighborhood, there's one day a week where cars on one side of the street are not allowed to park for a four hour(?) period. Why not have all buildings be required to standardize on the same type of trash can/dumpsters that can be wheeled to the street to be picked up by trash trucks during these time periods?

Patrick-

please actually take the time to read my posts on this thread...

i have offered up at least why I BELIEVE New York is so amazing.

thank you.

-Kellen-

-lowest crime rate of large cities in USA
-best restaurants
-Broadway theatre
-center of fashion in the country
-Wall Street - center of finance in the country
-best mass transit
-more universities and museums than any other city in the country
-opera, ballet, NY Philharmonic
-friendly people
-heavy tourist industry
-many many landmarks
-absence of Patrick from Toronto
-healthy film industry
-most fabulous shopping in the country
-magnificent nightlife
-best chefs in the country

But you've been here, Patrick so you already know this city well enough to slam it. Why are you even asking for validation from those of you live here, commit to it for better or worse and for taking a hit for the country (along with DC). Oh right, you live in another country. Toronto is a wonderful city. Stay there and enjoy it for all of us.

Yes Thomas, Central Park is a planned park but I bet you'd be hard pressed to think of it as anything but natural in certain areas. Explore it before you leave. You'll be amazed that you're still in Manhattan in some areas of the park.

Patrick's from Toronto?

OK, I get it now.

Patrick, New York is the 'best' because people here actually have a sense of humor. and ditto everything anne said. 10 million of us can't be wrong.
Chill out, sheesh.

Oh yeah, I forgot something. More songs have been written about NYC, more stories have been written about NYC than Toronto or any other city on earth. I wonder why that is?

Patrick's from Toronto! That really really
kills me. I thought he was from maybe Berlin, Paris. London perhaps.

But Toronto? HA!

Anne, that's a really good list. Noticed that even with the list you had to throw some hate in there though, it's too bad people here can't have a civil discussion.

We have all those same things here in Toronto (other than my absence). And the folks in London, Berlin, etc can all claim the same things. So there's really nothing unique that you couldn't find in any other major metropolitan city.

Hey Patrick, if that's what you think then that's ok.

Howeever, I have lived and worked in London, Rome, Tokyo, New York, have visited Paris on numerous occassions and all cities are very different. If you think that there is really nothing unique about any of them then there is nothing that anyone can say to change your mind.

I agree with Jamie Pup.

Thomas, the reason you aren't allowed to park on one side of the street is that they are street cleaning. It would be a little counter-productive to collect garbage while sweeping! (Not to mention, the sweepers can't be blocked, which is why you can't park there without risk of being towed)

I'm guessing all big cities do it the same way as NYC, but cities like LA and SF just have more homes vs. apartment buildings, which decreases the trash you see. If anyone knows otherwise, let me know.

Poor Kelli--at least her thread had lots of visitors!

OK People.... enough already.

Can I be the voice of reason here?

The world is a very very big place with a lot of great places to live.
I have been to NY, London, Paris, San Fran, Frankfurt...bla bla bla my home is in Toronto. Not all of us Torontonians feel the way Patrick does (but that's his right).

I love NY and try to get my fix every few years.

You donÂ’t have to justify your choices...but donÂ’t be critical of the choices of others either.

Many people live in a place because they truly love it and others like a designer label they are duped into thinking they should own, choose to live in places because of the supposed "it" factor.

Whatever your reason ENJOY

There have been plenty of voices of reason already. Surely you did not seriously believe you were the only one?

This is a beautiful place. You should post it on our site. You can post it for free! Beautiful place! www.emongoo.com

Anon

I'm never THAT serious.

I'm a late commenter, but.. I was looking at the link in one of the threads of the other unit for sale in this same building on the 2nd floor.

I find it interesting it was originally listed for 630k (according to the commnets), and tonight noticed it's "in contract" for 599k (lowered asking price, I assume). And this is almost 3 months after this FSBO.

Are there other apartments of this type in any other area of Brooklyn, Queens or Manhattan at this price?

The poster above MELA should check their facts regarding the sale of the apartment. The apartment sold for $670,000. Check propertyshark.com or acris. It was NEVER in contract for 599,000.

Kelli