apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

I don't have any recommendations to make but I'm interested in suggestions for soundproofing as well.

I hear a lot more from above than just stomping and dogs racing. Believe me, there are just some things in this world I just don't need to hear. :-)

Leslie

you say they refuse to get area rugs – last time i checked the house rules of my coop (and every lease i've ever had), refusing wasn't an option. if she is allergic, she never should have moved into a building that has these rules (assuming for a moment that such is the case).

I don't know for sure, but when I called a soundproofing place to ask about my apartment because of horrible stompy upstairs neighbors, the guy I spoke to said that it wouldn't really help for percussive noises, i.e. stomping. He was very nice about it and said he didn't want me to waste my money. I can't remember the name of the company, but it was some place I read about in either Time Out or New York magazine a few years ago. Anyway, I don't mean to be a downer, I was just thinking maybe you should inquire about that specifically as you're investigating places...good luck!

Our ceiling was soundproofed before we moved in. The upstairs neighbor was worried about his kids making noise, so he paid to have holes drilled into our ceiling and a foamy material sprayed out into the gap between our ceiling and their floor. I think it cost about $5000 and I can't see it's made a bit of difference. I can still hear everything.

This month's Fine Homebuilding has a whole article on soundproofing, but it's mostlty about walls.

I know drop ceilings are generally ugly, but you'll probably have to do something like that. Sound passes most easily through solid materials, so you need to structurally isolate your ceiling from their floor, and then you need a sound-absorbing material in your ceiling. If you do end up with a drop ceiling, you could paint the tiles or use fabric to ease the fugliness.

You'd THINK that these people would get some slippers, or is your upstairs neighbor allergic to those too?

It's just common, considerate sense to tread lightly.

most coops have the carpet rule - in rentals there are no rules. supposedly when they renovated the apt above us they soundproofed - but I still hear every step. Maybe it only works for tv/music noises which we never seem to hear.

Maybe the upstairs neighbors would agree to cork floors in their unit if they won't agree to carpeting? It's certainly more expensive, but I've heard people say it is good for dampening noise.

thanks everyone! i have the sick feeling that "arg" is right: regular soundproofing won't muffle the stomping. this is a rental and these people have lived in the building for ten years. i think the owner is old family "friends" with him and knew his deceased mother so there's layers of history there. that said, the dude should just get a grip and put down carpet but he absolutely refuses. i say daily morning meditations so as not to go up there and strangle the creep.

To the best of my knowledge, the only way to insulate a ceiling (which does suffer from percussive transmission) is to create an airspace between the original ceiling and the new one. This doesn't have to be a terribly large space, but typically it's about 8 inches. A new ceiling is installed below the original, complete with new framing, drywall, insulation, wiring, etc. if your really into soundproofing, a layer of mass-loaded-vinyl gets stapled to the studs, glued over at the staple points and drywall applied over that. It would take an elephant in stilettos to transfer percussive sound in that case.

As long as there is a solid connection between the sound source and your apartment, you will hear the noise. The source must be de-coupled from the target in order to soundproof. The joists are what carry the noise. Cork underlayment works when installed on the top floor (it has air holes and absorbs the sound before reaching the joists), but it must not be nailed (otherwise the nails carry the sound).

I don't know where you are, but here in NYC standard leases on rentals require 85% of the floor be covered (although area covered by furniture can be counted as part of this total). Most coops and condos also have carpet rules, too.

One of my neighbors was forced to soundproof her livnig room because neighbors complained about her (classical) piano playing -- her profession and living. A structure was built out from the wall nearest the offended party's apt -- she lost 6 inches of her living room, which may not sound like a lot, but her place feels a LOT smaller now.

If you are willing to let the joists carry the reverberations from stomping, here's my expensive suggestion for an old townhouse-tenement style building that as far as I can tell does block all noise except vibrations.

when I renovated the front section of my apartment, which runs partly under the main hall of our tenement co-op, I wanted to preserve the ceiling height (9' to the joists) but still limit noise from the front-door hall. I stripped the ceiling as far as possible, exposing the joists and the pipes and insulation between them (total, total mess; you will have to move out of that room for the duration). This revealed many code violations of pipes and wires, which were fixed, and the old insulation was replaced with layers of new, sound-proof insulation. Vary the layers -- each time the material changes, it breaks up the sound waves. Then I sheetrocked between the joists, sealing each strip of sheetrock to the still-exposed joists (the classic East Village tudor look that maximizes the ceiling height). It actually works rather well, I never hear voices or door slamming from the hall, and I've had no trouble sleeping under it. When only the 12-inch thick joists carry the sound, the truth is they don't carry much. It is a lot of manhours though -- a lot of demolition, and then a lot of insulation and sheetrock cutting by hand.

as someone who lived thru the same thing, i have to concur that it will be very difficult for you to soundproof your ceiling. i brought in several people to give me estimates for the work, and the final thought was the same: it would cost a lot, and i'd be disappointed with the results.

if it really bothers you, you should consider moving. it sounds drastic, yes, but your home should be comfortable to you.

i moved a few months ago to escape the noise, and frankly, it was the best thing i could have ever done to improve my quality of life.

on another note, if you presume that someone above you is disregarding the 80% floor covering rule, how appropriate is it to bring this to the co-op boards attention and does anyone have any experience getting the board to force the person to take measures to alleviate the problem?

I have no suggestions, only commiseration as I sit at my desk exhausted after yet another 6 am stompin' wake-up call. It's a rental and I've had fantasies about putting up something--a tapestry with quilt batting behind it, cork--to try and muffle her. Does anyone think that might work? I'm thinking about a holiday offering of cashmere slippers. If I could afford it, I'd include an ABC gift certificate. Arg indeed.

My problem comes from the guy BELOW me, watching war movies til 1 am and playing horrid music with heavy base beats. He's rather proud of his stereo system, to say the least. When I sit on my floor, I can *feel* the base.

Our building has 'quiet hours' after 10 or 10.30 or so, so if things are out of hand, I go down and respectfully ask him to turn things down. He complies. But he genuinely doesn't think his sound is too loud.

Anything I can do? Will an area rug in my space help me (something I've been meaning to do anyway...)? Any other suggestions?

thanks!

Insulation will help reduce noise from speech, television, music, etc., but isn't effective for impact ("footfall") noise. Also, insulating the ceiling alone will not completely eliminate this noise -- it will still travel through any gaps in the insulation (around floor/wall joints, openings for plubming and ductwork, etc.) To reduce this "flanking" noise, wall and gaps have to be properly insulated or sealed with acoustical caulk.
As has been mentioned, the only way to reduce impact/percussive noise is to isolate the ceiling (as much as possible) from the floor above and the walls below. You don't have to resort to a "dropped" ceiling (ie, acoustical tiles) -- a traditional sheetrock ceiling can be hung from a network of hat channel attached to sound-isolating clips (the latter are attached to the joists, and use a variety of means to reduce the vibrations from impact). A double-layer of sheetrock will also help reduce noise. Finally, there should be an eigth-inch gap between the ceiling and walls (sealed with acoustical caulk), which can then be taped over with joint compound and corner bead.

errr.. I think I meant bass, like bass guitar, not base, like home base.... Whatever! oops!

Yes, there is a standard rule of thumb law about having 80% - 85% floor covering in apartments in NYC but this rule is not standard in every co-op or regular rental building. It must be specified in your individual building's By-Laws in order to be actionable. I own my apartment in a co-op in Manhattan and our By-Laws are very old and do not include this floor covering rule. Thankfully, I'm part of the By-Laws revisioning committee and know that the rug covering rule will eventually get added to the revised version. So you should check your copy of your By-Laws (or House Rules) to see if there's any such rule in your building. If not, bring it up with your co-op board! It's worth it!

el_nino has it right. Unless you can move out and your landlord is willing to spend many thousands of dollars there is little you can do.

I would recommend ear plugs.

Also, Diana, it's not so much that material changes break up sound waves, it's that different materials will absorb/reflect different frequencies.

Using RSIC clips you can actually hang a ceiling like el_nino describes without sacrificing more than perhaps 1/2 inch of height below the studs.

Actually, a thought that might help you here. If your landlord was thinking of refinishing the floors of the upper unit she could relatively easily lay down a soundproof sub-floor sandwiching two thin layers of standard ply and Audio Alloy's Green Glue. Then standard flooring could be placed on top (make sure the nails only go into the first layer of the subfloor!).

This would cut down on most of the impact noise, and it wouldn't matter if the other renters didn't like carpet.

I know it's aggravating...it's why I really endeavored to find a top floor apartment. Just putting in a word for upstairs neighbors in general (being one myself)...it isn't always that they're being inconsiderate. I have probably more than 85% of my floor covered, and it probably doesn't do a bit of difference. The floors creak so much that they annoy me. I am sure that my neighbor thinks i'm doing something wrong, but I'm just walking, in slippers, on rugs. I feel bad about it, and the only thing that makes me feel any better is knowing that my neighbor is doing the same to his downstairs neighbor too!

Bob Vila recently did a show where they soundproofed a baby's room ... they used a product called QuietZone that is basically a fabric sound-deadening system. (link in my name) However I agree with everyone above, it's the vibration between the floor and joists. The involved process that Diana outlined above is prob your best bet. I live under elephants (dancing elephants!) too and it is pure torture! And I am their landlord - doesn't change the futility of the situation.

Ok - the basement of my friends house + Musicians practicing + no insulation... equals=

First, whatever your ceiling is, insulate it. Take the sheet rock off if you can and start at the studs - I bet there is nothing between your ceiling and their floor. After insulating, you need to put up Foam that they use in music studios. That's the cheapest way to do it.

If the neighbors will stop being totally self-centered, and the landlady goes for it (which she won't), then you need to take up their floor, and put in Quiet Floor NP - a rubber underlay that goes beneath the flooring. That will stop the maddness. Otherwise, just move. it's not worth it.

http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/acoust_flooring/nuetra_phone.htm?d=16

We had people literally beating each other up above us, we called the cops, called DSS since they had a baby it sounded like they were abusing, and since the tenant was the son of the landlord, we broke our lease and left with no penalty. The embarrassment of having a trashy son was enough for the guy, I think. I know it was enough for us. Now we live on the top floor. Thank god.

I can't blame them for not wanting carpet. I wouldn't want carpet. It's much more annoying to clean than plain hardwood and it's a fairly major design change (and expense) that, on principal, I'd object to my neighbours controlling. That said, behaving considerately and wearing slippers rather than shoes is what I do. We've never had a complaint from our downstairs neighbour. In fact, he even once mentioned that he never hears us at all. I'd guess that part of it is probably due to it being an older building so it was not built on-the-cheap and actually has decent floors/ceilings.

Um, just a thought, but have you tried a really powerful white noise machine? I don't mean one of those dinky 'rain' noisemakers . . . Also, I notice sounds 'bounce' more in places with hard flooring.

I live below people who like to play ball with their annoyingly energetic Labrador at all hours. I notice the noise a lot more in my living room which has hard wood floors and no white noise machine.

I have an air purifier right near my bed, which creates a lot of white noise. Also I think the carpeting in my bedroom helps to stop the noise from 'bouncing'. I'll still hear the occasional really hard impact, but the white noise blurs out the majority. I sleep pretty well, but my roommate in the next room has a harder time. Also, the air vents in our bedrooms are smaller than the air vents in our living room -- not sure if that makes a difference. You can get air purifiers etc through different allergy control catalogs.

As someone with allergies and bad asthma -- the carpet thing can be a big issue. On the other hand, there ARE products that can help reduce the difficulty with carpets; they're just time-consuming to apply and maintain.
You might be able to get the landlady to carpet your apartment (if it's not carpeted already) and pay for a white noise machine.

I had this problem with my last apartment to the point I thought maybe I was going nutty. I finally learned to sleep with earplugs or I'd be awakened at night just by people walking around (you have to set your alarm super loud to wake up of course). Then the place was bought by a new guy who moved in upstairs. He put down new wall-to-wall in his place with double padding underneath. I barely heard him at all--heaven!

Good luck. I'm going back to renting soon and not relishing it.

I'd personally fight fire with fire...regularly cook something really stinky so it wafts up to their apartment. Maybe if you do something they want you to stop, they'd be willing to compromise and sport some freakin' slippers. I'm not the best negotiator mind you.

I'm not convinced carpeting the upstairs apartment would make much difference. All of the apartments in my complex have wall to wall and I can hear every single footstep.

One thing I realize now is the quietest apartment I ever lived in had really tall ceilings. I bet that's a significant factor.

Sara,

I don't think a rug will help with the bass. We have wall-to-wall carpet, on top of a concrete floor, and also have a neighbor like yours. I can feel the bass through the carpet pad, carpet, and my shoes & socks. The cover of our fan-coil unit also buzzes with the bass. The police have been called on this person in the past, (which obviously had no impact). But I think this person must have just upgraded the stereo system, and we now get to share in that joy.

Best of luck - let me know if you figure something out.

I went thru something similar. What I learned is that percussive noises are really hard to block out. Even with earplugs because they actually cause a resonation in your BODY if they are loud enough.
I lived below a stomper.

I got a sound pressure level meter. I recorded the peaks and found that in fact, the guy was voilating noise levels.

I used it to get out of my lease, after spending tons of time and effort trying to figure out ways to deal.

Best move I ever made. I can barely believe I ever tolerated it, even for a second, and the readings from a 30 buck level meter got me out of my lease.

Honestly, get some earplugs, and the classifieds. You'll find a better place. Noise like that is natures way of telling you somethings wrong.

;)
-janice

Diana,

Did you just screw the drywall into each space or actually frame out between each beam for the drywall? Very helpful. Thanks.

Unfortunately I have had big problems with this. Totally ignorant, stupid, mean people who only think about themselves doing whatever they want in their apartments because it's their birthright. Personally, if someone was telling me that they were being awakened in the middle of the night because of my footsteps, I would be absolutely AGHAST, and I would immediately put down shag carpeting with 2 inches of hard foam padding.

In my situation, I lived on the ground floor of a coop that had an 80% carpeting rule that it neglected to enforce. Sure, I could have caused a big stink over it. Meanwhile, I was not sleeping and I was literally going insane with rage. My upstairs neighbor paced back and forth all day long wearing shoes. I consulted a noise abatement contractor who typically worked on soundproofing nightclubs. He recommended that I put up a dropped ceiling, a layer of TR1 (or something like that), which is a heavy PVC noise barrier, a layer of sheetrock, another layer of TR1, and another layer of sheetrock under that. It was a sandwich of materials about 6" thick. Two weeks and $8000 later (this was in 2000 for a 600sf apartment), the job was finally completed. The result? It definitely filtered out the sound of voices, but I still heard every squeaky footstep! It was at this point that I realized that the vibrations were being transmitted through the interior walls.

At my wits end, I felt I had to do one of two things: offer to pay to carpet his apartment, or move. Although my upstairs neighbor refused my carpet offer initially, a month later he changed his mind. At this point I told him to go f&*k himself, and I had the place listed with a realtor.

The moral to the story is that there really isn't anything you can do (on your side) to mitigate the sound of footsteps. Period. And earplugs will not block really low-frequency sounds. The key is to make sure you find a building that is well built and has concrete or some kind of firebarrier between floors. So how can you tell? It's quite simple: look outside of the building. If it has a fire escape, it means that there is no masonry between the floors, which means you will hear your upstairs neighbors. Large prewar/castiron buildings are your best bets. Converted commercial spaces are good too. And any high-rise over 7 stories is a good bet also. As a rule of thumb, here are the buildings to avoid at all cost: brownstones, townhouses, tenements, buildings with fire escapes, and pretty much anything six stories or under.

I am currently living in blissful quiet in a large converted warehouse building built in 1896.

No one has mentioned a soundproofing technique a former coworker told me about: physically nailing floorboards and/or drilling holes/nailing. She said the process costs about $1000 for a 1 bedroom (Manhattan) size apartment. Apparently the idea is that lots of upstairs floor noise is the result of old floorboards and the fiction caused by wood rubbing against loose nails, etc. Sounds hard to believe but I think this is chiefly the problem where I live: After many years of total quiet suddenly the upstairs footfall noise became crazy. Like another poster, I do believe it is 90% unavoidable for my upstiars neighbor--it's simply that the building if very old and the floors/joists are creaky (I've heard floors holding up more furniture/weight can aggravate the problem).
I wear ear plugs at bedtime and run a fan. It's a bummer but at least this way I've made peace with the problem.

I read about this in Fine Homebuilding - no personal experience, but good to know about
http://www.quietsolution.com/

one product is QuietRock, a noise reducing sheetrock.

In SF you can sue the landlord for not ensuring you have "quiet enjoyment" of your property. But those lawsuits are really tough. You have to prove that the noise is above a certain level, procure witnesses etc.

In the spirit of Xmas, I'd get your neighbors some nice slippers.

(We have a similar problem. Daily aerobics videos at 7 a.m. for an hour. They made our windows rattle, they were so loud!)

The people who bought the apartment upstairs did me a big favor by removing their floorboards, putting insulation material between the joists, putting down a new base covered with felt or some other material and finishing it off with new flooring. The difference is remarkable. Not perfect, but much, much better. My next door neighbor, who is going mad due to a nocturnal elephant above him, is going to pay for the same treatment in his upstairs neighbor's apartment.

There is a great product called Green Glue and it is cheaper than using other soundproofing methods. What you would want to do is remove the existing ceiling, then apply Green Glue and drywall to the underside of the neighbors floor. The more layers the better, then re-finish the ceiling. You can also double up on the drywall here with another layer of Green Glue. You can find more information here.

http://soundproofingwithdave.com

Use liquid nails and the bottom half of Styrofoam or paper egg cartons and apply them over the entire ceiling with the points downwards. It creates an acoustic trap in the dead air spaces of the egg cartons, creates and interesting conversation piece, can be covered with other materials if you wish to hide them, is cheap and also works to block noise from your pace up. Works great for home theaters to prevent sound from bouncing around.

Oh wow I feel your pain.

"I've had fantasies about putting up something--a tapestry with quilt batting behind it, cork--to try and muffle her."

A pillow held over her face would work - permanently.

Me: ground floor renter in suburbs with NoiseBoy over my head. Rearranges furniture every night at 2,3, 4 a.m. after being out partying on weeknights. Has TV in bedroom (hate that, bedrooms are for sleeping, TV belongs in living room, den, or family room) yells on phone at all hours reliving his club antics while still high.

So I move out of suburbs into Manhattan, 4th floor walkup but its the top floor and no one above me. I'm not a kid and the stairs and the lugging of stuff is brutal. I have traded upstairs noise now for street noise in Harlem. Aarrgghh.

Move outta the City back to burbs asking management rep over and over again is she sure upstairs neighbors are quiet. She assures me they are. Upstairs neighbors wake up every weekday at 4:30-5:00 a.m.!!! Stomp around in workboots. Construction workers? Probably come home at 3 or 4 and take a nap Go out every evening and wake me up coming in about 11 or 12 every night.

I'm getting about 4 or 5 hours a night on the nights I can get back to sleep.

Now I know why guns were invented. I am losing my grip on sanity...