apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

Most likely you will if you are doing any electrical work or plumbing work. It also depends on the rules of your co-op about tearing down walls, structural or not. You should check first with your co-ops bylaws.

If you gotta ask...

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/html/applications_and_permits/permits_howto.shtml

Hi-Since you live in a coop, you may want to ask the board for a reference to a contractor who has already worked in the building. You will most likely have to satisfy the board, and a contractor the board already knows can be a good start. A good contractor can lead you though the permit process, but my first thought when I read your post was load bearing walls. These you cannot take out.

I'm just curious. Did you tell the board you were going to renovate during the approval process?

You may or may not, depending largely on your co-op. IIRC the key paragraph about needing a permit or not regards changes to entry/exit (not an issue here), major systems (i.e. large plumbing and electrical jobs, not just adding a few lights), and changing ventilation. If these walls don't define an enclosed room you may not.

Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: the co-op board will want blue prints, licensed architect sign-off, and DOB alteration permits before they will even meet to look at your alteration plans. Especially if you knock down a wall. Your alteration package is then passed to the building's architect/engineer, who has to sign off on them, also.

Check with your board on the exact procedure for your co-op. Information from your board is actually the first step.

From experience, make sure the architect you hire is on the ball. My alteration experience took months longer than it should have because my architect didn't get anything done in a timely manner. His initials are A.J., and he has an office in the Financial District.

Also, you may need to get inspections after the work is completed, depending on the type of alterations and what was found in the walls. Regarding the stuff in the walls, my neighbor directly upstairs was delayed for a month or two because there were unexpected pipes found by the contractor. I think they were unused gas pipes for turn-of-the-century lighting, but the building's architect/engineer still had to come out and look at them before they could be cut. Luckily for me, I did very similar alterations and used the same contractor, who just cut thoes pipes when he got to them.

My best guess is that it really depends on your co op board. I recently took down a half wall to open up my kitchen, it was clearly not a load bearing wall, everyone agreed upon that, but the building insisted that I get an architect to certify that no plans needed to be filed. THe building code in NYC is drafted in such a way that at least to my eyes, this is a real gray area. The Code isn't specific enough as to what wall removals you need to obtain permits for. In any case, we ended up having to file for a permit because I couldn't find a licensed architect who would certify that a permit wasn't needed. It isn't that difficult to get a permit, it adds 2 weeks or so on to your process, but once the architect actually prepares a drawing of what you intend to do with your renovation and files that with the Dept of Buildings, you can usually get the permit in just a few days (this depends on whether the architect will self certify the project or whether you will ask the Dept of Buildings to certify the project, I would suggest doing the former, it expedites things). The problem, and the expense really arises with the architect. By the time we had paid the architect to draw up plans (on what was a very simple job), paid the coop board's architect to review such plans and then paid the city filing fees, we were out close to $4000. Keep this in mind, it really adds up. That being said, opening up our kitchen transformed the apartment, so it was worth it. Depending on your board or super, you may be able to sneakily take down your walls even if you might have needed the permit. Perhaps it is just the lawyer in me, but I would advise against trying to go around the permit if it seems likely that you need it. If something goes wrong on your renovation (someone gets hurt while on the job, you hit a gas line, damage a neighbor's apartment, etc.) the fact that you didn't get a permit that you probably legally should have obtained will mean $$$ damages that you'll be responsible for. That being said, if you have an architect look at the job and he/she says you don't need to file a permit and the board concurs, you're fine.

Looks like you do actually need a permit, as you are falling under the "cutting away wall construction" bit.

Legally, you do need a permit. I work in the field, and while there's a decent chance that you can get away with not filing the work if your building doesn't require that you file with the city, there's always the chance that you'll get a violation for doing so.If, for instance, a neighbor decides to report that you're doing work without a permit, the Dept of Bldgs will issue a violation. You'll have to pay a fine and then file the work & get a permit in order to correct this. The amount of the fine depends on the amount of work done without a permit. If you have any busy-body neighbors, i would definitely recommend filing this!

We bought a coop in a large manhattan building and we are doing a gut reno and no permits were required. Our board did not require blueprints or architects or any other crazy stuff noted above by other posters. Just ask the board what they require and do what they ask. We took down walls and moved plumbing gas and electrical. Our board just wanted a scope of work (the estimate minus the prices) and a marked up floor plan showing the walls removed and the water gas and electric changes. GOOD LUCK!

I was curious to know the answer to this question, but all the response seem only to confirm my general impression that 1) legally, you usually need a permit; but 2)you really need to get a permit only if someone else is in a position to know what you're up to. In a co-op that would be your board and your neighbors. As Julie suggests, if your board is cool, you are cool.

Tip for loadbearing vs. nonloadbearing walls in tenenments and townhouses: any wall that runs parrallel to your beams is not loadbearing, any wall that runs perpendicular to your beams becomes loadbearing as the beams gradually come to rest upon it. This is because all the weight is distributed out to the side walls on the beams.
Your place looks postwar, however, so it might be different.

Julie,

Did your board say you didn't need a permit, or was it the city?

-Bobby

Julie it must have been your boards call that a permit wasn't required, because the city definitely requires one for a gut renovation. Also, not to cast a negative light on this, but if your board doesn't require much, then it's harder to know that what's been done by past tenants is up to code. it may be an expensive pain to get permits from the city, but at least it verifies (for the most part) that the work meets the building codes. Again, these may be convoluted and confusing, but they exist for a reason - mainly so that roofs & walls don't cave in. I deal with bldg co-ops and mgmt agencies every day and while the more demanding of them may make my day more difficult, at least you know they're trying to keep the building up to code.

I'm the one who posted the question.

The two walls forming an L shape are not load/weight bearing walls. I've been told by the superintendent that other apartments have removed them. At the time I had this conversation I did not bring up the permits. A bit later, however, I was told by a friend that you need to get a permit whenever you remove walls. I tried to find the relevant information on the Dept. of Building's website, but was unable to. My co-op requires a letter from an architect/engineer with the alteration application indicating whether the alterations would require more electricity. They also want you to get permits, if they are required. I'm trying to find out whether permits are required.

I haven't yet spoken to anyone who have altered their apartments in my building, but since I'm researching the matter, I posted the question.

Following up on Rachel's comment: Do NOT rely on your co-op board to tell you what you need in terms of the city. You need to determine that based on the work you are doing. If you are wrong, and caught -- you will pay any fines not them.
You need to determine if (1) you need a permit from the city, (2) what permit(s) you need (there may be more than one), (3) what approvals you need from your co-op board - a completely separate process - keep in mind that the review process with the board may take longer than with the city - ask neighbors, review your co-op docs for process
Do plan on any permits/approvals taking some time to process. There may be comments from the city/board that require changes to the drawing and re-submission. You should be able to get an estimate on time - this will help with arranging when the work is done with a contractor.
Good Luck.

This is what I think is going on with your board...
Ask your super if you can talk to the other people who've removed walls. If you can, ask them whether they got a permit. Chances are they didn't.
I suspect that your co-op board knows that they have already approved applications for renovations of this type without requiring a permit, but the city code is deliberately vague in many areas and your co-op board doesn't want the responsibility of interpreting it. If you do as your neighbors have done, you become the one who decided it's not needed, and then it's not their problem any more.
Just a guess, but you can check with your neighbors and then just do whatever they did.
But above all make sure both you and the co-op are also co-insured under workmen's compensation.

Julie, from what my contractor has told me, moving plumbing without a permit is definitely illegal. I am stunned that your building was so cavalier about this, and I have to agree that it probably does not bode well. A contractor could do shoddy work, knowing that no one who has a clue is ever going to inspect that.

For everyone wondering, the link posted earlier shows you where to look. The relevant subsection reads as follows:

Building Codes Title 27 subchapter 126

(a) For the purposees of this code, minor alterations or ordinary reapairs shall not include the cutting away of any wall, floor, or roof construction, or any portion thereof; or the removal, cutting, or modification of any beams or structural supports; or the removal, change, or closing of any required means of egress; or the rearrangement or relocation of any parts of the building affecting loading or exit requirements, or light, heat, ventialation, or elevator requirements; nor shall minor alterations or ordinary repairs include additions to, alterations of, or rearrangement, relocation, replacement, repair or removal of any portion of a standpire or sprinkler system, water distribution system, house sewer, private sewer, or drainage system, including leaders, or any soil, waste or vent pipe, or any gas distribution system, or any work affecting health or fire or structural safety of the building.
(b) Minor alterations or ordinary repairs shall include the repair or replacement of any fixture, piping or fauctes from the nilet side of a trap to any exposed stop valve.

--- end ----

There you go. You don't need a permit for "minor alterations or ordinary repairs". So if you wanted to move your sink without having to get a permit you'd have to connect your new sink location to the existing exposed valves. That's just about the only plumbing you can do without a permit.

Conversely, you can do just about any electrical work you want without a permit (though you'll need a licensed electrician if you know what's good for you).

Just to clarify what some people have said. Whether or not you need to get a permit has nothing to do with your co-op board. While some boards require DOB permits and others look the other way, it's not really their call to make. If you get caught doing work without a permit, you won't be able to tell the DOB that you had permission from your board.

Also, and this ia total neurotic, crazy architect pet peeve, can people please stop referring to "drawings" as "blueprints." Blueprints are a product of a reprogreaphic technique utilizing amonia and light sensitive paper that results in a drawing that is blue(these are also referedd to as "bluelines" by people in the trade). They have nothing to do with what is actually on the drawing, plans, elevations etc...

While we're doing this, "plans" means something specific, while "drawings" are a generic term. When I say that I have a plan drawing I am talking about a specific kind of drawing that shows a horizontal section through space as opposed to a generic set of documents decribing a project. As in: "I brought the drawings to the meeting where we reviewed the floor plans."

Ok, all done being cranky.

Dan

Thank you Dan,
I was recently showing some drawings to an old college friend (who is a historian, not an architect) and he kept asking me to show him REAL architectural drawings. And since some of the drawings were for design developement and some were construction documents, I was confused. It took me a while to realise he thought all architectural drawings had to be blue. HA HA. .... he's well educated, just not so smart.
For those not in the trade, most architects don't use blue lines much anymore. It is now cheaper to make large scale photocopies in black and white. It is also better for the environment and the health of printers. And they fade which is a bitch on the site. Last job I used them on was five years ago on a site in Texas. Bluelines have quickly become a thing of the past and I don't miss them.

Your board should tell you what they want - I'm taking out only two lousy divider walls and they made me hire an architect, adding another 5K!

With any permiting of wall removal, etc. you will also need an aspestos inspection. This is quick and relatively cheaper - $300.

Good luck!

J

following on the "blue print", "blue line" conversation...

both blue prints and blue lines use a diazo chemical process involving chemically treated paper and light. blue prints print negative image: white lines on blue paper, hence "blue print". blue lines print blue lines on white paper, hence "blue line".

pretty much every printer i know no longer even has a diazo machine because of the chemicals used. the machines use ammonia in large quantities and it is often illegal now to have suffient ammonia to run the old machines.

so we're stuck with either large format xerox type prints or plottings from computer files. it's healthier for the printers, for the environment and a loss that we can't get that great negative image on paper without greater cost.

oh, and get a permit.

Julie, yikes! A gut renovation in an occupied building, moving plumbing and electrical stuff without all the "crazy" permits?? I'm guessing you'll change your tune about the craziness of such details when, in years to come, you're living below some new tenant you've met once who's hired a crew of first-timers to knock down walls and turn off the bldg water supply for a few hours to relocate a bathroom. I couldn't sleep for three nights before the contractor started demolition in our apartment for fear that the whole building would collapse, and that was *after* an architect, the coop board and the city permit inspector had signed off on the drawings. May you be able to maintain your blithe disregard for silly rules without experiencing any bad consequences.