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I say try them out at the store....that's a lot of moolah for a chair with a fancy label on the bottom. Have you considered a replica?

There is a moral issue here, the rights of the Eames estate matter too. Why not find a cheaper chair by a less famous designer if you need a chair, instead of supporting the knockoff industry? Let Crate and Barrel hire their own designers and offer something new, they should be ashamed of themselves.

My dad has the Eames desk chair and it is very nice and comfy. Haven't worked on the computer much at it but just in general it's pretty dang nice.

Check out the AT classifieds - you never know.

I was looking for the same thing and one day i found it here for $150. The lady actually ended up giving it to me for free! It isn't the color i would buy myself, but for free it's great. One day I will reupholster it.

We have around 15 management chairs as well as 3 padded managment chairs at my work. The regular MC sits a little low and is only moderately comfortable. I greatly prefer the padded chair - the seat is much more comfortable and the aesthetic is a little less lean.

The CB knockoff is pretty uninspired. If the price tag is an issue, do some digging and try to find an original piece by a new designer. Unfortunately, I don't have any recommendations for this category. Sorry!

lloydalter -- The CB version isn't really a "knockoff", in the true sense of the word. Their chair is quite a bit different from the Eames's. It's "in a similar idiom", sure, but there's no rule that once someone has designed a chair with curved metal arm rests and a wide-ribbed leather seat, nobody can ever do anything kinda similar but must just pay the $1500 for the one original chair. If furniture design worked like that, there'd only be about 10 possible chairs out there in the world.

Additionally, you can't really copywright something like the basic design for a chair -- the Eames estate doesn't have to be consulted every time you want to make something out of bent ply or cast fiberglass. Estates and the like only really come into if it's an exact replica, or if you're trying to put the Eames name on the item. And it's questionable about whether it would be a violation of any kind of trademark even if the item was an exact copy (that depends on the particular case, and I'm not sure whether it happens to apply to the Eamses or not).

Scott, I say that if you like the CB chair for what it is, independent of its resemblance to the Eames, go for it. If you're buying it in hopes that you'll fool people into thinking you splashed out on an Eames management chair, why bother?

I think the two chairs are both priced appropriately. One is a piece of junk you'll throw away in a few years, one is a piece of furniture that you will love, and that will retain a good deal of its value should you ever decide to sell it down the line.

That being said, you can usually find used management chairs on ebay for a few hundred dollars.

if you want feel of an aeron and the look of an eames aluminum. do the eames aluminum in cygnus mesh. extremely comfortable and breathes well. (plus its the way the chair was originally designed to be). This lowers the cost of the chair to a little above 1000. Your eames chair will last a lifetime (not just saying it, it really will), and the cb2 will start falling apart within 5 years (not to say its an ikea chair, but quality wise its no where near made as good). hope i helped.

I think the Lider chair (http://www.eurway.com/chairs.lasso?itemid=3158&categorykey=90&subcategorykey=17&page=1&result=&-session=eo_user:452D64811670318BC2PmSvC9D0C2) at Eurway is a bit more true to the original than the CB chair for about the same money. It also looks more comfortable due to the greater degree of "undulation." lol

opoponax--
When the subject is knock-offs, I think it has a lot to do with intent... can you honestly look at that CB chairs and *not* think "Eames Management Chair"?

And yes, you can get a design protected from reproduction.

But the samples you give (fiberglass, bent ply) are techniques of production, not of design, so that argument doesn't really hold up.

ps: The Eames Management chairs are SUPER comfortable. The camel colored leather one was just on sale somewhere... let me see if I can dig it up.

I sat in the CB knock off the other day. I thought it was really uncomfortable.

If you can find it, the Knoll sapper chair is much more comfortable, and a similar style.

Good choice hejiranyc. While i appreciate the Eames chair and would love to have one, the Euroway chair is much more in my budget. Sorry to support the "knock-off" industry, but 1200 is steep.

Given that the shape of the seat is dramatically different, the shape of the arms is different, the relationship of the arms to the back is different, and the proportions of the base are different in major ways... yes, p(too), I agree with opoponax that it's possible to look at the CB chair and not think "Eames knock-off."

If that's a knock-off, they should have shown the knocker-off a photo rather than just providing him with vague rumors about what the original looks like.

I found mine on the corner of Wall and Water. 25$ cab and it was home.

"Let Crate and Barrel hire their own designers and offer something new, they should be ashamed of themselves."

any designers want to chime in?

Or you could buy a used one: http://cgi.ebay.com/eames-aluminum-group-management-chair_W0QQitemZ330167202049QQihZ014QQcategoryZ20496QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

"When the subject is knock-offs, I think it has a lot to do with intent... can you honestly look at that CB chairs and *not* think "Eames Management Chair"?"

Technically, the question isn't whether somebody would "recall" or "thinK" the Eames chair, it's whether there is a likelihood that consumers will be confused. Your description is a much lower threshold.

"Intent" is a factor (generally known as "bad faith"), but only insofar as it contributes to the conclusion that consumers are likely to be confused.

Herman Miller Inc. received a trademark registration for the upper portion of the chair in 2006, not including the black leather:
USPTO link: http://tinyurl.com/2xcmm4

Interestingly (to me), they have not sought protection for the leather or the banding, but only the underlying curve of the upper aluminum frame (in the above link, see "Amended Drawing").

Given that narrow protection, it's no wonder that Crate & Barrel can produce these chairs given that the upper frames are relatively distinct (in my non-legal opinion).

For the record, there is almost certainly no copyright or design patent protection for the Eames chair (expired if either ever existed/was sought given that the chair was designed in the '60s).

*rolls eyes* Okay, well I think those who berate those who don't have a spare $1,200 in their pocket to spend on designer chairs should also be a bit ashamed. Why should those of us without mountains of disposable income be forced to forgo good design on principle? If we like the Eames chair, why should it be off limits to us? (Assuming, of course, you can't find them cheaper via Craigslist, EBay, etc.)

If the Eames Estate can't make a cheaper model with cheaper materials for those of us who can't afford the Cadillac version, I say it's fair game territory for knock offs.

I tried an Eames Management chair at Room and Board a few days ago and found it surprisingly uncomfortable. I was all ready to like it too, as I like most Eames chairs.

Regarding all of this discussion about patents and designs... I was under the impression that, after a certain period of time, perhaps 50 years or so, that these designs/patents become part of the public domain. Sure, I suppose the Eames legacy/foundation could authorize one particular company to be the "official" manufacturer of the design using specifications developed by the Eames, but I don't think that precludes someone else from coming along and making an exact replica. As such, I don't think there is anything shameful about copying a design, especially if it aims to achieve what the Eames had originally envisioned- making design affordable to the people.

I'm LOVING this discussion.

Okay, so regardless of copyright and trade dress infringements what no one has brought up is that these are two VERY different chairs.

The Eames management chair is a sling chair - the leather or fabric is stretched taught between two aluminum frames and thus creates a kind of hammock effect. I find them SUPER comfortable because you've got no hard parts poking you in the back.

The CB chair is a solid backed chair that has simply got ribbed leather on it (presumably to LOOK like the Eames chair). Sitting in the two chairs will give you two different experiences.

If you really like the look of the Eames, and want to stick with the Eames name try ebay - they're always showing up, mostly in fabric, for about $350-$500. I think you'll be have a much richer and longer experience with the true eames.

And just for the record on knock-offs:

I agree that many of the prices of the furniture we love are prohibitive, and therefore many people feel justified buying a knock-off. But, what you have to ask yourself is what exactly you're buying (in either case)

Real design isnt just about how something looks.

In a licensed original you are buying a design that consists of many factors: aesthetic/looks, materials, craftsmanship, comfort, intent of the designer, and yes - name recognition.

When you buy a knock-off you invariably sacrifice some of the above factors. In order to keep from being sued knockoffers (is this even a word?) have to change the design - sometimes its in minor areas, sometimes significant. Most knockoffs are cheaper because inferior materials are used, and because corners are cut when the pieces are produced. Huge numbers of knockoffs are coming from China these days, a country long known for unsafe labor conditions, and more recently, for sending poisonous toys to American children. Once you start to delve deeper you start to see why original things cost more: because they are inherently better.

I'm currently sitting in an Eames chair from 1947. Its got a few nicks here and there, but otherwise its a solid chair - because it was made well, with good materials. It was also a bought on craigslist for under $200 - proving that good design doesnt have to cost a fortune!

I think it's one thing to buy used seating made of wood, plastic or metal. But I'm kinda skeeved out with the thought of buying used fabric/upholstered seating. After all, one never knows where the previous owner's hindquarters have been, or what types of "residue" they may have impregnated into the fabric. Call me paranoid...

You can find knock offs of Eames and other disgners at (whiteonwhite.com). The stores are here in NYC. I have purchased a couple of thindgs and have no complaints. They have a copie of that chair. It looks wasy better than the one from crate and barrel. It is only $395.

I have a replica of the Eames Chair made by a great company called Zuo modern, and it cost me about $375.00 I can honestly say that it is one of the most comfy pieces I have ever had. I sit in it for a good 3 hours a day and love every minute. I also carry Zuo modern furnishings in my store and everyone has been surely satisfied! Good luck!

Buy used or vintage. It's not like there aren't thousands upon thousands of actual Eames chairs in existence. Look on ebay. Look in classifieds. You'll find one for a few hundred without too much effort.

With a piece like this, I would never buy a knockoff. Such a piece is an investment. A foundation piece that, ideally, you'll have forever. Think of it like clothing--sure a really good cashmere sweater or leather jacket is expensive, but it'll last forever, always look good, work with practically any outfit, and you'll get years of good use out of it.

That C&B knockoff is particularly bad. It just looks cheap. It's really more like something I would expect to see in an old West Elm catalogue. Like bad dorm room furniture.

If you can't find or can't afford the Eames, go for something completely different that you can afford. I'm sitting in an antique oak swivel chair because it was affordable, attractive and is far more comfortable than one might think.

I always wanted to post on one of these morality of knockoff threads while it was current!!!

Anyway, if I remember correctly, Charles died in 1984, and was a widower (might be Ray--my point's the same). The licensing fees going to the estate are fringe benefits to members of the lucky sperm club. I'm not going to cry for them.

And Herman Miller has made a business decision that they'd rather protect the brand than sell a lot of product--hence the outrageous markups and marketing almost exclusively to the trade. Lower the prices 60-70% or put your products in some regional high-end furniture stores. Voila! No more competition.

There was a person singing the praises of the quality of the real thing. Get real! This isn't mirrors for the Hubble telescope--it's a f*cking office chair! And it's not aluminum group chairs are even comfortable--they are, in relative terms, rigid- and flimsy-feeling. You can get a way more functional from Costco for $100.

YMMV

I'm by no means against people buying high end or big-name furniture if that's what you want, but Modfan, I unfortunately don't think that buying a licensed name necessarily means what you're getting will last 50 years. I know I've splashed out on "investments" of that kind before which have turned out not to be worth it in the long run, and that I also have clothes from H&M which have lasted 8 years.

When I worked at MoMA Design (home of lots of big-name home design product), I can't tell you how many people came in on a weekly basis to complain about some item licensed by a hot designer which fell apart after like 2 months. Just because it was designed by Jasper Morrison or Philippe Starck or any of those guys doesn't mean it's actually any good.

One more thing: one of the reasons Eames chairs last forever is that they are almost exclusively for looking at and not sitting on. If you want to know how a HM office chair that actually gets used in offices holds up, ask someone who works in a legal office or brokerage full of Aerons how many people he knows who have had broken seat frames. The only reason an Aeron chair has a service life of more than 6 months is that it has a 12 year warranty.

We don't do knock-offs.

Theres no moral dilemma here. Knock offs are for people who dont want to spend or cant afford to spend the money for the original. And just because its original doesnt mean its made any better. Case in point, the Eames lounge chair has defect in where the base breaks away from the actual chair. Its a very common occurance and very expensive problem. $2900 for a chair that could break on you. As long as theyre not trying to pass it off as an original then I think its fine. All the knock offs Ive seen say Eames style. And to some its worth it. $1200 dollars for an original chair thats eventually gonna wear out or $1200 that could buy you 4 knockoffs that will look brand new everytime you replace it in the same amount of time. What if you decide you want a different chair? The licensed stuff is not gonna bring you that price on craigslist or ebay. Maybe the originals will but not the newer licensed stuff. Theres just too much of it out there.

So--
Has anyone had an aluminum group chair reupholstured? I'm not sure if it would be more complicated than any other chair, but I'm interested. I've had my eye on a couple of old ones, and while I know reupholsturing would be cheaper than a brand new one, my guess is that it might not be much cheaper. Anyone know?

You know, this Eames estate business gave me a thought as to why their being dead matters to the situational ethics:

Do you feel it is more important for Paul and Ringo to get their share of the $0.99 (iTunes) or for Yoko NOT to get John's (bittorrent)? Clearly, as long as Paul, Ringo, and/or Ringo's wife are still alive, the equities lie with them and iTunes is required. If those three were wiped out by the chicken flu, and Yoko lived, only a monster wouldn't steal the music. Their kids don't enter into it, except that if Yoko was dead, the pro-stealing argument is even stronger because it would be Sean getting the money. If a serendipitous set of circumstances led to Julian getting John's share, that would change things 180-degrees.

If they were selling things that they were trying to pass off as authentic or actual licensed stuff for cheaper then yes. But they obviously dont try and pretend that they are authentic. Just like cover bands who make a lot of money(and there are a lot of them that do) playing shows. Besides if the designers estates havent done anything to stop it(that Ive seen), why should we care?

One thing I noticed with a lot of barcelona and eames chairs is right off the bat they aren't that comfortable to sit in since the leather is too fresh - Trying one out in a store mightn't give you a fair impression - ideally sit in someone elses that they've had for a while so you get an idea what it's like in use. I got an imitation since I can't justify a vintage or original with a new house to furnish, plus there aren't many in ireland so they cost as much as you guys pay for a new one - it wasn't great to start off with but after a few uses it's loosened up a good bit and it's great. Likewise I tried the barcelona chair in a furniture hop and found it pretty unforgiving, I tried another beaten looking one in a clothes shop and it was great.

Gozer, what are you smoking?

i totally agree with goldtoof's point. i was surprised by the above assocations of good design with workmanship, quality, durability, resale value, morality, etc. all of those are contingent.

It surprises me every time one this topic comes up that people get so huffy about knockoffs. If Target, Ikea, Crate & Barrel, West Elm, etc. weren't out there knocking off "high-end" designers, a few people in New York would be able to find od cheap furniture on Craigslist, but people in non-rich parts of the country would be doomed to live in design hell of overstuffed couches and Wal-Mart curtains. Thank God for knockoffs!

Oops, had some editing problems there ... I meant "old cheap furniture" and "non-rich people in most parts of the country."

Oppoponax - I agree that being a designer name doesnt always equate with quality. I would say that with the Eames it does. I've owned furniture of theirs from the very beginning (1947) to the last year they produced the shell chairs (1993) to a plywood lounge chair produced this year. I've also worked in design retail - on the new side, and on the vintage side. In my opinion you wont get as good quality with a knockoff - plain and simple. (I'm speaking Eames here - Starck is another animal altogether).

As for the benefits of the 'lucky offspring' - the Eames estate is working diligently upkeep at the Eames House in Pacific Palisades, they are also working to chronicle in detail each iteration of the furniture produced. Its not just money going to bankroll trust fund babies - the money goes to preserve the work and legacy that these people did outside of the furniture arena.

I had a certain lounge chair that broke repeatedly. Before I owned it, it broke repeatedly for my grandfather and prior to that for his sister. Super comfy and a real PITA at the same time. I wish I'd kept the ottoman though. The ottoman was no problem at all. :0)

I don't want to keep pretty from the impoverished masses. Maybe we should consider it improper for the rich to purchase the knockoffs and let the other 99% of the population do as they please.

There is something kinda tragic about people dictating to others the morals of purchasing, um, an office chair. If I didn't know better I'd think all this garbage is generated by either [1] those who already paid through the nose for "authentic" designs and want to protect their investments or [2] others who are trying to profit from the nonsense fetishization of authenticity.

Eames himself somewhere is getting a chuckle.

One more point: just because we all want something doesnt mean it should be affordable. I 'want' a Lamborghini, but that doesnt mean that they should drop the price, nor does it mean that if I buy a Ford Pinto and slap Lamborghini body panels on it that I will 'have' a Lamborghini.

Ok, now all I want (and all I can think about) is a Pinto with Lamborghini body panels.

Best looking replicas I've seen so far for 1/2 the price....

http://www.moderndose.com/index.php?cPath=21_31

"Let them eat cake!" I've been hearing that a lot lately. Bummer.

I mean, somewhere between modfan's "should have" and everyone else's "want," there's a middle ground where mere mortals must make compromises between the ideal and the possible. I bid you best wishes on having money, modfan, or at least a non-stop stream of craigslist finds. I have this horrible fear that you sit in a studio apartment, with nothing but your $200 Eames chair and everything else K-Mart particle board. I really hope that's not the case. There's some pretty cool knockoffs at the Ikeas and Targets of the world--they aren't a quarter as good as the real things, but they're only a tenth of the price.

Warning: totally self spamming: I'm running a new blog on knock offs: http://knockoffs.olya.org/ and I'm going to link to this thread, and possibly some comments. I hope you guys don't mind.

Interesting discussion that was ripening on this website for a while... the issue of cheap versus name has been standing here for a while, afaik (I've been reading for about a year).

FWIW, I don't think people would buy the "knock off" to misguide others into thinking they own an Eames; I think the visual and physical satisfaction of some of the pieces of furniture under question is what they desire.

I own 2 "bertoia" (questionably knock offs - I bought them in local antique stores for ridiculously low prices - either they have been broken before, or they are knock offs) chairs, and after our honeymoon I was actually happy to see them. I get a great satisfaction out of seeing pretty and functional things, and that's my reasoning for knock offs (price) and desirability of specifically something that is reminiscent of a designer piece (visual satisfaction).

Sorry for the long rant and the self link, guys. Wanted to pitch in on this.

Re: "Theres no moral dilemma here."

Um, I am guessing you are niether a designer nor someone who deals in intellectual property. If you were, I suspect you'd have another take on the subject.

And I ask all of you who find knock-offs palatable: Do you wear fake Gucci watches? Carry fake Coach bags?

Yes, there is a fine line between knock-offs and counterfeits, but I just think it funny that furniture design is up for grabs "if I can't afford the real thing."

And kellylc, if you can't afford a Mercedes Benz, do you slap the hood ornament on your Mazda (along the lines of brittanykate's thinking)?

And wende- I'm disappointed you don't find these two chairs more linked visually than you say you do. Find it hard to believe, actually.

If someone wants an Eames chair then he/she needs to pay their ridiculous prices.

There are many good chairs, of a variety of designs out there.

My favorite store for fantastic, supportive, well-built office chairs is TopDeq http://www.topdeq.com

They're not inexpensive but I've had one for 8 years and it still functions as it did on the first day. I just bought a second one for my home-office.

Eames schmames.. pay the price if you want a fancy name. Or grow up and escape the clique b.s.

Patrick (the other one), there really is no moral dilemma unless the copycat manufacturer actually brands their wares as the real thing. In that regard, your comparison to Gucci sunglasses and Coach bags is misguided; the knockoffs intentionally try to pass as the real thing.

And I am sure that you buy all of your clothes from Gucci, Prada, Marc Jacobs, etc., and that you never buy clothes that seem "inspired" or similar to theirs, for fear that you are infringing upon their "intellectual property." The reality today is that everything you see on the ready-to-wear racks was ripped off or derived from some haute couture designer. If anything, that is even more dubious than the copycat furniture, because at least the furniture designs are largely within the public domain.

What it basically boils down to is that most of today's authorized manufacturers of these classic modern designs have intentionally built artificial scarcity into their business by drastically limiting production runs, drastically limiting the points of purchase for their wares, price fixing and, of course, charging exhorbitant prices. These companies did not innovate or design these items. In this regard, I almost view the purchase of knock-offs to be an almost honorable pursuit, since it means I am not financially subsidizing the conglomerates that strive to restrict high design for the rich or winners of the sperm lottery. And shame on the Eames, Jacobsens and Nelsons (er, rather, their heirs) of the world for not forging alliances with more mainstream, affordable design purveyors, e.g., Target. Not only would they have made more money (via selling greater quantities), they would completely eliminate their knockoff competitors. As such, the "design community" are solely to blame for their knockoffs.

Patrick(the other one). Im guessing you are a designer. Like I said before, if the estates arent pursuing the issue like the music or fashion industry are, why should we care. And you probably own licensed replicas of everything. Thats good, you could afford it. Some people cant. You probably wear designer jeans or any other jeans that were first made popular by...wait for it...LEVIS. Doh! That means youre wearing a knocked off pair of jeans! Theres not much variation on the original design. What a moral dilemma.

Funny about the fake exotic car analogies. I saw a Saturn Sky roadster at Safeway the other day with Ferrari badges. Some poor wannabe was really kidding himself.

And the original Ferrari Daytona in the Miami Vice TV show was a fake--that's why they eventually blew it up. Ferrari didn't want them parading a fake as the real thing week after week.

Hey Sean G. What does your "grown up" opinion think of this Topdeq design?


http://www.topdeq.com/topdeq/product.do?catid=us_45&prodid=pp_Alice