apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

IKEA actually uses very nice hardware, ours are Blum glides and hinges (I think they change the manufactuer occassionally). I've heard the Miele is the absolute best D/W. We have a Summit counter depth REF and we love it. We went custom stainless steel on our countertop from a kitchen place in Chinatown and it was cheaper than any stone or Corian and is virtually indestructible.

I agree with most of what Maxwell has said. We just finished our kitchen reno a few months ago and we went with Ikea cabinets, which we absolutely love (the askome ash line). That allowed us to splurge on the cabinet and drawer handles, silestone countertop (stellar night - in the leather finish, which is awesome) and the appliances (mix bosch and ge profile), as well as a cork tile floor. We still got the job done for about 20k (including the contractor's fees) and we are thrilled with the result.

personally, i wouldn't worry about the brand name of the cabinets. i don't think it's common to people to ask about that. i have never made such an inquiry, nor has prospective buyer of my renovated co-op. brands might be a bit more relevant on appliances, since the brand name is prominently displayed on them.

I disagree regarding the Ikea cabinets. I lived in an apartment where the owner had installed brand new Ikea cabinets and countertops before I moved in. After one year of use the knobs and handles started coming off as well as the hinges. The drawers came off track and kept on disassembling. I tried everything to repair them but the holes and indents in the mdf construction were impossible to patch up or glue. The butcheblock countertop also warped. If you use the kitchen a lot (as I did) or plan on living there for more than 1 year, I would invest in real wood cabinets.

we recently renovated our kitchen using ikea cabinets and wood countertops. we splurged on cabinet hardware from simon's. i find it kind of liberating to know that if we scratch or damage a door or drawer we can replace it for under $50.

our bosch dishwasher is fantastic and extremely quiet. i cook all of the time and i'm thrilled with my GE profile oven and kitchenaid french door refrigerator.

i think there is WAY too much emphasis placed on super high-end appliances these days. think of all the other things you could buy with the thousands of dollars you'd save by getting more mainstream brands. i have a great source for appliances if you need one.

I don't think any new cabinets are real wood. Aren't they all mdf, even Poggenpohl?

You HAVE to think about resale in my opinion. Unless you're going to live there for 15+ years or you're rolling in money. A 1bdrm in Chelsea is a lot of money and I think it's smart to protect it.

I personally think Ikea is nice but if you can imagine selling in 5years you need to consider if you can sell a million (?) dollar apartment with ikea cabinets that may be showing their age.

I personally couldn't buy into the Liebherr bcs of those weird freezer drawers. I did a sub zero and love it. And I got real wood cabinets built custom for about 10k. I think fewer but nicer cabinets is the way to go.

I agree with putting your money into appliances and getting Ikea cabinets. I think the installation is important, the Ikea hinges and drawer hardware are actually very good quality. The problems Nec describes are caused by being installed poorly. I haven't had any issues.

I concur with all above – IKEA cabinets are a great way to go. You could easily pay A LOT more for cabinets that are of no greater quality or style than the IKEA cabinets. They also stock a great selection of hardware; and the hinges and drawer mechanics are top notch.

Definitely save on the cabinets: there are loads of nice cheap ones. Try a contractor, see what his cheap stuff is like and compare the prices to IKEA, you might be surprised (I was! Super-cheap). CHeck the hinges and stuff, though. Then get nice but not necessarily amazingly expensive appliances (I have a bosch pullout oven, DW and fridge) and splurge on the countertop and the floor. A good quality countertop makes the whole kitchen look more expensive

I also agree with the Ikea cabinets suggestion--Just hire a good contractor to install them (NOT a do it yourself job!)

I just redid my kitchen with limestone floors, marble counters and Ikea cabinets. I got the ones with the glass and metal framed doors. Three cabinets were around $300 including hardware. I priced the same 3 cabinets (same dimensions, door and almost identical look) to be custom made at a high end showroom in the A & D building: over $10,000!

i find it hilarious that we manhattanites RARELY cook, but need to have to have sub-zero, garlano, viking and miele in our apartments.

however, you DO get what you pay for with these appliances and it is definitely a GREAT idea for resale.

i don't think most people are as concerned about the cabinets, as long as they look good.

As a kitchen designer, here's where I weigh in. My theory is this....I have a 5 year "limit", so to speak. If you feel you will be in your home more than 5 years, then spend more money and express yourself in the space (aesthetically) without thinking about resale. If you feel you will be out within 5 years, then obviously, be more conservative with costs and aesthetics.

Forget, mostly, about brands. People rarely have a real issue with what brand cabinetry you have in your kitchen, it probably won't drive any meaningful decision on their part. For the snob appeal group, it can be a factor. Some of the smallest, little known brands of cabinetry, have the best quality, for one reason, because they're not spending tons of money on marketing, etc.

I carry cabinetry with recognizable names and some with names no one would ever know, very small companies, depending on what the requirements are. The best combination is a small company that is very automated with their machinery. This way, they will do customizations/non standard things, and have a good price point, and probably be better quality than comparably priced bigger names.

Get a little education, just a little, in terms of cabinet construction so you feel confident of a quality level, and you'll be in good shape.

Re appliances, as long as you don't go super low end, it's not a big factor. Also, don't feel you need to spend up for future resale.

Again, IMO, it has a whole lot to do with how long you're going to stay there. It just makes sense to "go for it" if you're staying there longer and be conservative if you're not.

I guess I'd be looking at the warranties/service provided by these brand name appliances (or the dealer).

Shopping around a few years ago...all appliance lines have become much more style conscious - even the SEARS Kenmore line!

Personally, I'd go no-name on the appliances and get great cabinets. From the standpoint that if an appliance turned out to be a lemon, I'd rather replace a $300 dishwasher than a $700 dishwasher.

The other issue to think about is making a smart investment based on your building/area. If your building is in the $1,000/s.f.+ range, buyers will be more likely to expect high-end appliances; by comparison, when I sold a unit in an UWS building more typically priced at $700-800 s.f., my kitchen remodel (from a 1950's sparkly-Formica special) definitely contributed value but GE and Maytag were fine.

Basically, if you make improvements to your unit that are WAY out of the scale of the rest of the building you are unlikely to get back the full value - if people have to walk through a cruddy lobby to get to a palace, they aren't going to pay full palace prices. At the same time, if your unit is very outdated in a building that is becoming more and more upscale, higher quality will be important to getting the highest possible price.

Don't assume that the most expensive appliances will be solid state. They need service at least as often as any others, but it seems to cost more when they do. If you can, talk to someone who repairs appliances.

Right now the broiler and oven are out on my Wolf range (this is the second time for the broiler). The repair man said this is a model from before the current company took over manufacturing. He hates working on them, but thinks the newer ones are good. However, he has nothing good to say about Viking ranges and their repair histories.

My husband wants to buy all the appliances for our second home from Home Depot. He might be on to something.

Resale matters to me but this really depends on your plans.

My advice is to price out the whole job using several scenarios. Labor is pretty much a fixed cost and will likely be the single biggest expense. You either need to update electric or not, no matter what cabinets you buy. This was helpful to me when I renovated. While the price difference btw low and high-end cabinets may seem outrageous when looking at it on a line item basis, on a project basis it may not be as big a deal as you think.

Personally? I did high-end cabinets (Smallbone, lowers only) and high-end appliances (I love freezer drawers!). But I also used a lot of lower-end options: wood countertops ($300ish, instead $3000ish), Chicago faucets ($200ish, not $700ish), basic sink ($200ish, not $700ish), and painted backsplash area instead of tiling ($30ish total, not $500+ish). It's all about balance and preferences. I love cabinets. Sinks are not my thing.

You may to do just the opposite, as Maxwell suggests, with Ikea cabinets and lovely, expensive details. Just price the whole job out and then decide.

I just bought a new home that needs a complete kitchen renovation and I am def. going with better appliances and floors (slate) but using Ikea cabinets. People tend to change cabinets but keep appliances.

Save on the cabinets, splurge on the appliances.

And/or buy Energy Star-approved appliances, whihc may become a bigger issue at resale in coming years, and will save you some money on the way.

Not sure where they fall in the price spectrum, but I hear good things about the GE Monogram series.

There is typically a rule about not upgrading your home past neighborhood, but that's an impossible rule to judge in Manhattan.

Jane, please would you reveal your appliance source? Thanks!

Skip the Poggenpohl.
They are a nightmare. The stuff comes in wrong, needs to be redone, is missing pieces, blah blah blah.
I've had it installed on a project or two and even the repair guys they send over repeatedly (independent contractors) said that this is not unusual & they are often making these sorts of fix-it visits.

I have a subzero fridge and i would never buy another one. It does nothing exceptional and was twice the price of every other fridge. PLus it is very hard to open from time to time. There are plenty other fridges for which you can get a stainless door or panels to match your cabinets. Save your money!

the problem that i've run into is that the more minimal i try to be, the more it costs. the best designs for conserving space happen to be the high end products. i have a liebherr fridge (display model-saved bucks) and it happens to be cabinet depth and 30" wide but does not have to be built in. this allows for greater flexibility in your design. maybe you want to stand it alone in a small space next to your cabinets? with sub-zero for instance you don't have this option for the same size, plus you spend a whole lot more just for the name.

i don't need a full-size dw, so what are my options? the fisher & paykel dishwasher allows you to take up only one drawer space and still have another drawer below it. if your'e dealing with a limited amount of kitchen space this is a great option but big bucks! i bought mine at a factory outlet (discontinued model).

these are just a couple of examples where, in my opinion, brand name happens to equal great quality and just as important the perfect fit for a small space. at the same time, especially with the fridge, if you were to choose between the biggest brand name, sub zero, and this one, you are really getting a just as good and arguably a better product for much less.

maybe it will just be a matter of time before some of the moderately priced companies start with these types of designs. kenmore has already started with the dishdrawers but i think they only come doubled up.

i guess it has to do with what the market place demands. bigger seems to = better in many american's minds as we all know.

now will i get my money back when i go to sell? that's another story.

the brand name of the cabinets will mean almost nothing to resale, except that some may feel the ikea cabinets are "cheap" and that they'd need to be replaced. i don't feel this way myself, but real estate is an ugly world.

the brand name of the appliances will have more of a positive influence, but don't get carried away just for the name. go for quality not name recognition and you'll be happier save a bit of money and still have a good resale value.

btw,

how rude of me, sometimes i just get right down to business.

Congratulations on your purchase D!!!!!

best,

art.

You pay for what you get.

In our first house, we installed IKEA cabinets. While they have improved, they are still not equal to high-end solid cabinets. They definitely do not stand the test of time (they last just as long as their warranty, so after 5 years, they will be half worn out -- not great for resale!).

We redid the kitchen in our current house 4 yrs ago, and had them custom-built by a cabinet maker. However, he used stock cabinets, and merely sheathed them in our wood of choice. Were I to do it again, I would pay MUCH more attention to the actual cabinet. If you get something really good, and you do eventually sell, the fact that the cabinets stand the test of time is a big selling point. Personally, I would investigate Henrybuilt cabinets.

In our first kitchen we bought an Asko dishwasher (at the time it was better than a Miele); we replaced it with a cheaper one when we sold, and are still using the Asko in our home today, 15 years later. Good appliances last, and well designed ones will still look well designed 20 years later.

This time round, I would definitely get a Miele dishwasher, and as for fridge, I love my GE Monogram (half the price of a subzero, and much, much better). We have a Wolf range, but if I were to do it again, I would love to have Gaggenau wall ovens.

I am using a Viking Stove came with a townhouse we purchase. It's more than 5 years old but working very good still. But every time I see the AGA in stores, I really feel I want one. It's so classic looking. Does anyone own their gas cooker? Is it hard to use?

appliance source:

dial-a-brand
800.237.3220 516.378.9694

they're in Long Island so i did most of my research online. the prices included delivery.

I find it hard to believe that someone's IKEA cabinet hinges fell off afetr a year. IKEA uses top of the line BLUM with Blumotion, EXACTLY the same hardware (EXACTLY) as Poggenpohl. It is the hardware of choice for high end cabinetry. IKEA makes good cabinets. The melamine is a little cheap but they need to do that to keep it light and cheap for shipping. I often post on here when people ask about IKEA cabs. I had a cainetry company and am a woodworker, and IKEA makes a good product that was frankly hard to compete with.

Yes, Dial A Brand, ask for Barbara!

I used the Kraftmaid Venicia cabinets in a renovation last summer. They're fine; quality seems good. Because it's a new line for Kraftmaid, you don't have the customization options you get with their other lines, however. I also know people who've used the IKEA cabinets and had their contractor "beef them up," whatever that means.

Libeherr is a great refrigerator. I really think it's worth the money. Miele has a wonderful oven too.

I am in the midst of planning my renovation now and have gone back and forth on these questions a few times. I might be preaching to the choir, but here are my thoughts:

1. Range: my fiancee always wanted a Wolf, but we realized we couldn't live with one in an NYC-sized 70 sq. ft. apartment without sweating constantly. So we are going with a Jenn Air, which seems to be the most attractive and best performing of the upscale residential brands. Keep in mind how hot the professional models can get and remember most of us can't vent to the outside to really get rid of the heat.

2. D/W: only two options for us - those with 18" wide models - Miele and Bosch - and Bosch's rep was the best. We cook often, but only cook for more than 3-4 people once a week, so we can save some space here. There is a premium on the 18" size.

3. Refrig: we were going to use the Sub Zero 700 series - mostly for name recognition and for the drawers, but decided the $2000 savings in choosing Liebherr could best be used elsewhere.

4. Hood: don't forget hoods - these can be pricy. Since we needed a microwave as well we are using a GE Profile combo unit - again, space savings.

5. Cabinets: I have been having a hard time here - my first designer was supplying cabinets himself and not giving me exactly what I wanted - something sustainable and cleanly attractive - so I fired him. Instead, we are planning on using henrybuilt (they will provide design services and counters as well). More expensive to be sure, but in general, this is the most expensive line item. Ikea's quality is questionable, and to take something custom from a contractor or designer requires a lot of research into the materials and to be used and durability. I find most contractors like to build cabinets themselves because they are a great profit center.

Final thoughts: I have not bought my appliances yet, buy MCKB has been incredibly helpful. Also, I think appliance brands are a marketable element of an apartment - I have seen many listings mentioning appliance brands, many fewer, if any, mentioning cabinet brands.

would someone like to comment on the word; 'seed'?
lets start with your kitchen... then timeline using all 'your' energy.
how wellness are you feeding...and at what consuming field is your kitchen the sources of "the cure".

'well' the kitchen is the weight of water and a sources of most fire related accidents.

Dr.Suess.

did i also mention the 'true cost' of renevating a functional kitchen to attempt to build a comfortable bed bath suite.

how seedy, shady and sunny of me.

I used Kraftmaid Venecia in my remodel. I really like them, but I do think they are pretty much indistinguishable from the Ikea cabinets my friend used. (Her kitchen has high-end appliances and high-end handles, and no one realizes they are Ikea cabinets.) Her cabinets are lasting well.

I will say that if you notice anything wrong with Venecia upon delivery, call them immediately and stop unpacking that item. I was surprised to find that their customer service is not very good, and they will definitely try to blame any defects on you--so don't give them a reason. When I spoke to my consumer rep and tried to get him to come by to look at a faulty drawer (as I was told that he would do), he was downright combative. That experience alone would keep me from purchasing these cabinets again.

That's a good point...make sure something is in writing about manufacturer's defects, that repair/replacements will be made if necessary. It also is wise to be present at the delivery if possible. The highest level of involvement you can have while things are going on is important, to catch any issues early enough. Some cabinets come boxed, in that case, look for outward signs of damage on the box and find out how long you have to declare damage. Me, I stand at the back of the truck when I have cabinets delivered so I can see right away if anything is coming off the truck damaged, a first line of defense. Not 100% foolproof, but it's up there.

D,
a couple more thoughts. since i'm in the midst of a reno myself i think they may help you out.

the liebherr fridge, you can always take it with you because it's not built-in to the cabinets.

now-the cabinets. i can tell you i've looked at everything. i mean everything. i've had drawings done by at least 4 companies. german, italian, one local cabinet maker, a popular one in ny advertised on this site, and an all aluminum cabinet manufacturer (spain). believe it or not, with the exception of ikea, they all end up in the same ballpark. keep in mind, with many of the expensive european companies you are getting a truly finished, trimmed and essentially tailored product. everything from the sink, to the backsplash wall, to the countertops, inserts if you want to go overboard, all fit together seamlessly. and these companies work off the specifications of the good appliance companies, sub zero, liebherr, gaggenau/bosch, miele, etc. with ikea you may have to modify certain things. there's nothing wrong with that but it depends on what kind of look you are going for, seamless or modified.

my thought was, when i am lying in bed i am looking directly at my kitchen through the door. do i want to look at something that i'm not happy with? same goes for the living area, it is shared with the kitchen area. so if i'm sitting on the couch i'm looking directly at the kitchen. so i took the plunge and made the decision to consider my kitchen cabinets to be furniture just like everything else.

how much did i pay for the kitchen? the reason i don't want to name the brand is because i don't know whether i'm embarrassed or proud to admit that when i asked them, they confirmed that they hadn't completed a project yet for as little as it cost me. i knew what i wanted and eventually got enough courage to give them my budget and they came as close as they could to meeting me on it.

it's still a lot of money but once you know what these companies are really capable of doing, because let's face it, they will try to max you out with the most expensive finishes and accessories, just like a car, you have a better idea of the playing field.

so, do i think name brands make a difference with cabinets? it's a little different than the appliances but you've seen what's out there, what's your favorite? can you get it with your budget? if it happens to be a brand name then that's what it is.

D,
i just had an afterthought. when i first started looking around for cabinets, about 2 years ago, i went to poggenpohl first because their showroom is in our design center. i really didn't even know what our budget was at that time so when the salesperson asked me i said $10,000.00. she said, "oh, well, you can't get a poggenpohl kitchen for that, but i've heard that ikea has some nice things." so now you know who i didn't go with. if anyone turns you away with a $10,000.00 budget, they're not worth it. she didn't even know the size of my kitchen. they could have come close. then again, all sales people are different.