apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

Depends on the lunacy level of your landlord. I've found some landlords to be a bit irrational and crazy, esp. the older ones who have owned their buildings for many years since back in the day when real estate was much cheaper. They see it as "their" building and nobody but "them" gets to decide what to change. They also tend to be incredible cheapskates.

Maybe if you offer to do it yourself AND arm yourself with some information from brokers as to how it will improve the value of the unit, if your LL is as tyrannical as you say.

OMG, why would anyone cover that up in the first place?! Is there a reason why drop ceilings in this case would be sensible??

What is wrong with your landlord?! The original ceiling is so much better than what you've got going on now. I'd be very tempted to take it down too.

Check your lease to see whether you can make any changes to your space - you could get into trouble otherwise. You might also want to talk to your landlord, explain the increased value of the original ceiling, and offer to do the work yourself...

Hope it works out.

well cat, the reason people usually cover things up is when they're ruined somewhere. cover up. the ceiling is prolly ruined somewhere and they "fixed" it by covering it up with beautiful ceiling tiles.
good luck with this one tenille.

I had this problem in the kitchen of an apartment that I had rented, I painted the gridwork (the parts that hold the ceiling tile in place) and the ceiling the same color, then I found some plug in clip on spotlights and used the tracks (gridwork) to hide my cords. This made sort of unique modern grid system to spotlight artwork, work surfaces, dining area etc. (I kept the removed ceiling tile under the bed to replace when I moved.) shh...don't tell anyone.

This worked for hanging pendant lighting as well.

Rob

Silly, silly landlord. I've never dealt with one of these dropped ceilings before, but I don't suppose it's something that can be taken apart and reassembled before you move out, is it?

pc is probably right. its the only reason i can think of why the drop ceiling was installed - there's probably some severe water damage or possibly fire damage on part of the ceiling.

you might want to pull out all the tiles to see if there is any damage and how extensive before talking to your LL. you might find out its a bigger project than you planned on.

Just do it very carefully and secretly. Make sure that the final product looks stellar and when you leave simply say:

"It was allways like this...don't you remember...it was one of the reasons I was so drawn to rent this space..."

Just be careful if you offer to do it to increase the rental value, that he doesnt try to jack up the rent on your next renewal - Suggest working with him either to agree in writing a schedule of increases or sign a 2 year lease to make it worth your while.

Also could it have been installed as soundproofing after complaints from above or below? Take it all out to find out...

It is beautiful, definitely worth the effort!

Before you go through the trouble of removing the drop ceiling, buy a lead paint kit (about $5), and do a quick test on a few different areas of the tin ceiling. Installing a cheap dropped ceiling is one way landlords avoid dealing with lead paint (which, if it's flaking, is a significant health hazard).

As far as the drop ceiling, old-style tracks tend to bend during removable, but the tracks aren't that expensive... so if any bend my guess is you could replace them (or bend them near-enough to straight again to reinstall). Be especially careful with the ceiling tiles, they've changed over the years, and those are harder to replace as a single (and you don't want to be buying all new tiles to reinstall).

If the tin ceiling tests negative for lead paint, by all means, I'd take down that dropped ceiling! What a great find...

If the drop ceiling wasn't put in to hide something on the original ceiling it might have been installed to gain a fire rating between floors. The back of the tiles may say or have a UL marking if this was the case.

If you decide to take it down and need to put it back up in the future the cost of installation (including materials) is usually 2-3 dollars a square foot. I live in north carolina so it may be a little higher in NY. Also while you can save the tiles to reinstall, it is almost always impossible to save the track in good enough condition to get it back in and have it look ok. The track is significantly less expensive, more in the 50 cents a SF range.

I second the comment on checking the entire ceiling prior to approaching your landlord to confirm there isn't a major problem the drop ceiling is concealing.

Good Luck!

Get rid of it now!

Thanks guys - I learn so much from this website!

If it tests positive for lead, I wouldn't worry too much about it if you don't have children in the house, assuming you will be putting the drop back when you leave. The main problem lead paint poses at this point is kids picking up and eating the chips.

If its really something you want to deal with, you can also paint it using an encapsulating paint.

hmm...this has inspired me to peek under my own kitchen drop ceiling, which i've never liked but never thought to investigate. i hope i find something gorgeous and not something scary!

Thanks for all the suggestions! I actually just started peaking under the rest of the tiles and did find some significant damage to one area where the ceiling is down the the wook, which is in one corner of the room. But I love the idea of taking down one side and installing lights along the tracks to highlight art work (such as the pictures) So I think it'll be a half and half kind of room when I finish.

I would ask your landlord. My old landlord didn't give a crap what I did as long as it didn't ruin anything. He might enjoy showing it with the tin in the future.

As a renter, you must have written consent from the landlord stating that you may remove and restore the tin ceiling. Also, attach photos of the ceiling as it is now. If you don't, expect frustration from start to finish, and perhaps a court date when you move out, a few ulcers, and lots of posting on AT regarding how screwed you feel by this whole ordeal.

Trust me on this one.

Landlords don't play around when it comes to these things, they prize their horrible wallpaper, shag green carpeting, and nasty smoke-stained ceilings (not that yours are, but you know what I mean). Some become so amazingly offended that you, a mere renter, would come in with design ideas to improve THEIR property. God forbid you swap out the rusty brass and wood chandelier for a modern pendant!

But, crappy no-taste landlords abound. Not all are this way (sorry posh taste lovin' landlords), many do have a clue, but from the looks of this ceiling, I'm not sure if yours does. Either that, or the work was done at a time when tin ceilings weren't viewed as an object of beauty. Think 1985 when the world was one giant mauve floral pattern with black lacquered headboards trimmed in brass and mirrored ceilings above beds and wet bars. Ick.

Anyway, the almightly written consent needs to clearly state who is responsible to bear the costs involved. You also need to specify what will happen to the current drop ceiling, that you plan to store it until you move and you will reinstall it before you move, or that the landlord will take the drop ceiling and when you vacate the premises, the ceiling will remain 'as is', in it's newly restored tintastic state.

Either way, everything must be clearly stated, on paper, signed by yourself and the landlord, dated, etc. If you used a realtor to locate the property, they should be copied on everything. Just for the heck of it. You're better off cc:ing the world on this one so everyone knows about your tin ceiling.

If your landlord doesn't like the idea, you can try to help them understand that the property value may increase if careful restoration of the ceiling took place. Also ask WHY the idea is opposed, for instance, maybe half of what you're seeing in your above image isn't on the entire ceiling or is badly damaged. You wouldn't want to rip it down and see that 50% of it isn't even there so you need to reinstall the drop ceiling all over again OR you have to locate vintage tin, spending mucho buckos on a project that you'll never truly call your own.

If you know some real estate agents who can back you up, ask them for an opinion when the landlord present. In other words, if you can prove property value increases with a tin ceiling, then by all means, prove it!

Let's all hope your landlord is on deck with this, the ceiling is as perfect as you imagine, and everything works out for the best. But, bottom line: COVER YOUR BUTT IN WRITING.

Holly

With all due respect, Dave, lead paint is ingested in more ways than just children picking up the paint chips. Vacuuming alone breaks up the paint chips creating lead borne dust. It's a health hazard and as such needs to be treated with some caution, period.

Rucy, you are incorrrect. I know it sounds nuts, but the only hazard with respect to lead paint is the actual eating of paint chips. The dust, etc. from lead paint is not a significant health hazard - if it were, then you'd see signs all over construction sites about lead paint, they way you do when there is asbestos.

Rucy - I'm not suggesting one should just ignore it if it tests positive. However, its also not a cause to lose one's head over. Much like asbestos, the fears of lead paint are often overblown, with most of the severe cases of health problems related to exposure having occured decades past.

In the case of lead paint, the principal concerns arise when children aged 0-6 are living in the unit. Onetime exposure to lead is NOT the problem. If your kid eats a paint chip, its not going to cause problems. Rather, its continuous exposure, whether through injestion of peeling paint or airborne lead dust, or through consistent chewing of trim or corners painted with lead.

If the lead-based paint is intact (i.e. not peeling), simple cleaning of surfaces with water and TSP should suffice for in place management. As I also noted, you can also cover it with encapsulating paint, if you want to go the extra step.

What you don't want to do is go and remove it. Much like asbestos, the principal problems arise from rehabs and remodeling that remove the materials and create concentrated dispersions of dust.

And again, exposure risks are much, much lower for adults. Contrary to popular belief, you aren't going to go crazy like Nero from a onetime exposure to lead.

Take the advice of someone a few posts up and get it in writing.

I'm a landlord and really don't care if renters want to improve the unit (Hey better for me wen they leave, right?). But what does suck is when renters want to do all that improvement work and then move out and decide "Hey, I did all that work, I want to take such-and-such with me," and leave nothing in it's place. I know this usually happens with smaller objects like doorknobs and showerheads, but it makes us landlord's paranoid. Who the hell knows what you'll do if we give a little room for improvement?

So, I'd say get an estimate, get some exact directions, or the number of the professional who will do the work, and show all of this to your landlord. Chances are he or she won't care, and may be grateful- but with the damage they may want the drop cieling back after you move.

i think you should take down the tin ceiling and take it with you when you go.

I know this is not the main topic of this thread, but I feel compelled to respond to the comments about lead paint hazards. First of all, lead paint in good shape on a ceiling should NOT be a hazard, but Julie is absolutely wrong that the only source of hazard from lead paint is ingesting paint chips. To help try to set the record straight, here are a few quotes from the Environmental Protection Agency office responsible for toxic substances, including lead paint:

"Lead from paint chips, which you can see, and lead dust, which you can't always see, can be serious hazards"

"Lead dust can form when lead-based paint is dry scraped, dry sanded, or heated. Dust also forms when painted surfaces bump or rub together. Lead chips and dust can get on surfaces and objects that people touch. Settled lead dust can re-enter the air when people vacuum, sweep, or walk through it."

"If not conducted properly, certain types of renovations can release lead from paint and dust into the air."

"Federal law requires that contractors provide lead information to residents before renovating a pre-1978 housing:
Pre-Renovation Education Program (PRE)
RENOVATORS have to give you a pamphlet titled 'Protect Your Family from Lead in Your Home', before starting work."

All this and more information is available at:
www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/leadinfo.htm#hazard

Sorry for the long posting, but I thought it was important to clear up any misunderstandings.

I'd call the landlord (no paper trail...yet) and ask him if you can take the tiles down and if there was a reason for putting them up with in the first place. If you get a positive response, follow up with a letter. If you get a negative response...and plan to live there for several years...do what you want. Yeah, I know, not fair to the bad taste'd Landlord...but life goes on and it's more of a tragedy to leave the acoustical tiles up.

It's almost certainly got several coats of lead-based paint. Lead causes a lot of health problems, so you should be concerned, and your landlord absolutely should be concerned.

Be extremely cautious about removing the panels, as there will be lead-based paint flakes in there. DO NOT scrape or sand and allow any paint to be chipped, flaked, or become airborne dust. Use really good primer and paint to encapsulate any old lead-based paint. Lead poisoning from renovations is not uncommon. Lead testing is easy, so get checked.

I like the idea of leaving the grid, and putting the panels back when you leave. Some people put in dropped ceilings to save a bit on heat, and there may well be water damage up there. I'm a landlord, and if you leave it the way you found it, or better, no complaints.

Julie/Dave: I lived through lead poisoning issues when I was a renter, so I do know you're wrong (no offense but I'll trust our doctors over someone on the net), but my advice was pretty simple... I simply encouraged Tenille to test, as a precaution, and no matter how you try to amplify the argument I still believe that's a reasonable thing to do in an old place (where something beautiful, that you'd think would be highlighted, has clearly been hidden from view). I agree, there's no point in getting anxious about it (nor did I encourage that, Dave), I just think it's reasonable to check it out... after all lead tests only cost $5.

Rucy,

I never said not test. As far as your doctors, I can't speak to that, except to add: primary care physicians only know so much, and you'd be surprised how often they are subject to the same misconceptions as the general public.

I'd also add that I'm a real estate developer, and I've done a fair bit of multifamily rehab (mod and gut) in the Northeast, so I have a fair idea of both the regulatory framework around lead-based paints, as well as knowledge of the real hazards as distinct from the unreasonably paranoid ones.

Lead paint, when treated with a fairly modest amount of care, is no more dangerous than half the substances under your average kitchen sink. Just because you could hurt yourself if you drank a cup of bleach, doesn't make the bleach inherently dangerous to have around you. As long as its not peeling, it can be easily managed in place, as I noted, with a little TSP and, if needed, some encapsulating paint.

I just found out that that kind of ceiling is illegal in a residential unit. So I'd double check with the city and then get your landlord to take it down. If there is lead paint then that would be his responsibility as well.

Dave, again, I simply gave my best response to Tennille which was essentially: test. No offense but if you want to find someone to argue with (or to lecture), find someone else, I have a better use for my time. Best wishes. Tennille: whatever path you choose, good luck, I really love those old tin ceilings.

Josie - which kind is illegal? The styrofoam ceiling??

I believe it's the Tin that's illegal. Would explain the drop ceiling. Also, I was told drop ceilings are put in as a way to control heating costs. It sounds like this situation is getting complicated. If your landlord's a booger I would sadly let it go. It's not worth it. Save it for when you have your own someday.

Here's ANOTHER thought about that. Let's say the tin is illegal, and let's say you love the look, and let's say you DON'T want to discuss it with your landlord.

I've seen plastic lay-in fake tin ceilings, which of course would not give you back the high ceiling that the original would, but would probably have something to be said for it, nonetheless. Then, you could (hopefully find someplace to store the old kind of ceiling tiles until you do move out.

Click on my name on this post to see at least one company. But you could Google it like I did and find others.

1. Tin is not illegal for residential as far as I know in NYC... tons of fancy brownstones and renovations have them restored or installed new ... Are you thinking if the drop ceiling tiles have asbestos, which I belive became illegal in the 70's? But I would check the housing code for your city and Certificate of occupancy if you are worried.
2. I ahve tin celings and I LOVE them. By all means reveal these if you can. It opens up the whole space. But yes get the info and the estimate of home much work,and the scoop from the landlord in writing. Maybe have a nice in person conversation with them first if they tend to be the types to be overwhelmed by paper? After you talk you can follow up with a detailed written proposal...
3. You can buy fake tin ceiling panels or wallpaper at Home depot to cover up any spots, but if there is water damage, you may want to check and make sure the roof doesnt have leaky spots.
4. Dont be afraid to paint the ceilings to renew them with white paint I did it myself , it wasnt so bad and livened the whole place up!

Thats said, I myself have dropped ceilings that I didnt bother to remove in my hall way and bathroom, it was just too much work to get al the way up there and deal with the extensive damage . I covered the ceilings in fabric instead.
good luck!

People consent to live in rooms with drop ceilings? I thought "sterile office-like environment" was a bad thing for ones home. Who knew?

Drop ceilings are illegal in residential spaces. My nieghbor just had
her entire ceiling replaced by our very stingy landlord, because she busted him on this fact and he knew it. It didn't comply with zoning regulations, so he had to take it out. I don' t know anything about the legality of tin, but I will say that I've seen in apartments much more frequently than a dropped ceiling. Hope this helps.

If you don't want to lock horns with your landlord over the legality of dropped ceilings, and you like the look of the tin, perhaps you'd be happy removing only the tiles (or the ones you want to remove) -- leaving the framed grid for visitors to "discover" the tin. I've seen commercial spaces (Bally Fitness?) where they took that approach, and it tells a nice story. You could just replace the missing tiles before moving out.