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I agree you shouldn't trust the contractor entirely. And you shouldn't trust me, either. My personal experience is that small tiles in a shower leave too much grout to be cleaned -- or to spawn grunge that is difficult to clean. I'm going in the opposite direction with my next shower, using panels of Swanstone for zero grout and minimal upkeep. (I must add that the small tiles are beautiful and did much better around the sink.)

I would go with large tiles to avoid all the extra grout lines. But if you like the look of small tiles, go for it. After all, you'll be living with the bathroom, not your contractor.

your contractor is lazy or inexperienced. I work in architecture, and it it well known that generally the glass mosaics are slightly more tedious to install. and they tend to be more expensive. he most likely doesnt want to put in the labor to get it right and correct.

I like the idea of dark grout—easier to keep looking clean.

Also, Wall mounted vanities should be installed with proper support behind the wall.
you dont want your kid leaning on it and it falling off.

I grew up with a bathroom with beautiful, tiny tiles and they are a pain to keep clean. (Happily, this was in Mexico where labor is cheap and even middle-class families can afford live-in help.)

If you enjoy housecleaning or can afford to hire professional cleaners on a regular basis, go for it! You deserve the bathroom of your dreams.

If not, then consider other, more practical options.

But don't do it just because the contractor is pressuring you. You cannot trust his agenda.

I love the look of small tiles myself although I understand the concern about cleaning the grout. I recall some design guru suggesting larger tiles for that reason and using the smaller ones for accents and/or borders. Not sure what your contractor's problem is with them perhaps they're more difficult for him to install properly? However I don't think smaller tiles will necessarily make the room seem larger. It may just look visually "busier" depending on your tile design. If you haven't yet definitely check out some places you like where they have been used.

tileme is right. the tiles need to be aligned really straight otherwise you notice aligment mistakes really well. plus

frankly, if your contractor is balking or not familiar enough with this material, i would tell you to choose to either switch materials or contractors. you don't want him to install something he is unfamiliar with. it can be a TOTAL disaster (i've seen it before as I work in interior design).

Thought I'd share a few tidbits about tile I've learned recently: I was in a kitchen showroom recently w/my friend who works for construction management company that does high-end restaurants. When I oohed over their big 24" tile floor he shook his head and said that they only work on super flat, super hard substrates - otherwise they crack. Also, he says that no matter what, tile grout will eventually break down (happens much faster w/small tiles and in busy commercial kitchens) so they always do major leak-proofing below.

I've never heard of Swanstone. What is it?

(I like the idea of using small tiles in areas that are easy to keep clean.)

Small tiles can look great in a small space. I think you should stand your ground and get what you want.

Have another conversation with your contractor. See if there is some reason that he feels small tiles are more difficult to work with (they are not, and they are more forgiving of uneven walls). He may just not have used them before.

I just renovated a 5x7 bath in brooklyn. I wanted a jacuzzi, which had to be special ordered at 30-inch width. I used 4x4s, similar to the stone look you show in your photo. They just finished the grout, and I am in LOVE with this tile!

We got the same reaction from a contractor -- it's a matter of laziness. Trust your instinct on style and get a contractor willing to satisfy your request.

if the tiles are too large in the shower, they won't be able to be pitched at angle to allow for the water to go down the drain.

additionally, i don't think that small tiles are necessarily a lot more work. we just got some beautiful ones and they come on 12 x 12 sheets... it's not like he's putting them up one at a time!

Don't listen to your contractor when they tell you stuff like this. I'm an architect and I do this all the time and when I just started out I was fed all kind of bull by contractors who were either lazy, incompitent or both. Who knows what their reasoning is but contractors love to beleive that they're the only ones who know what they're doing on a construction site and it's easy to be intimidated. The important thing in your renovation is to get great results that you're happy with not to make sure that you're contractor likes your bathroom. He never has to use it.

I used small glass mosaic tiles in the bathroom of my very small apt. in Manhattan, and they look great. The contractor was willing to do them, but did mention that they're tricky when you have to cut them...they're glass and can shatter a bit, and may need to be pieced together at the edges. I used them halfway up the wall. In the shower, because of the cleaning/grout issue, I combined them with regular tile. I'd be happy to send you some photos...I'm just not sure how this site/blogging works. I'll check back later to see if I can upload a photo.

Also, I just sketched the whole thing out, and the contractor got the vision.

Good luck w/ your project, I'm sure it will come out great!
Heather

In a small bathroom, small tiles will be more in scale of the room. The other option is to go really big, but those are less forgiving on uneven surfaces. In a small bathroom, the one thing I'd avoid is something that's "in between," neither big nor small. It'll throw the scale off. One other thing, no matter how big your wall tiles are, it's best to use smaller tiles in the shower floor. The slope to the drain is easier to accomodate, and they provide more friction for your wet, bare feet. Big smooth tiles are slippery.

I am actually renovating my bathroom too, and am about to purchase tiles. I have decided for both cost and upkeep, to use the glass tiles (Walker Zanger Sandalwood gloss mantra glass tileis the front runner (http://www.walkerzanger.com/wzproducts/shopexd.asp?id=1862)as an accent- a border across the walls (a horizontal stripe), on the side of the tile in tub (as tub apron) and as accents among the floor tiles.
The rest are going to be 8X8 or 6x6 (haven't decided yet) of a neutral porcelain tile such as Daltile prairie beige (http://www.daltileproducts.com/series.cfm?series=16&next=67&pg=12&rm=4).

I am hoping to get the best of both worlds with this combo.

Good luck!

kb - Swanstone is a solid surface material like Corian. One usually sees it as counter tops or even sinks, but they also make shower bases and walls. The material is much sturdier than the thin plastic shower enclosures of cheap renovations. Tile is certainly more beautiful, but my new shower is in a second home where there is a lot of humidity. I don't want to spend my time there scrubbing moldy grout.

http://www.swanstone.com/products/showerWallsFloors/

We chose small round ceramic tiles, aka 'penny tiles' for our bathroom floor and glass mosaics for our kitchen backsplash. The contractor groaned a lot and tried to discourage us. Luckily my architect father-in-law wouldn't let us acquiese because the tiles look great.

You have to manage your contractor otherwise he will manage you. Also, don't ever trust your contractor's design ideas. There is probably an ulterior motive to whatever he's telling you.

I've been debating this myself, because I have an enclosed shower where I have to battle mold constantly. I am getting glass mosaic tile put on the outside of the shower and on the adjoining wall, but I'm not sure it's the smartest choice inside. There are glass subway tiles, but I was also going to do hakatai and would have to go find something else that coordinates (and I'm sure it would be much more expensive that hakatai)

I was debating whether white square tile would be too abrupt of a change (probably, but I'm kind of dreading the cleaning factor)

I still want to know the name of that hydrogen peroxide cleaner someone used. I know the FSBO in Williamsburg used hydrogen peroxide, but that doesn't work on my current (probably unsealed for years) tiles.

Thanks for the info, Debre!

I love that the architects and homeowners respond here with the presumption that contractors are lazy and incompetent for expressing an opinion. After several years of doing this work contractors will have seen countless bathrooms from start to finish. Having worked in tile myself, I can tell you that it's not uncommon for homeowners to be surprised that the finished product is so different than their original concept. So it's worth considering a contractor's advice.

That being said, I don't know where your contractor is coming from exactly. It might be worth it to go to a showroom and talk to some folks who may have a broader background in installation and design.

Our bathroom's shower is entirely paved and walled with small mosaic white tiles with random red, maroon, and light grey tiles scattered throughout. The tiles go all the way up to the ceiling, which is pretty darned high in our building. It looks like a beautiful, timeless spaceship. Every morning I feel re-reinvigorated by my shower and my showering surroundings. :)

BUT: it's completely and utterly a matter of taste. I've seen mosaic tiles look like crap (especially when the 12x12 squares are misaligned with one-another... there are few more glaring errors than one GRID misaligned with 4 other surrounding GRIDS, it's like an askew piece of graph paper, so make sure your contractor is using a really good tile person!!!). I've seen marble tiles look even worse. I've seen both boring and exciting, visionary versions of each.

Good luck with your choice, and remember: do what YOU like.

PS: Nice mosaic tile custom blend tool: http://www.hakatai.com/XQ/ASP/1.mosaic_blends/QX/CustomBlends.htm !!

our contractor did such a sh*t-ass job that it our small, romanesque tiles actually look like they were, in fact, done in roman times. godamned train wreck in our godamned train wreck house and my godamned train wreck life

I have a tile contractor who is trying to give me advice on what I have specified. They aren't designers and usually just don't want any extra hassle when it comes to their work. Keep your original idea, it will be beautiful. There are so many products out there that will help keep the grout clean don't worry about that esp. because it will be freshly installed and shouldn't be too hard to keep on top of.

I have had two experiences with small tiles.

When I re-did my small bathroom, I used very small black and white grid tiles. They were cheap industrial tiles glued on to sheets. I was very afrid of being able to see all the edges of the sheets. My contractor used a meticulious tile guy and you cannot see a single seam. You really can't tell where one sheet ends and the next begins.

This small tile experience made me excited to use small glass tiles as my kitchen backsplash. I used the same contractor, but he had a different tile guy this time. He charged extra for using glass tile, claiming he had estimated for ceramic. This tile guy was not as good. Many seams show in my backsplash and I was very disappointed. Since the tiles were so expensive, I just live with it. And I learned to be more specific about tile layout. I will demand to be on site when the tile is installed next time.

Thank you all very much for your input. I think I will stick to my original plan and talk to the contractor again. I will also make sure that I am on site for the installation.

I will send pictures once/whenever this is actually done!

thanks again.

Having just discussed tiles with a architect/contractor-friend, sent this discussion to him and here's some views from the contractor side:::::

I would push for small tiles, or a combination of small, medium and large. Often 12x12s are way overused due to their ease of installation and lesser cost.

When installed correctly, smaller tiles usually look better because more effort has gone into their installation. In a 5x7 bathroom, once you subtract the area of the shower (3x3) you end up with 26 square feet or 26 12x12 tiles. That is a lot easier to install than pennys or anything smaller. For a shower floor the tiles should be smaller in my opinion to create a rougher surface to stand on. I would probably not spec 1x1 glass for an entire bathroom. Maybe the whole shower, but not the floor too. It might lose its interest if overdone.

Glass is also more difficult to install for two reasons.
--One, you can see through it so the thinset or mortar has to be white and perfectly troweled. Otherwise you will see the voids.
--The second problem with glass is that it cannot be mesh backed like other small tiles because you would see the mesh. So instead they glue a piece of water resistant paper to the face of the tiles. The glue is water soluble so it can come off prematurely. Also with the paper there you can’t see the tile to make sure it is laying true, without voids, and you can’t clean excess thinset out of the grout joints before it dries. That may be why the contractor is balking.

Our old neighbour did her 2nd (not master) 5X7 bathroom in glass mosaic tiles from Bisazza and Bisazza had a training and certification program for contractors to install their tiles. That was a few years ago so I'm sure there are many more qualified or skilled mosaic tilers now but the point is that you do need to be more skilled to install such tiles.

BTW, her bathroom looked stunning with varying shades (from quite light to dark) of blue glass tiles on the floors and walls, a full width shower "stall" instead of the bath - also tiled with the mosaic on floor and wall, a wide porcelain sink that floated above a wheeled cabinet and the Starck2 or 1 (can't be arsed to go to the duravit site to find out) hanging toilet. The 1" square size seemed to fit the size of the room perfectly.

We actually used the same guy to do our master bath (do a search for jamie pup and bathroom on this site) and we used 18" limestone tiles which was a complete contrast but worked also.

I'm in the same boat - I have a squarish bathroom with a largish spa occupying the back left corner and the sink in the foreground right (It's in the Netherlands so the toilet is in a different closet, err...room). It's got that cheap white cold blocky tile, which surrounds the room top to bottom and around the base of the spa.

I'm thinking of redoing the tile around the spa bottom in large grey/blue-slate tiles (where 1 slate = 12-16 of the large white tiles) then doing smaller tiles, greyish and slightly beveled, around the tub area.

The big question is should I do it around the room, or just in the bathing area? And then, how high? Currently it's top to bottom - I think that much small tile would be insane though if it wasn't a proper wet room...

i wouldn't presume your contractor was lazy or incompetent because of his comments. he's just looking forward to potential installation problems. i do that all the time. nothing wrong with suggesting options with fewer installation issues.

i'm an architect and have spec'd glass mosaic tile for various projects. they are a bitch to install. if they are true mosaic tiles, coming loose, it is very labor intensive to set them and difficult to maintain the straight lines. if they come mounted, generally, they come mounted with paper on the face of the tile, so that it's almost impossible to get them on the wall straight and level the first time round. to avoid the cutting problems, the glass will very often shatter, you have to size the room to avoid cut tiles and that's an exercise, let me tell you.

having said all that, and adding the grout/cleaning issue, they look great when they're installed correctly. the tiny tiles and all the grout lines will tend to make the room look smaller...but the luminous and semi-transparent quality of the tile will counter that a little bit.

the key is finding a tiler who has experience with glass tile.

Yeah, you should have seen what our guy did with those glass mosaics. I wish I had some pics to show you but they were perfectly flat, level, straight etc. He was exceptional and you do need someone exceptional to do glass mosaic as david l has said.

I learned a lot about glass mosaic tiles from all of you. If you don't mind me digressing a bit here, I have question on bath room design. I have a square 8*8 windowless bathroom that i am planning to renovate. I am going to reove the bathtub and install a walk-in shower. I was wondering if i could install a jacuzzi, as well as a walk-in shower in a bathroom of that size. I would appreciate any helpful suggestions. Thanks

We are doing a bath renovation that is eerily similar -- small size, removing tub for walk-in shower, and using glass mosaics (vidrotil -- and yes, I found them -- the co. is NOT going out of business, just a lying distributor, so we are using the US distributor). However, I was concerned about grout cleaning, and so we are using the mosaics only on the long wall, from the entrance to the far wall of the shower. The other 3 shower walls (the 2 walls and the separation between the shower and vanity) will be back-painted glass.

We too are getting a wall-mounted sink and toilet (Starck3), with vola wall taps. For a seemless floor, we would like to get dalsouple rubber flooring (unpatterned) in white.

Amy,

I work as a designer for Daltile, and most of our glass tiles are mesh-mounted and painted with a white or silvery coating on the back so you can't see the mesh and so the color pops. Lots of other brands do the same thing (partly because many brands use the same glass manufacturers--for example, Interstyle makes some of our glass tile and some of Ann Sacks' as well).

And Shari, I just read that you're considering our Dakota Prairie Beige tile. I'm wondering if you've actually seen it in person. I just wanted to warn you that it isn't our richest-looking tile. We rarely sell it, and when we do, it's usually for a starter-home fireplace surround. (Just being honest here!) It also comes across as a little pink. With the beautiful mosaics you've selected, you might want to look at one of the lighter, warmer colors of City View, Continental Slate or Mountain Peak. All are high-quality color-body porcelains. The City View has a travertine look in the two lighter colors, and the Mountain Peak and Continental Slate have a similar texture to the Dakota's but with more dimension and a matte finish. The lighter/warmer shades available in the Donegal, Passaggio, Portenza, Brancacci, Capriccio and Castle de Verre styles might also work. Good luck!

".The wall mount vanity would be tiled..."

I'm pro small tile, but I think tiling the vanity along with everything else might just be too much. A wall mounted/floating vanity is great, but perhaps you could have it in a wood or laminate? I think that small tile covering every surface of the room would be too busy, but is your bathroom and in the end what you like is best for your space. Best of luck.

There is more grout and thus more probability of mildew and a higher degree of maintenance is required with smaller tiles. It is more difficult for a contractor to install this as well, which is why they always try to convince you to not do small tiles. It's ultimately up to you. If you keep things clean, you don't need to worry about the mildew so much. You also need to seal the grout,w hich will help.

I'd also encourage you to look at what the National Kitchen and Bath Association has to say on the topic. They have a great consumer section on their web site, http://www.nkba.org.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Schluter Systems for doing your tiles, be they large or small (my personal preferance is for small tiles, which will more likely withstand the test of time, style-wise, over large tiles). Anyway, I've just had tiles installed in a couple of bathrooms and the tub/shower surrounds were done in tile using the Schluter System, which is a waterproofing system for both under the tiles, and at the edges. This is the only method I will use in the future, where moisture is a concern. You can read about the company at www.schluter.com. They also have an office in Plattsburgh, NY, so you can phone them too. Any tile setter worth his/her salt should know about this.

Wendy,
Thanks for your input- I hadn't yet seen your tiles in person, I was just getting the idea from the website.

I will check out the other ones you mentioned. Where is the best place in Manhattan to get them?
thanks!!
Shari

Susan,

I've been researching the Schluter System- and now i insist that my contractor use it.

anyone else has used it?

Rita

I know I'm one of many to chime in on this, but I feel I can add a little bit of personal experience because my dad is a very experienced contractor who has been building and remodeling homes with my mom for over 25 years.

Even when they don't agree with the design someone wants, they never try to talk them out of it if the person likes it. And most importantly they'll explain their opinion, like everyone here has done, so that the customer knows why they feel the way they do. Maybe your contractor does have legitimate reasons for not liking small tile, but if he does, he should explain why.

We recently renovated a similar sized bathroom in our house, and had many of the same "debates." We also opted to remove the tub -- it was the best decision we ever made (in fairness, I have to admit that we have another bathroom with a tub in the house).

We also opted for 12x12 honed limestone tile in a tan color on the walls of the bathroom and shower, but used smaller and somewhat lighter colored tiles on the floor. The smaller tiles on the floor of the shower and bathroom. We used a tanish grout throughout. The smaller tiles on the floor made it easier to get the right slope in the shower for a drain, and also make for slightly more stable footing than the larger honed limestone surface would have (or at least, that was our logic).

We also chose not to install a vanity at all. We put in a simple wall mounted sink ("Happy D" from Duravit -- not at all expensive, but very nice) and wall mounted faucet/handles ("Stillness" from Kohler). Storage is limited (we only have a recessed mirror-front cabinet), but we like the simplicity as a trade-off.

With a look that plain, it makes the "details" that much more important. We were fortunate to have an extremely talented architect who is a friend to help us (at a rate much lower than he would normally charge).


Just my thoughts/experience

Monika
Can you give me some info on that back painted glass for your shower? I am redoing my tiny bath to a walk in shower and I've been trying unsuccessfully to find any techniques for that very idea of back painted glass walls. did you do that yourself? nobody around my area ever heard of such a thing.

scoopie

Scoopie -

There are a couple of manufacturers out there. Having looked at their websites, "back painted" may be a misnomer, but the effect is the same. One is www.glasskoteusa.com (the one we will be using as it is available locally) and the other is http://eurostyleglasscolours.com/Page_1.html

Hope this helps.

And thanks for the tip about the Schulter systems!

And about the installation of the glass walls and backsplashes -- it is VERY tricky to install (same for frameless showers), and it needs to be done by the glass professionals (the measurements are quite tricky and difficult, because there is so little room for error). Definately not something to be attempted by a do-it-yourselfer (and we do most things!)

Glass tiles on the floor can be slippery depending on the finish. I'm using small glass tiles on the walls of a steam shower and a much larger surface on the floor. The nice thing about Swanstone or Duravit or even terrazo is that you can purchase a prefabricated shower base. This is critical to me as I don't want to deal with call backs or problems down the line which can happen matter how much care you take with your fabrication of a site built shower pan. Also it costs as much or more to hot mop before you even pour your mudset as it does to buy a finished shower base. Some sell bases with glass enclosures included, which in a small bathroom can add to the feeling of space.
Go to ebay and check this out Item number: 250042609728 You can still use your glass tile on the walls that aren't glass.

I think marble and granite would look better, however, the would be quite slippery.

Hi, Rita I like the color of the tiles attached to your letter. I spent the weekend looking at my bathroom after a thorough cleaning and realized that it is old so it will NEVER look as clean as I want it to. So, I went online and looked at both irredesent mosaic glass tiles and white subway tiles. Would it be too much to use the glass tiles midway along the two walls behind the sink and toilet and then subway within the 3 walls of the bath/show area? I am also at a loss about what color and type to lay on the floor. All suggestions are greatly appreciated, I need your help.

After reading everyones insight so far, one thing is sure I know I need to be sure of everything before I contact a contractor.

I just visited a Daltile showroom and the salesperson was HORRIFIED by our interest in using large (18x18) travertine squares for a shower floor. She claimed that we needed all the grout around many small tiles for traction. I would like to minimize the amount of grout.

Is there any kind of surface treatment for "honed" stone tiles that confers enough traction for a shower floor?

(The shape of the floor is not a problem for our design)

Anyideas people on size of floor tiles in a hall or bathrooms..porcelaine seems my choice at present...black marble look in hall and adjoining bath, and a light burl beige look in one bath of master bdrm.12x12 6x6 18x18 or?? I am not into the small ones at all...thanks...

Plumbers Advice:
Small tiles work well for a shower floor and any area that would need drainage to a floor drain. They slope well and keep you from possible drainage problems in the long run. Any good tile guy knows how to install them. It's not that difficult. As far as grout goes...seal it and keep it clean. Big deal! A lot of big commercial bathrooms use small tile. Some smart residential people use small tile for bathrooms, on request only. Your contractor may just specialize in residential and not have much knowledge on the subject. He's not necessarily lazy. I suggest talking to a good tile man, ask them what he would do in his own bathroom (they love that), and getting him to price your project. I don't suggest you talk to your contractors tile man. Let him deal with his own guys. You can always contract the tile work yourself and have the contractor omit it from the original agreement. This may be a positive way to get the contractor to step up his game with his subs.

I recommend thinking about this in terms of the bathroom as a whole, incorporating a variety of tile sizes for visual interest. I suggest using larger tiles on the floor (hopefully this is an even surface), 12x12 or so. Then using 6x6 on the shower walls, and finally the 1x1 on the shower floor. The small tiles on the floor allow for easier accommodation of the sloped shower base, and becuase you'll need more grout, it will provide better traction. Using a darker grout to will help avoid having to clean it constantly. You can also use smaller tiles as a border or even inset soap dishes, etc. These and shower floors are the smallest areas, and so using the expensive small tiles in here will be cheaper than trying to do the entire shower walls in smaller tiles. Either way, you can't go wrong. Pick what you like - there is no harm done.

Small tiles give a lot of work, but you can mix them... on the other hand in small bathrooms, small tiles make the bathroom even smaller...