apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

one thing i did forget to add - as people are saying, if you have simple things like posters or whatever, i'm all about the cheap frames too. and some of them can be just perfect for what you want - especially if you want a simple black or natural wood frame. it's all about chosing what pieces are really worth it to take to a framer.

Btw, Pearl Paint does not strike me as a place where you could develop a relationship, or get too much special time and attention (so, a $300 price tag from there strikes me also as high, but of course it depends on the size and molding)... anybody have a different experience with Pearl?

I have also found that a good framing job can make inexpensive pieces look great. It seems crazy to spend $200 to frame a $20 print, at first, but if the end result looks amazing then you've still only spent $220!

I ordered a vintage photograph print through my public library for 12 bucks, and had it professionally matted and framed. It looks like an heirloom photo now.

Here's a cheap, minimalist alternative if your art is not valuable. I've started a project making "frameless" frames using swiss corners (see http://www.dickblick.com/zz189/12/) and foamcore. I realized that many people who've installed new windows in the last 10 years have a bunch of old storm windows lying around in their basements/garages/storage spaces that they don't know what to do with--just pry off the metal frames, and voila: free glass! The glass in these is typically 1/8" thick, which is thicker than is usual for framing, so you'll need to account for that extra weight when hanging. Turns out cutting glass is easy, once you get the hang of it (http://wiki.ehow.com/Cut-Glass). Watch out for those sharp edges!

If I need mats, I'll probably order from Documounts, which seems to have reasonable prices (http://www.documounts.com/html/132). But most likely I'll use two pieces of glass and have the art "float" between them, with the hanging hardware visible. Looks kinda cool if you're into a sort of industrial aesthetic.

It's true that good framing is worth it.... L&O in Tribeca is by far the best frame shop I've ever encountered -- flawless, stylish results and very fair pricing. I can't recommend it highly enough.

I bought a mat cutter & board a few years back, and do it myself. Once you get the hang of it it's not so difficult.

From 1985 to 1990 I sold custom picture framing and did a certain amount of the execution of it, too. I MUCH preferred selling/desigining it, because even with the proper equipment, it was a huge pain. But I once tried getting an inexpensive matt cutter and cutting my own mats at home with disastrous results. Don't do it, Kelly, it ain't wuth what I been through.

Picture framing prices vary so widely, because the overhead is such a variable. Good, knowledgeable sales people and good, meticulous framers need to be paid well, and if they're not you'll get schlock work and/or schlock selections.

Glass is VERY cheap. Matboard, by itself, is really not all THAT expensive, etc., etc., etc. But putting it all together in a way that complements the piece and protects it, and yes, in some cases you really do want to acknowledge the setting that it's going in, requires a lot of thought. For the custom framing, they tend to order the frames from the "chopper" services and they tend to get deliveries once or twice a week, so they have to allow a day or two after the deliveries of the frames themselves to promise that assembling the rest of it will get done.

Most frame shops use more than one manufacturer, or chop service, so sometimes they'll try to steer you toward a profile that comes from a company that gives them a better price or gives them/you better service.

And some places only use archival mat board so that they can say that's all they sell, but if your artwork is a cheap poster, you may not need it to be than fancy, so you're paying for something you don't need.

When I have things framed for my folks at this place in Mississippi, I'm always a little shocked at how low the prices are. Since I have loads of confidence in my own taste, I know that it doesn't really matter what the tastes are of those salesfolks as long as their selection and execution are decent.

So... taste, knowledge, selection, and skill are the main variables you're looking at with custom framing.

As Serge Diaghalev was quoted by Alexandra Danilova, "With the taste you can do anything; without the taste you can do nothing."

to echo curtis' comments, i was a framer for afew years (and my mom had a frame shop in our house while growing up). my friends ask me the same question often. it seems so simple to do - why is it so expensive? it really does come down to materials and labor. framing something in a shop takes alot of time, and careful work. all the supplies these days are acid free, and are very high quality.
i would work on a piece from start to finish - help chose the design with the customer, cut the frame down, cut the mat, backing, the glass, and then assemble. when it comes to assembly itself, and sealing that piece in, you have to make sure every spec of dust and dirt is gone from the work - which can be tricky, and those little things show. it it not a fast process, and can be very meticulous. keep in mind too, even if it's not a priceless work of art, it's priceless to the person you are framing it for! so you have to be very careful with everything. it really does take skill, talent, and practice. i enjoyed my time framing, and luckily we still have the shop set up at my parents home.

sorry to get a little defensive, but i promise it's expensive for a reason :)

Thanks to AT and everyone's comments for helping me see it from the framers point of view, now it doesn't feel like such a rip off!

The key is choosing which pieces really merit the whole meticulous nine yards and which I can "cheat" - skip the custom mat, etc. - kelly

It's also all completely hand-done, and completely low volume.

Neither of which ever equals savings.

You can learn to cut your own mats (there is a hand-held beveling mat cutter, very low tech, but does a beautiful job ONCE you get the hang of it, which ain't all that easy... but will perhaps make you understand why it's such a valued skill/art.) Just make sure you are using all acid-free materials (which also adds to the cost).

I'd say work with a framer who has a range of pricepoints of molding, develop a relationship, and respect the value of the piece. So, if you are framing a post card, the framer may have a "second" frame close enough to the size you need, or a lower end molding.

But if you spent major bucks on a serious piece of art, expect to pay a fair percentage of the piece's cost on framing. Because remember, we all generally think of framing as "presentation" when it is also just as much about "preservation": preserving the piece and protecting it from damage or breakdown.

Ask a lot of questions, and bring lots of work to frame at once (so the framer sees the "potential"), then perhaps only commit to one as a "test". And also expect a turnaround time of weeks, not days.

I'd not argue with professional framing for valuable art.

That being said, if you want to simply frame some posters, or some family pictures: DIY can't be beat. Are you confident in your own taste, and moderately handy, you can save a lot of money.

I bought a decent mat cutting "machine", (sub $200), acid free mats at the art supply place, and a magazine sized "how to" book, I buy glass, cut to size, at a glasier. (He, and I, prefer it when I bring the frame. It also makes it easier to carry the glass home.) You can buy ok frames, pre cut, from the internet stores that specialize in that. Or you go to Goodwill and see what luck will bring you.


For the $350 you mentioned I had at 1/2 dozen posters and maybe a dozen smaller things framed at least as nicely as the local frame shop would have done.

I did screw up a couple of times, and some of my early framing efforts are, cough, not felicitous. Like anything, there is a learning curve, so start on the stuff that's not critical.

I got my gear from Lee Valley, a hardware & tool place.

I've been using 14th Street Framing Gallery for years, and I don't think I've ever paid more than $200 or $250 to frame a piece ... and that was for an elaborate gold-leaf frame and a double mat with hand-drawn gold lines. A large poster that doesn't fit into a standard-size frame can be done there for as little as $50 (a tiny bit more if you want UV-protective glass). Not only do they do a great job, but in many cases, they've suggested mats and frames to enhance a piece that I would never have been tried on my own. Expertise is worth paying for!

If you're doing a bunch of stuff yourself, and want to match your frames, you can also go the route that I do (I am an artist and end up framing 6-20 pieces at a time for a show) - I hate cutting mats (with a passion. I'd rather stab myself in the eye with a pencil.) so I order the mats and the framing pieces, plus the glazing and assembly all from westfall framing. It's easy to assemble the "picture sandwich" when you have all the ingredients: frame, glass, mat, image, back mat, backing board. I framed a show with 12 28" square frames that were 1.5" deep, with matboard, glazing, assembly materials, backing board, etc for about $125 a piece. Westfall framing is my source, 99% of the time. www.westfallframing.com.

For years I was accumulating old prints, until I had about 20. I decided to make my own frames because I thought it would be cheaper than the, oh, two grand I'd pay somebody else to do it. I had free access to kiln-dried wood and a shop. A friend let me use her matte cutter. All I paid for was the matte, glass, and hardware. However, figuring my time at my freelance billing rate, I would have done much better paying somebody else to do it -- and it would be DONE (I've hit a wall). The matte cutting drove me up the wall. Still, the wood is very nice -- spalted maple, walnut with a hint of sapwood -- and the carpentry part was fun and satisfying. Take home point: Respect the framer!

Pro framers are without doubt the best but sometimes it is just too much to pay for some of the "pieces" in my revolving/evolving collection.
Noticed the expensive custom frames most commonly used and ordered at my friend's fancy gallery (plain thick black or pale wood, you know the type, seems to be pretty standard for posters or photos) are strikingly similar to the plain wood frames with mats in standard sizes at loads of stores including yes, Wholesale Liquidators on Broadway above Houston. Obviously not the same quality, particularly up close, but when I want to hang a series for a few months at a moments notice or not pay $1k it works just fine.
If I want to really protect the work or use some funky old frame I'll have uv glass cut, then go to AI Freidman on 18th St. where they custom cut archival quality mats with a laser in moments for the best price around.

Hi Laf,
I always wondered about the question posed: you answered it perfectly. I've done some poor excuses for framing and will be grateful to leave this to the pros.

Rather than being a framer, I was (obviously, if you've read some of my comments here) an art student. I've done a lot of matting and mounting in my time.

I can cut a perfect mat, or at least could a few years ago. However: it's fairly easy with professional equipment, like the mat cutters that framers and schools have. These allow you to quickly align a board and draw a bar-mounted cutter smoothly across it, using your pressure to determine the entry and exit points. It is NOT easy with home equipment like the small hand-held mat cutter that you can buy (which also requires a metal T-square and, probably, a gridded self-healing mat). The cutter is not attached to the T-square, and there's no clamp on the board, and it's really easy for things to slide around. You could probably still do a plain white single mat, if you were experienced and careful, but nested mats of different sizes and colors would be a pain in the butt.

I'm pretty sure the professional cutting table is very expensive; it also needs to have its blades frequently replaced. This would definitely contribute to the cost of framing.

Miranda:
I think you've pretty much summarized why it's worth paying for a framer to do the work, even if you have the expertise to do it yourself. Most of us just don't have room in our apartments to store all the equipment necessary, even if there's a handy table on which to do the actual work.

I've used Frames by Mail(framesbymail.com) before, another service that sends you the frame, mat, plexiglass for you to put together- very easy. You can choose color, mat(s), size, etc...Also, good list of framing links on MUG (http://www.manhattanusersguide.com/archives_content.php?contentID=041805&category=services).

if youhave some time, shopping for components and minor diy can save you a huge amount of money.

the biggest markups you can save money on are the raw wood frame/moulding and matting.

goto a good moulding store. buy some beautiful moulding and finish it yourself. you can take this to a *real* framing store and have it mitred and joined for a reasonable price.

an alternative is to buy a great used frame or good quality ready-made frame that is too big for your work, and bring to shop to have cut down (they can cut everything down, metal/wood, glass, etc).

get archival quality matting by the sheet from an art supply store or order online. take the sheet in to have the mats cut for a set fee. it's not worth cutting the mats yourself!!!

you can get the whole thing assembled by a framer for a set price.

*do* spend money on good glass if this is something you want to preserve. uv kills art/photos.

Oh der - anonymous brings up another good point that I experienced as an art student. Most stores don't carry, or don't want to sell to the public, acid-free matboard.

What is generally available is usually of inferior quality, meant for student work (because who but students, the logic goes, would be trying to do their own matting? and why would students, who are almost certainly going to screw something up, want to pay for premium matboard?) You can sometimes get museum-grade boards from places like Blick (definitely listed on their website), but in general I found that trying to buy it in shops, esp outside of major urban areas, was like pulling teeth.

I live in Sydney (Australia), where we have Community College evenings and weekends at local grade and high schools. They teach all kinds of courses - crafts, dance, cooking, some small business stuff. Except for the business courses, they are strictly hobby level but serve as an intro to the subject. If you want more you do a course at a Technical College.

Some years back I did a framing course over a weekend. You need good precise measuring and an ability to handle simple tools. The tutor cut the glass which is very thin - only 2 mm thick - and everyone broke one piece as they cleaned it. The edges are very sharp.

We left the class with instruction sheets, places to go for supplies and our framed art. For me, the glass is the hard part - no car - have to get it home from a glazer- bit scared of a sheet for example 24 x 36 ins.

Some people do the course more than once because DIY means having to buy the tools and it helps to have a workbench 36 inches high while you do the measuring and cutting - no stooping.

I also found chopping the thicker frame hard going. If I did the course again, I'd get the frames chopped and do the rest in class. I'd do a deal with the tutor for extra glass and do a dozen items.

It's hard to believe Sydney is the only place in the world with those kind of classes. From memory the entire weekend was under A$200.

Here is the URL, so you can match it with something similar at home www.escc.nsw.edu.au/cgi-bin/WebObjects/East.woa

I used Chelsea Frames (on 23rd and 9th) a few times and have been happy with their work. They are always helpful with ideas without imposing their taste on you and really take your opinion into account.

I brought an old family photo and can't wait to get it back reframed. They have been great for my needs and you can't put a price on a famiy heirloom.

Alvin

Is anyone still available to discuss this, two months later? I have some photos I would like to mat without frames. They were actually really funny posed snapshots from a vacation but because of the setting, the right mat could pass them off as jokey-artistic. I have an exact size I'm looking for, and want one mat with four "windows" and one with six.

Pearl was my first thought as well, since I thought they might cut the mat without framing. Has anyone ever tried this? Do they have giant matboards to cut to custom sizes, and will they cut multiple windows per board?

I guess my big worry is that if framing costs $300 at Pearl, getting just the mat (if that's possible) would be $150. Considering these are goofy photos that I will be printing off my home printer, I was hoping for something like...$30. Do I have to consider other display options instead?

Thanks for the shout, Rachel in Denver.
For one or two -off jobs, as long as it is not your intention to preserve the art work for 50+ years, just buy a ready made frame package from Target or Walmart or the like. Dickblick, Light Impressions will be more expensive for no good reason. Assuming your artwork will not fit properly in the window mat provided (if it did, you wouldn't need this thread), simply have a local frame shop cut you an apropriately sized 4 ply window mat. Should cost about 5-15 dollars. Any more than that, order one online from Westfall Framing or American Frame.
When buying your frame package, keep in mind that you are going to want AT LEAST 2 inches of border space all the way around the image. 2 inches would be about right for 3X5 up to 11X14. Increase the border size for larger images. The borders do not need to be round numbers, nor do they need to be all the same size. Left and right borders should be equal, top should be close to those, and let the difference fall out at the bottom- bottom should equal to or bigger than the top. How much bigger? Doesn't matter.
Make your window size 1/4 to 1/2 inches smaller than your image so that the mat overlaps the image.
And finally, the golden rule of window mat borders: you cannot have TOO MUCH border.
For more info on picture framing in general, go to westfallframing.com and click on our handy framing guide.

I do watercolors and oil paint as well. I have messed around (far too long) with cheap, store bought frames, (Michaels, Aaaron Bros.) and cannot even come close to the exceptional quality and style of having my art custom framed. True, it is a bit more pricey but, my art represents a part of me. I wouldnt scrimp on my self so I definitely wouldnt scrimp on my art. I found a nice home based business here in Nipomo, Ca. called A.F.G. Frame Company. The gentleman there was fantastic and helped me to decide on what worked best. He is very knowledgeable and couteous. I would highly recommend him or a custom framer near you. Its just worth it.

I second the suggestion of buying the components and doing it yourself. I came across a site called Custom Frame Solutions (www.customframesolutions.com). They only sell custom frames, but all their mouldings are solid wood and their prices are unbelievable. I got my custom frame in a few days via FedEx and only paid about $48 for a 30.5" x 24.5" frame.