apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

Good fences make good neighbors and boundaries within a family need to be respected.

Mental health wise I tink that was Hamlet's major problem. He did not know where they started and he began and look how it turned out for him.

I read the story about kids sleeping with their parents with great confusion. How does it happen that these kids even START sleeping with their parents? I don't have kids, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but when I was little I would sometimes wake up and go whine to my parents, but I never got in bed with them. They weren't meanies, it just wasn't an option.

This makes me terrified of parenting.

Um, Jenny, also not having kids, I totally agree. I remember having nightmares and going to find my parents and being firmly but kindly escorted back to my bed and tucked in amid enough reassurances that I don't ever remember getting up twice. That said, I don't think my sister and her husband have slept together since their first kid was born. Now with two, I just don't think they sleep. Last time they visited my sister slept with the kids on the futon and her husband slept on the couch until about 3am when one kid went to go find him. I slept quite fine the whole time but my door has a lock on it (thank god).

I know I co-slept with my parents as an infant, but was soon moved to my own room, where I remained.

At this point, I don't have children of my own, but my answer to having children in your bed is a definite no. In addition to the (very important) point that boundaries are important, getting a good night's sleep is ESSENTIAL to any person's well-being, both mentally and physically. It makes me sad to know that so many people sacrifice sleep for whatever reason.

And Jenny, don't be terrified of parenting. The reason these people's children are taking over their beds is because the parents have made a choice to allow them to do so.

The woman in the photo isn't happy about sharing with the kiddies... check out the weird expression on her face.

It's my guess that most readers, parents or non-parents, will find lots of reasons to reject the idea of a family bed. After all, it's our cultural norm for parents to sleep together and for children to have their own beds.

But many families, including ours, have chosen to adopt traditional parenting practices that have served the human race for most of our history. Even in recent times, babies sleep with at least one parent in almost half of the world's societies.

We happily share our family bed with our baby and our 3 year old. No, we are not insane and yes, we like sleep. In fact, for our family cosleeping is a very practical choice. I find that nighttime parenting is much easier when I can take care of my critters' needs without having to get out of bed. In our small home, a family bed also affords us the added benefit of saving space so that our home can be organized to optimize the daytime use of our square footage.

Parenting choices are for individual families to make and I wouldn't presume to try to convince anyone to adopt a family bed. It never fails to amuse me, however, how threatened people are by the family bed concept. Anyone who is interested in knowing more about the anthropology of childhood sleep can read the article linked to in my name.

As a person who does have kids, I'm 100% cool with whatever decision people make on the non-life or death issues like co-sleeping. I don't co-sleep but the parents in the articles all admit that while not ideal, it's what gets them the most sleep most nights. I hear that. Like Liz Lange I remember sleeping on the floor outside my parents closed door when I had a nightmare. Kinda makes me sad when I think back on it. My parents were great but I'm not doing everything the way they did it.

And I'm 1000% cool with people who admit to making a mistake when it comes to parneting. You see it very very rarely.

The thing I took away from the article: kids in this town have some sweet bedrooms!

PS, What HUGE ad on the bottom of the page are you talking about?

I posted before I read Ksenia's post. They could have had a couple of non-reluctant co-sleepers in the article. I know many parents who are co-sleepers by choice and love it.

julianna, that's what i kept thinking while i was reading it: these kids have great bedrooms!

i can't imagine having my entire family in the bed with me, especially the kids. i would never, ever sleep.

Ksenia-
you said it all. Thank you!

Most children on the planet sleep in the same room as their parents. I don't think there is *anything* unhealthy about that, per se.

I do feel sorry for some of the kids mentioned in the NYT article, though. They sounded starved for parental attention. I think kids really crave time with their parents and if they can't get time with them during waking hours, they will try to snuggle up at night, instead.

this is just another example of a problem that didn't exist when i was a kid becoming an epidemic.

people are obviously making lot of money attempting to "treat" it.

No wonder they don't have time to spend with their kids during the day: They are too busy making the money they need for the prime real estate, decorators for the kids' rooms and fancy sleep consultants!

I totally agree with Jenny. Every time I read an article about parenting, or work-life balance, or decorating for children, or babies, I swear I just get more terrified of becoming a parent.

regarding this business of sleeping with your unruly children:

this is just another example of a problem that didn't exist when i was a kid becoming an epidemic.

people are obviously making lot of money attempting to "treat" it.

My parents used to lock their door when I was small. They had 7 kids, so they said it was self-defense. I remember waking up with nightmares and not being able to get in their room. But I have NEVER had an issue with my son staying in his room, it just never was an option for him to sleep in our bed and so he never pushed it. When he was sick I would let him sleep with me and then transfer him to his own bed when he was conked out. That way we BOTH slept well. He always liked to cuddle in the morning after breakfast and before school and we do still do that on occasion, even though he's almost 12.

Ksenia,

Thanks for your thoughtful response and the link to the article--it was helpful, as I don't know anything about this cosleeping thing. I can see the reasoning behind it with babies, since they need to breastfeed all the time and such.

What freaked me out about the article was how old the children were--most of them were above breastfeeding age, and some were going to school, reading, having-princess-bedroom, take-up-a-lot-of-room-in-the-bed age. Isn't "cosleeping" supposed to end at some point?

Thanks for the interesting conversation!

-Jenny

"But many families, including ours, have chosen to adopt traditional parenting practices that have served the human race for most of our history. Even in recent times, babies sleep with at least one parent in almost half of the world's societies."

The problem I have with this argument is that in the U.S. we don't live in a traditional society. A lot of things that are norms in more traditional societies don't work in ours. For example, it is the norm in traditional societies to use corporal punishment, have large families and to have children working to produce family income from an early age--does that mean these practices are the right thing to do in our society?

skeptical: what does it matter to you if another family decides to co-sleep?

It doesn't. I think families should do what makes them happy. But I hate when people make sweeping arguments based on faulty logic. If co-sleeping works for you, great, but to claim it's superior because it's the most "natural" arrangement isn't an argument that holds water.

I agree with Skeptical. Make your own decisions and don't justify them by falling into the Argument from Tradition fallacy.

When I become a parent (hopefully in the near future) we will not do the co-sleeping. I believe in the parent's bed being a private space. Besides, I don't want my kid sleeping in the same spot I have kinky sex.

I think you are allowed to make your own decisions in these matters and justify them however you wish. Nearly everyone here is against co-sleeping and justifies it for a variety of reasons. Ksenia is pro and says it's most practical for her family while pointing out that it's AGAINST the tradition here.

I don't see the issue.

In all seriousness, when there is a co-sleeping arrangement with kids in the parents' bed all night every night, don't the parents lose intimacy with each other? Simply put-- when and where do the parents get to have sex if the babies are sleeping with them all the time? I would find that to be a real strain on an adult relationship. Quickies on the couch while the kids occupy the only mattress does not seem like a satisfying long-term solution.

before i had children (typing this with a sleeping 4 month old in my other arm), i thought co-sleeping was wrong, that it created psychological problems and was the result of a lack of discipline.

it is amazing how much you learn as a parent! each child is different and has different needs and requires different parenting. our 3 year old co-sleeps with us when she needs to -- it is her choice. we both work full-time and it is a way of feeling connected and secure with our child. it works for all of us; like ksenia i like to have my brood nearby.

the problem with the article was that it was not balanced; lots of families co-sleep successfully, but none of those were featured. it was a negative piece that feeds into a cultural bias.

here is a good link on the matter (dr. sears):
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T071000.asp

Does anyone know where I could get those figurines as pictured in the 1stdibs.com picture, besides the antique version that could potentially cost more than I would like?

Well, put Ksenia. We are also happy co-sleepers (a 3 year old and 6 month old). :) The family bed is just the way it is for our family. The article seemed to be focused on kids who did not start out co-sleeping as babies, but only tried to get into the parents beds as children. Perhaps the kids are trying to reconnect after being away from the parents all day? I am all for each family doing what works best for them. I never planned on co-sleeping (actually I remember saying I would never sleep with my baby), but from day one I just never felt right putting my son in his crib. I know that for our family we are definitely not sacrificing sleep for the sake of the family bed- in fact, I am pretty sure we all sleep better because of it.

Only two words for this. White People.

If people want to co-sleep, that's fine. I personally don't, but I think saying it's traditional is kind of misleading because the vast majority of people in the world who co-sleep don't really have other options. Most people co-sleeping are co-sleeping out of necessity (with the exception of people in 1st world countries, where it's still more uncommon than common).

oh no. since none of the experienced and happy family bed crowd is answering my serious question about what happens to adult relations, it makes me think that my question is somehow trivial to them.

Can it be true-- is sleep really the new sex? that's so... depressing.

I remember when I was young coming into my parents' room during a thunderstorm or after a nightmare, and being allowed to stay for a while--that has always seemed like the right balance for me (though it's different for everyone). Co-sleeping as a rule just doesn't work in my life.

However--Ksenia, I thought your comments were very articulate, and stated the case for co-sleeping very well. It seems like you have hit upon the best arrangement for your family, which is terrific. The difference between you and the families in this article is that they seem to just let their children run roughshod over them. THAT's what I found upsetting.

Gretchen--in one of the co-sleeping families I know, the parents have sex strictly on the sofa. I don't know if that's the norm or not, though.

Do what works for you and be happy, everyone! Different techniques obviously work for different families.
I think that setting limits overall, being consistant, and showing children how to behave politely and reasonably are so much more important than any one parenting practice, traditional or otherwise.

since no one is answering your question you think they aren't having sex? huh?

My kids (3 y.o. and 5 months) don't sleep in our bed for a variety of reasons. The bed is too small, I thrash around in my sleep, I am paranoid about accidentally suffocating them and most importantly, they don't seem to mind sleeping in their own room. It doesn't bother me one way or another, but he only person I know who allowed their son to sleep with she and her husband is now having a very difficult time getting their little boy to sleep in his own room.

I was under the impression that an infant in the bed was an issue of danger (to the infant) and not one of cultural preference... did I misread that somewhere? And does SIDS not happen the world over?

(I'm no parent, so don't crucify me if I've misinterpreted something about this topic...)

And if the parents are interested in making yet another little "co-sleeper," what do they do... kick the kids out for that one night (or 15 minutes)? Or do they sneak off to the unused but fabulous kids room to get busy?

Seems to me the whole thing is a little "fraught"...

natural cosleeping starts with breastfeeding anne + jenny +... (see monika's link to dr.sears article too). it's makes breastfeeding convenient for the baby + mother, so neither has to get too awake by getting out of bed or crying to get milk.

more families cosleep than admit it. i felt like it was biologically programmed in me to protect my daughter while she was sleeping + i couldn't do that with her down the hall alone in a room wondering if she's been abandoned. plus i was hypersensitive to her presence even when i was asleep, so i wouldn't roll over on her, but her dad might, so position the baby with the mom in middle, so dad can't roll on the baby.

P2, maybe the co-sleepers have taken advantage of the space left vacant by the kids to make a "boom boom room". They could even leave the princess bed, get a few pieces of armor and a sword for the dad... Then, as Mel Brooks would say, "Have fun storming the castle!"

Have you no imagination, people?

Our three-year old shares our room but has always had her own crib/bed.

It is "hot" to try to stifle the noise while we have sex in the bed... and we have frequent, kinky, loud sex pretty much everywhere in teh house once she is in bed.

The key: Early bedtimes for the kids. (Ours is down by 7 p.m.). True, that is hard to do if both parents work late.

patrick -
co-sleeping reduces the risk of sids (check my link), and no, sids rates are not the same the world-over. some of that is likely down to record-keeping, but there appears to be a connection between the type of bedding and sids. the highest rates used to be, in of all places, new zealand. dr.sprott postulates that it is down to certain chemicals found in bedding; he showed that sids rates shot up after the use of fire retardent chemicals in baby bedding became common, and were high in new zealand due to the use of lambskins.

as for having sex, these families keep having kids, so obviously, everyone is still having it.

we always have the baby in a bassinet next to the bed; within touching distance, but no danger of roll-overs. you can also buy "dams" in which to place the baby to prevent such things.

my husband and i both love co-sleeping; we know that, like childhood, it is fleeting, and soon enough our daughter will always choose to sleep in her own bed (like i said, ours is occasional). we like knowing she is o.k., hearing her breathing, and helping soothe her bad dreams while she is still drowsy. like mod*mom, i feel i as biologically programmed for this -- protecting my young when they are their most vulnerable.

the families featured in the NYT piece seem to have something else going on in their family dynamic; at the very least, the adults were feeling forced into something that did not work for them, which is unhealthy. that is not the case for us; we are happy, and find it works well for us. the issue is not co-sleeping per se, it is managing needs, both physial and emotional. everyone needs to do what works for them, so i dispute the blanket comdemnation that co-sleeping is "fraught" for all.

I think "AnonCoSleeper" just demonstrated why I'm perfectly happy if people don't answer the sex question here. Use your own imagination, people.

I don't have kids yet, but my feeling is that I won't be able to make a decision on co-sleeping until there are actual kids to contend with. If it turns out to be the most comfortable option for all of us, then I would consider it. I think what people find upsetting about this article is that the parents don't sound like they ENJOY the family bed and are being forced into it against their will. If someone's sleep is not best served by this arrangement (either parent's or child's sleep) then it is not a good arrangement.

I know many parents whose children sleep for the majority of the night in their own beds, then pad down the hall in the early morning for another hour or so of sleep and cuddles in their parents' bed, to the enjoyment of everyone.