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Aaaaarrrrggghhhhhh!!!!! That is like a horror movie!

My friend is currently suing her landlord for knowingly renting them an infested apartment. Her lawyer certainly thinks he's liable.

Great. Amanda has now spread the bed bugs to wherever it is she slept last night. That is irresponsible.

Amanda! Your landlord should be paying for the exterminator. Also, if you've got tenants insurance, find out if they will cover the costs of a hotel room for the duration of the treatment of your apartment!!

GOOD LUCK!!!

i recently woke up with bites (a bunch of them) - they are swelled and big and so itchy. i am wondering if they are bed bugs, or just a mosquito that attacked in the night (or at an outdoor party the night before). but no one else was bitten at the outdoor party. also my boyfriend wasnt bitten in the night. someone told me bed bugs usually concentrate on women? is this true! god, i hope i dont have them!!

i recently woke up with bites - today! they are swelling and big - and hurt so much. my boyfriend didn't get bit at all. i am wondering if it was a mosquito - or if i have bed bugs. someone told me they prefer girls - is that true?!

Mr. Green, your negativity is really getting me down. Leave the poor girl alone. She has suffered enough. AND, bedbuggs do not stick to her clothes or body... You remind me of the SNL character aunt Sarah (I think) the movie critic, everything is horrible for her. Get a pair of pink tinted shades it might do you good.

Now, dear Amanda. This is a horrible story, and you should not be going thru this alone. I am glad you have friends that you could stay over with.

On the other hand, I believe your landlord should pay for your exterminator, but he should not be responsible for your neighbor, actually he should make them pay, for not keeping a clean space and for infesting the neighbours. It is the tenants responsibility to keep a clean and neat abode. I am a landlord myself, and I think your landlord is trying to see if you agree with his offer half and half, when he knows fully too well that he should pay and take it with the next door neighbour. So go to the mattresses, be nice but firm with him and tell him that you won't pay any rent until he takes care of the next door apartment. And please ignore the fact the your neighbour is cute...he is irresponsible and selfcentered, that's what he is.

It's the law- it doesn't matter how they got there- your landlord is responsible for the bill if there's a documented infestation. You've got a documented infestation. And if your neighbors place isn't treated, (and probably the whole building,) it's not over.

oh forgot, for a full list of tenant's responsibilities, go to the web page of NYS attorney's general. It is mostly guidance, but it states, that the landlord if prooven negligent, is responsible for damage of your property, but only if it prooved that he neglected to fix the problem over a period of time. Nevertheless, you want him to pay for the exterminator, and might get him to pay for the cleaner's bill...

Actually Anusha73, I believe that the bugs can easily be carried in clothes.

call 311. most likely the landlord has to pay for the exterminator.

It seems to me that no matter when the guy with the most infestation is coming back, that the landlord should have a hazmat team just go in there and do what has to be done.

Because... this kind of sounds LIKE a fire. If there were a fire, the Fire Department would basically come in and kick the door down. This sounds like it's just short of that. Since Amanda was actually there with the landlord, she could be a witness to the fact that landlord wasn't just invading their space for no good reason.

It sounds like it's a little difficult to track the original source of it, but it kind of sounds like if anyon should share the cost with the landlord, it's THAT guy, not her.

Anush73, would you be so kind as to tell us how bed bugs spread since you disagree that that Amanada could have carried the bed bugs with her?

Additionally, you come across as a slumlord trying to get out of your pest control responsibilities.

Is she saying the neighbor's house is dirty or that a bunch of bugs moved in and he may/may not be aware of it? So far the word is these bugs avoid messy homes. Maybe the guy hasn't had a personal run-in with the bugs yet.

I work for a non-profit that helps to house the homeless, and have therefore far too much experience with bed bugs than any human should have. Bed bugs are evil and hard to get rid of. They are also easy to acquire-- even if your neighbors weren't filthy, you could have caught them from bumping shoulders with the wrong person on the subway or buying furniture from a thrift store (sorry thrift stores). I have helped, with exterminators, about 10 clients get rid of bed bugs. We do the following: Wash anything washable in hot water (dry cleaning also works), and bag everything else-- have the exterminator spray in the bags OR keep the bagged items in isolation for 10-12 months. The exterminator should come weekly for 10 weeks to spray. You MUST dispose of your mattress. If you have other upholstered materials (a couch) in your bedroom, you should consider getting rid of it too. If the bed bugs are resilient and recurr after the treatments are complete, which can happen, then you need to consider getting rid of your bed frame (if it is wood), rugs in your room, and any wood or upholstered furntiure in your bedroom. They can even get into books (one client kept her books in boxes in the boiler room for 1 year, since she had so many and could not be sure they were bug free without doing this).

In my experience the landlord ALWAYS pays for the extermination (all of the treatments), the laundry, the dry cleaning, and replacing the mattress and the bed frame (with some reasonable price caps). He should think of it as an investment in his own property, since bed bugs burrough in woods, and can actually live in a property itself. The couches in the lobby of my clients have been infected in the past....

Also, as nice as your esterminator may be, I have learned not to trust them. They don't make a living if there are no bugs. He could spray the other apartment even if no one is there and nothing is bagged, just to get the ball rolling. It will still kill bugs. Your landlord has a right to enter and do what he needs to do in an emergency, and bed bugs are a health hazard that need to be treated aggressively and fast. Anyone with an autoimmune illness (ex., HIV) is at risk of secondary infections caused by (any bug) bites.

I'm really sorry you have had to go through this. It's emotionally exhausting and draining, and it's also embarassing (even though it's not your fault!). Keep focused on what you need to do to address the problem, don't take short cuts, and they will go away. It will all seem like a bad, itchy dream.

Mr. Green, do you understand what problem Amanda has. Her next door apartment divided by a thin sheetrock is a infestation heaven.... She has proof that she did not bring them in. And, if you read what I am telling her, is that she should fight till the end to get the landlord to pay for it. AND I was simply stating what the attorney general's web site says about situations similar to this. Mr. Green, accept it, you are negative. There is nothing wrong with that, this is not the right time for it.

As for me being a slumlord... you wish you lived in my house.... I just hope I never come across tenants like you:-)

all this makes me want to say "boo yah" even though i'm not involved.

Oh, I'm sorry, Anusha73, it wasn't you, it was the OTHER Anusha73 who said her neighbor should pay for the pest control instead of the landlord.

And FYI, having a neat and clean abode and having bedbugs are NOT mutually exclusive. Furthermore, she has NO proof she did not bring them in.

Lydiapo, she does NOT have to get rid of her mattress. She can cover and treat it. If she brings in a new mattress, it will just become infested.

She can get a new mattress if she has to eventually dispose of all of her belongings and move to a bug-free apatment.

Lady J, these bugs do NOT avoid messy homes. They will go anywhere they can suck human blood.

I'll take MrGreen's negativity over Anusha73's rosy glasses any time.

I hope the exterminators treat the laundry facilities in the building as well. It's entirely possible that the source of the pests could be an unclean laundry room.

Mr. Green,
No regrets about my comment to you in the other thread.
I *was* right about you.

Your landlord is responsible for paying. This mostly is because the landlord has no way of proving that you did not bring in the bedbugs.

NY Practice: Landlord-Tenant: § 9:48.50. Generally--Infestation--Bed bugs

An "intolerable" infestation of bed bugs may trigger a breach of the warranty of habitability.[FN1]


[FN1] Ludlow Props., LLC v. Young, N.Y.L.J., 6/21/04, p.18, col. 1 (Civ. Ct., N.Y. Co.) ("In this case the bed bugs did not constitute mere annoyance, but constituted an intolerable condition, notwithstanding the landlord's efforts to exterminate them. Respondent however did not vacate the Premises or raise the defense of constructive eviction. In circumstances as in this case where a landlord has tried repeatedly to exterminate but the infestation is so overwhelming that although the tenant may have been relieved of his obligation to pay rent had he vacated, as he did not[,] equity requires the court take into account the purposes for which the Premises was still being utilized by Respondent. Stated differently, the Court looks to what essential functions or uses Respondent still used the premises notwithstanding the bed bugs."); Jefferson House Associates, LLC v. Boyle, 6 Misc. 3d 1029(A), 800 N.Y.S.2d 348 (J. Ct. 2005).

You usually get to recover lost rent if it is determined the "warranty of habitability" has been breached. This is difficult to prove, but, since you KNOW the landlord has knowledge of multiple tenants (ok, at least 2) having bedbugs, this could escalate to having the warranty breached (see example above).

Other cases where warranty of habitability was breached (you could show these to your landlord to freak him out, as well as to show him you're not just randomly threatening legal action):
Absent a severe infestation of insects or vermin a breach of the warranty is not likely to be found.[FN1]


[FN1] Solow v. Wellner, 154 Misc. 2d 737, 595 N.Y.S.2d 619 (App. Term 1992), aff'd as modified, 205 A.D.2d 339, 613 N.Y.S.2d 163 (1st Dep't 1994), order aff'd, 86 N.Y.2d 582, 635 N.Y.S.2d 132, 658 N.E.2d 1005 (1995) (warranty not breached by presence of one or more roaches on thirty or forty occasions during tenants' two-year occupancy and when extermination service was not requested; Port Chester Housing Authority v. Mobley, 6 Misc. 3d 32, 789 N.Y.S.2d 798 (App. Term 2004) ("[T]enant is entitled to an. . . abatement of $800 due to petitioner's failure to correct the insect and rodent infestation."); Fraley Realty Corp. v. Walsh, N.Y.L.J., 6/18/82, p. 6, col. 3 (App.Term, 1st Dep't) (a roach condition, together with other violative conditions warranted a thirty percent rent abatement); The Bechtoldt Corp. v. Davis, N.Y.L.J., 7/11/90, p. 28, col. 1 (Dist.Ct., Nassau County) (finding of breach of the warranty of habitability "based upon not only the severe infestation of roaches … but also upon the lethal insecticides which were applied in [the tenant's] small apartment"); Town of Islip Community Development Agency v. Mulligan, 130 Misc. 2d 279, 280, 496 N.Y.S.2d 195, 196 (Dist. Ct. 1985) ("the existence of roaches and rats with only token attempts to exterminate them must be considered a breach of the warranty"); Pleasant East Associates v. Cabrera, 125 Misc. 2d 877, 480 N.Y.S.2d 693 (City Civ. Ct. 1984) (rent abated thirty five percent as a result of vermin infestation and other conditions); Smithline v. Monica, 1987 WL 14296 (N.Y. City Ct. 1987) ($10,000 in punitive damages awarded for apartment with severe vermin infestation).

Hope this helps some.

The landlord should pay for the exterminator simply out of moral obligation. The scummy neighbors should be booted out of the apartment as their living habits are detrimental to the entire building.

In college I sublet a furnished apartment from some dimwit girls who had several cats (not allowed in the building) and found out my first night there that the place was infested with fleas (I woke up covered in bites). The landlord immediately had the apartment fumigated and replaced the bed and every piece of upholstered furniture in the apartment (I was lucky; he was a really decent guy).

Good luck; you have my sympathy!

Lawdesigner, as soon as the landlord speaks to his lawyer, the lawyer will advise him to immediately get the bed bugs under control as quickly as possible at his own expense.

Jullletedix, feel free to point out where I've gotten any facts wrong. Perhaps you need to read a little more carefully and try thinking before you post.

When you wrongfully accuse someone of posting incorrect facts because you either didn't bother to read carefully or are unable to understand what you read, you come across as plainly ignorant if not just a little bit ridiculous.

MrGreen- You're assuming that the landlord won't try to squeeze the extermination fees out of a tenant (noooo, a landlord being skimpy with money? Never!). I agree that he should get the bugs under control as soon as possible. My intent was only to try to help give Amanda, as well as any other renters out there, a legal leg to stand on in case their landlords try to weasel out.

I still say move.

Lawdesigner, I'm not in disagreement with you. I just don't think it will be necessary for her to threaten her landlord.

He voluntarily agreed to pay for half and said he would check with his lawyer regarding full payment. Unless the lawyer is incompetent, he will advise the landlord to get the situation under control quickly to avoid just the problems you outlined: breaching the warrant of habitability. He will also advise him that, at least in NYC, he is responsible for payment for pest control, anyway.

I will point out that it is never a good idea to lightly threaten legal action, especially in a situation like this where the threatened party's cooperation is sorely needed.

Sydney, I am surprised the landlord replaced furniture because of a flea infestation. That certainly wasn't necessary. That landlord was a chump.

I agree, MrGreen. But Amanda should be prepared to stand her ground and have the information to back up her statements that he should pay.

And standing her ground doesn't necessarily mean threatening legal action. Just appear competent, knowledgeable regarding landlord-tenant law/rights, and don't be a pushover. She should feel a lot more secure knowing that there are case law and statutes supporting the landlord having to pay.

Lawdesigner, you are correct. Asking for legal advice by polling the readers of a design blog is a bit absurd. It was nice of you to give some real information.

So if the landlord is responsible, does he have to pay for the treatments and PCO of Amanda's choice? As you all probably know, there are a lot of different opinions about what it takes to get rid of bedbugs. I expect that landlords can find some one out there to say that their only responsibility is baseboard spraying.

I'm not in NYC (sadly), but I'm interested in the principle because in all my years as a tenant, and now as a co-op owner, I've usually hired my own PCO since I've never been satisfied by the technicians my landlords/co-op board have sent.

SYB_in_DC, no, the landlord gets to choose the exterminator. Amanda has no legal say in the matter.

However, it is in the landlord's best interest to resolve the problem.

Wouldn't the apartment just get infested again by the neighbors apartment if the apartment is not being treated (and is there no way to reach this neighbor?). If I was out of town I would certainly want them to start dealing with the infestation ASAP. Two weeks is a LONG time to let them keep multiplying.

I believe the landlord can choose his own PCO. But, if it's one Amanda believes does not have the knowledge of bedbugs, she should voice her concern (kindly, in writing--save a copy)to her landlord. That way, if the exterminator fails to eliminate the buggies, Amanda will be on the record as having voiced a concern about that particular exterminator. Amanda will be able to use this as proof her landlord did not take adequate measures to alieviate the problem.

I'd handle the situation delicately. You don't want the landlord to feel forced into accepting a certain exterminator, and you don't want to be stuck with a sucky (pardon the pun, but we are dealing with bedbugs) exterminator either. Amanda, I'd go to some legitimate sources (government, legit organizations, etc) that indicate the most effective paths to take to alieviate bedbugs. Emphasize that this problem requires experts, it is a rapidly growing problem, and traditional bug extermination methods do not work. Make a copy for yourself and give this to your landlord. This will help justify the guy you went with to him.

The problem is Amanda hired an exterminator, not her landlord. That's strongarming the landlord into accepting Amanda's exterminator. The landlord may claim he would have hired a cheaper exterminator. It's up to Amanda to convince him she was right (delicately) so that she can recoup the entire cost of her exterminator.

But moving isn't going to do anything--if they could be in all of her clothes and on her belongings, she could just bring them to the new apartment.

Speaking of infestations, hey MrGreen, when's *your* exterminator coming?

Cuz there's *obviosuly* a bug up there...

Amanda, You may also want to keep mum that you were in your neighbor's apartment. Unless the neighbor gave approval for your landlord AND you to be in there, your landlord was violating NY law by letting you in there too. If he didn't get approval from the tenant (and this situation does not constititute an emergency), unless NY has a 24- or 48-hour posted notice to enter premises law (in which case Amanda still would not be allowed to enter), your landlord did not go through the proper channels.

Stay clear of the mess. Limit your involvement to dealing with your landlord, not your neighbor. Ensure, with your landlord, that he is taking care of the problem in the entire complex. If your neighbor confirms bedbugs to you, then you're more in the clear. You don't need threat trespassing suits filed against you.

here here patrick(the other one)!

Anyone else noticed a particularly unpleasant, harsh, and confrontational tone has begun to infect these comments? It used to be a joy to read through and see how supportive the AT community was. I regret that I feel the need to couch that in the past tense now.

I'm all for hearing multiple points of view and legitimate differences of opinion, discussed coherently and with civility, but feel that a number of recent comments have been coming across as sanctimonious, judgmental, and un-empathetic. These comments may not even be intended this way, but they sure do come across with a definite unfriendly edge.

In short, my plea:
-more humor and good sense (thanks to p(too) and others for always being so reliable in this regard)
-less vitriol from mr. green and his fellow debaters please!

I agree JDog. I think some people use the anonymity of the internet as an excuse to be rude or unkind. I'm never impressed with those who just post things to "stir the pot".

totally not digging on mr. green's vibe about spreading to her overnight guests. and yet, you do have to take "quarantine" precautions when visiting others when you have bed bugs. change clothes and bag them at the door. and be conscious of your bags. they most definitely do travel on clothing and in bags and pockets. my friend was given a terrible infestation by her boyfriend and they lived nowhere near each other. it's controllable, but i'm still sort of aghast at the amount of misinformation out there. bedbugger really is a good blog to use as a resource.

ValerieNYC, nobody said anything about her overnight guests. She stayed at somebody else's house. If you're going to criticize others, at least make some effort to read what they wrote first. Please. She's the one spreading the infestation by sleeping at other person's apartment. If she would research bed bugs, she would know that it is not even recommended to move from the bed to the sofa because you just spread the problem around.

JDog, I imagine you think supporting Patrick's constant barrage of personal attacks is friendly? Think again.

MrGreen, I held my tongue for a looonnnng time before calling you on your tone.

And my tongue doesn't like to be held. Well, let me rephrase that...

Anywho, I've been TOTALLY itchy since this topic came up.

Hopefully it's just crabs.

Mr Green, I actually think the ad hominem attacks began quite a while ago -- certainly they didn't start with P(too). My view is that his remarks (as you yourself mentioned in BedBugs#4) have generally tried to keep the humor and friendliness quotient up on these threads.

That said, I don't find ANY of the current tone particularly friendly -- from you AND from many others -- hence my appeal. These boards are more helpful, and more fun to read, when we all focus on providing useful information (like you've done in many posts) or offering our opinions WITHOUT putting other people down. Even when we do this jokingly, it's easy for others to mis-hear the tone.

From some of your earlier comments (e.g., "it was nice of you to give real information") I'm guessing you also see the value of a friendly environment for commenting.

So, can I ask you, and everyone else reading this post, to please make an extra effort to be civil?

Just so Amanda feels better, MOST exterminators cost much more than $400, so that shouldnt be an issue when it comes time for landlord to pay- or have it just taken off the rent...

The landlord should not only pay for the exterminator, he should pay for your lotions and send you flowers for your understanding!

You could have some good points Mr. Green, but they're all lost to your negative tone.

Bedbugger doesn't just say your landlord has to pay. We post extracts of the relevant law.

http://bedbugger.com/2006/10/22/faq-tenants-landlords-owners-and-bedbugs/

We have other cities listed, and will add more as information comes to us.

In Amanda's case, the neighbor's apartment looks like they had bed bugs first, and the bed bugs probably came through the wall. Are they elsewhere in the building, and did they come to the neighbor from another unit? Entirely possible.

The neighbor may not have been allergic to bites, even if he was bitten extensively. Lots of people aren't. However, he may have started to see some, and unfortunately, if people do not react to bites, infestations can become quite bad before people realize.

I don't think bed bugs are partial to women. But maybe women notice them more easily depending on how, um, hairy the guy is? And if you're sensitive to the bites. My husband is very sensitive to them, so we knew right away when we had them. I, on the other hand, must have been bitten too, but had no visible signs. It's about the same for mosquitos, etc, so that doesn't surprise me.

I think the hair on male arms and legs may have something to do with their getting bitten-- I think you're onto something, KatieD.

Re the negative vibe comments about other commentors... I hope my comments earlier weren't interpreted as pretentious or nasty. I just wanted to help Amanda out. I'm all for more humor. In fact, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the 1980s bedbugs game! Obvious puns to be made there!

Hi Amanda,

When I was a public school teacher, we had boatloads of kids with bed bugs. We literally had to help many of these families find new apartments.

I seriously recommend moving. I know it stinks, but it's really easier to throw away stuff that the critters live in and move somewhere else.

Sorry about all of this...I really feel for you! Bah!

This is better than a soap opera!!!

"since bed bugs burrough in woods"

Are you trying to say "burrow" or is this some reference to one of the Boroughs??

While Mr Green's tone may not be warm and fuzzy he has a point.

Amanda does need to take into consideration that she may have exposed another place to bedbugs. Anusha73's response that bedbugs do not stick to people or clothes is completely incorrect - that is exactly how they spread.

There is no proof that Amanda's cute neighbor brought them in. I assume there are other apartments in the building and they are all equally suspect. I do wonder about a landlord who lets other people into an apartment while the tenant is away.

Moving is not the solution unless Amanda is willing to leave all of her belongings behind.

ok these posts are really creeping me out.

Amanda, my sincere sympathy for your situation and a suggestion to help with your bites. Natural food stores sell something called Apis Mellifica that will help with the swelling & itching. Although, thankfully, I have never had bedbug bites, I have found that it helps heal mosquito bites in about 1/2 the time. They say not to eat or drink anything for an hour before or after you take it in order for it to work (I take it before bed). Peace & luck with getting rid of your bugs.

I am so incredibly over the bedbugs posts on Apartment Therapy that I just have to stop reading it.

I can understand the importance of this topic, but honestly, do we need the graphic pictures? It's absolutely disgusting. I read AT during lunch as I imagine many people do.

Guys I really don't know what the hell you're thinking. You're dead to me.

Bedbugs and sleep training really bring out the claws....

I, for one, appreciate the information. I live in a single family house in a rural area but my husband and I travel a lot. Now I know the warning signs and, more importantly, a few simple things that can keep us from ever bringing them in.

If you don't like these posts, skip them. It really is very simple.

Little late to correct, but above, I meant that she could spread to her overnight hosts if precautions are not taken. Not in a judge-y way, but in an FYI way.

I was traveling to Mexico in March with my husband and two babies (ages 2.5 and 6 months). We spent one night in a hotel that was crawling with bed bugs...we saw little black bugs creeping all over the bed, we were naive (this being our first encounter with the horrible creatures) and also very tired and ignored them. 24 hours later I was covered with welts but my husband and babies were home free. Apparently I had a strong allergic reaction and they had none. The welts were there for a month and I still have marks.
The point of the story is that a few people can get bitten but not all of them will have a reaction.