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It's really about time that NY'ers get an Ikea closer to them. This is very very good news.

Has anyone said NOT GREEN yet?

As a Brooklynite I think this probably sucks for people that live in Red Hook - it's going to dramatically change the 'hood....but on the flipside will certainly bring more business into the area which is only positive for some of the local shops and restaurants there.

But thank god I won't have to suffer through Jers anymore to get my Ikea fix.

So SomeSteff, are you telling me that everything that you buy is "green"? I doubt it.

I would rather spend $40.00 on a dining chair made out a veneer that may last me a few years and then I give it to the salvation army than to spend $300.00 on a designer bamboo dining chair that may or may not last a few years through heavy use.

There's being "green" and then there's being sensible. If you ask everyone to go "green", we'd all either be broke or have fugly furniture.

If IKEA didn't build there, it would have become unattainable housing.

My only issue is that if the site is on the water, it seems a waste of a waterfront property.

As per the green debate, IKEA was talking green DECADES ago, long before it became en vogue to do so.

I live in Red Hook. I'm not happy about the IKEA development. The local shops and restaurants in Red Hook are doing just fine! In fact it's kind of a mecca for good food. It's true that if IKEA didn't build there it would have become unattainable housing. But that would not have impacted people's lives in terms of traffic and pollution the way that IKEA will. It's not that I'm against all change - I thought the Fairway, for example, was a positive change... Red Hook needed a good grocery store. But IKEA will have a terrible impact on the lives of locals. I can think of about a hundred projects that would have been better for the hood.

I do like it because it means not having to drive out to Paramus or the island and I approve, for the most part, of IKEA and it's ongoing commitment (as opposed to all the trendjumpers who traded in their SUV's for Priuses 3 years ago so they could one up people at gallery openings) to the environment and fair labor practices.
Really where else can you go and pick up nicely designed modern furnishings at a reasonable price without the nagging worry that they were pieced together by an eight year old chained to a radiator? And yeah, the allen wrenches are a pain but I've yet to purchase a product from IKEA that took me more than a half hour to put together.
No one should be beyond criticism but a lot of the anti-IKEA sentiment I've been coming across lately seems to be nothing more than poorly disguised snobbery no different than what Henry Ford faced when he used mass production to transform the automobile from a plaything of the rich to something that anyone could afford to own. I'm just saying.

Is "unattainable housing" just sour grapes-speak for "expensive, large, doorman apartments with a view of Manhattan"?

Maybe so many of those buildings are being built because there's a demand for them. The people moving to these buildings in Brooklyn are paying $800-1000 psf instead of $1200-2500 psf for comparable construction. I would argue that in the context of the NYC real estate market, that is very "attainable". They are willing to trade location, services, and convenience in order to be able to buy a nicer apartment. Land is cheaper in Red Hook and Greenpoint and LIC than it is in Manhattan.

Ikea has a lot of furniture that quickly ends up in the waste stream because, as we saw yesterday in a post about a table covered in some sort of thin foil, it is cheaply made. They also have some things that are better made, and they have sold fluorescent bulbs at reasonable prices years before any other large chain store thought it necessary to promote them. It's very important to make good choices there.

Sometimes GREEN, sometimes NOT GREEN.

I wish Wende would do an analysis of the NYC IKEA factor...

Less fossil fuel driving to LI/Paramus/Elizabeth,
vs
more driving to Red Hook, although the Bklyn location means shorter trips, public transportation (buses and boats)

What else?

I visit the NJ IKEA once or twice a year... eat swedish meatballs in their lovely dining room & watch the airplanes land and then wander through the "marketplace". After picking up a few impulse items I inevitably leave with a plant or two. For four years when my daughter was in college we would do an annual pilgrimage to Ikea to pick out a rug for her room. I am happy about the new one coming to Redhook but then again I'm not livng next door to it - so I'm probably being selfish.

So Ducati1978, do you ever get jokes?

You know, the trip to Elizabeth is not very far. And they have free buses.

Really, how many people are going to take public transportation to Red Hook to go to IKEA? People don't even take public transportation to go to dinner here.

Yes, I'm sorry, you are being selfish. One trip per year made a tiny bit more convenient (and honestly, Red Hook is not that convenient) does not balance out completely overpowering a neighborhood with trucks and noise.

And by the way, I am by no means anti-IKEA. I own IKEA furniture myself and I think that, particularly with their wooden furniture, which will NOT end up in the waste stream in two years time, they have spearheaded a movement to bring design to the masses. I'm not sure Target would be what it is if not for IKEA.

But no, thanks, I still don't want tractor trailers driving day in and day out down streets that were built for local traffic, menacing kids, destroying a quiet atmosphere, and inviting one-time visitors (which will NOT help local restaurants, btw, most people will just have their swedish meatballs and then take a cab back to Manhattan).

Red Hook is one of the best neighborhoods in NYC, and this is really going to f&*$ things up.

MrGreen - sourgrapes speak aside, you obviously have never felt victimized by 'change'. I'm all for positive change but as a REAL New Yorker (meaning 3rd generation born and raised - not someone who moved here AFTER college from the midwest or "Cali") it is shameful and l think criminal what is going on with all the building and 'regentrification' of communities in New York. It used to be that you couldn't GIVE AWAY an apartment in Williamsburg Brooklyn (now called "Billyburg" by trendy non-New Yorkers) let alone get a yellow cab to cross the bridge to take you there (I would take a cab to the 'Manhattan' side of the bridge and then take the bus or subway over into Brooklyn) and now you can't buy a 1 bedroom apartment for less than $400K, this includes what used be the dreaded Bushwick section.

Since the opening of the Mall on Atlantic Ave & Flatbush - you literally put your life at risk trying to cross the avenue what with all the crazy traffic. Redhook is now the next area to feel the weight of 'change'. Again, i'm all for positive change and renewal but no one is thinking about the people who have lived and raised families in these areas and are being pushed out because the real estate value is now so lucrative. There has even been rumors of turning some of the 'public housing' in these regentrafied areas into co-op's and condo's. Where are the low and middle income New Yorkers supposed to go - seems that unless you are earning a six figure salary you will no longer be able to reside anywhere within 20-40 miles of NYC - that is unless you are willing to have 4 or 5 roommates to help with the $2700-$3500 month rents now being asked in areas where not that long ago you could get a one bedroom apartment anywhere from $500-800 per month.

New York is now polarized state of the have's and have not. It is truly disheartening to witness the raping of New York and not be able to do anything about it.

Apropos...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/arts/design/14wate.html?ref=design

It's funny that dianedvg buys a new rug at Ikea for her daughter's dorm room every year. I'm curious: is it because the old one is worn out, because she's tired of the color, or is this just shopping as sport? This may prove my point about Ikea having cheap stuff or it may speak to the larger issue of rampant consumerism as the American religion.

No...I do not get jokes. In matter of fact, you can see my set up here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/psukid13/sets/72157600311128552/

I can see why people with a lot of Ikea products may get made fun of but if I were to walk into someone's place and it looked like a DWR showcase, I would think that person was a snob. So it goes both ways. I for one choose not to break my bank and be laughed at at the same time.

I remember when Ikea finally decided to open a location inside of the PHiladelphia vicinity. They now have two locations in the Philly area and are less than 15 miles away from each other. At first, residents in the new location balked about a big store opening but it's been 2 years now and it's really made the location explode in businesses, etc. There's less complaining and more shopping in that area. It's also attracted higher property value as well as new housing.

So all in all, I'm sure Ikea does not just throw a dart on a map to decide their next location. I'm sure that a lot of analysis goes into it before hand. No company would want to risk it unless they were certain there would be following/success in the new location.

I'm so glad that you guys put theres photos up. Nate has done a terrific job of chronicling this process, as well as documenting some other amazing industrial spaces that are also in danger. He and my boyfriend Sam (f.trainer on flickr) shoot together a lot and I'm always excited to see their stuff.

I strongly believe that Red Hook is a terrible place for big boxes. And it's not just Ikea going in there. Word on the street is that Bed Bath & Beyond is going to take the extra 70,000 square feet of retail space that the City approved at the site.

This area is largely cut off from public transportation, and the surrounding residential streets are simply not equipped to handle what will be a large influx of traffic. All of those cars and trucks are going to spew pollution and completely destroy the character of what I consider to be one of the most special neighbourhoods in Brooklyn.

I own Ikea furniture and commend a lot of their practices, but I cannot get behind their choice of site. It's frustrating to me that a company I admire has made such a stupid choice. And that they refused to preserve the historic graving dock that was destroyed to make room for a parking lot adds insult to what will be a grave injury to the Red Hook that I love. I have a hard time believing that people who come for the Ikea will stay to check out local businesses, despite what the boosters say.

But no, thanks, I still don't want tractor trailers driving day in and day out down streets that were built for local traffic, menacing kids, destroying a quiet atmosphere, and inviting one-time visitors (which will NOT help local restaurants, btw, most people will just have their swedish meatballs and then take a cab back to Manhattan.

You are right, upon further reflection, I am not happy
about IKEA coming to Redhook!

Diane

Guido, alas, analyzing that one requires background knowledge that I can't acquire before needing to go to work this morning... maybe tonight...

Initially:
--Fuel use (distance vs. public transportation)
--Change of commuting patterns within the neighborhood to accommodate more traffic
--Alternate uses of the land (if it went industrial rather than residential and it's waterfront, I suspect there was a brownfields issue)
--Noise/pollution issues within the neighborhood
--Other development plans -- what else is going on in that area? IKEA usually brings other power plazas with it. Does the Redhook area have a Community Master Plan?
--Ability for the NYC catch basin to support quite a lot of IKEAs (Paramus, Elizabeth, Hicksville...)

Other issues...? Bring 'em on... I had no particular plans for this evening, and the economics of IKEA-fication is something I need to understand eventually anyway.

I wish your sense of humor and reading comprehension were as good as your apartment.

bklyngal, with all due respect, there is no god-given right to live in Manhattan or Red Hook or, for that matter, anywhere in NYC or beyond. If you can't afford it, move to the Bronx, New Jersey, or Pittsburgh. I'll bet if you had a six-figure salary you wouldn't be so worried about it.

Your neighborhood can either get better, or worse. Things don't stay the same. Which do you prefer? You want your neighborhood to degenerate back into a crime-ridden slum with no services and glass all over the street from broken car windows? Or do you want new restaurants and stores, better housing? Your choice.

Funny that you consider all of the improved living conditions "the raping of New York". Do you really want to go back to the 1970s when no one wanted to live here? Have you been to a city like Philadelphia or Detroit that has been losing population because it's so nasty? Is that really what you're advocating?

If you have a problem with living near zoning that allows for industry and big-box stores, work towards changing the codes or move. It's that simple.

Don't just whine about change and how you want everything to be like it was twenty years ago. And if you think people who work hard, and had the discipline to get an education, should be penalized by being forced to subsidize your living expenses, consider moving to Cuba or China.

Ikea Brooklyn is a boon for everyone in NYC except those who actually live in Red Hook. Those poor shlubs will get very little out of the deal except better access to Manhattan (since I think Ikea is going to run ferries) and, of course, fabu access to Ikea. But my sympathy for them is not going to keep me from shopping there.

As for "unattainable housing"--bklyngal said it all better than I could.

No...I just try to act stupid so people like yourself can get an ego boost by trying to dumb another person down.

Settle down, Beavis.

The streets of Red Hook have historically been filled with industry. Granted, the traffic patterns from the IKEA will be different from heavy industry these can hardly be thought of as typical residential streets.

I abhor the idea of a wealthy investor pillaging its way through a quiet, residential neighborhood. However, let's put things into perspective: Redhook has historically been zoned for predominately industrial purposes. I commend and admire the people who have been taking the opportunity to invest in Red Hook's solid, affordable real estate in what had become a derelict industrial neighborhood -- residents and shop owners have done an amazing job of revitalizing the area and creating a lovely community, free of chain stores and full of refined little shops and eateries -- but there has to be a place for enterprises like this, and let's face it - they were there first. IKEA will be neighbor to the already entrenched Home Depot, Lowes and Jetro, not to mention docking and launching cruise liners and scrap metal refineries, just to name a few. At least IKEA isn't misappropriating Eminent Domain in a thinly veiled attempt to convince people that they have the community's best interests at heart, like a wealthy investor who will go unnamed (sorry, I digress.) I'm not saying that there aren't some problematic issues at hand (e.g. that whole asbestos calamity, etc.) but as far as big business goes, I feel like IKEA does a decent job of keeping things above board. And last, but not least, at least their construction won't be blocking anyone's view of the Manhattan skyline.

I also live in Red Hook and completely agree with what betsbillabong, bklyngal and bird and beef have said.
The Ikea is the wrong project for that site.

wende in phoenix: there is a community plan for red hook, and it was ignored by the community board and city planning for the Ikea project.

The Ikea is situated next to a very large park with many playing fields for soccer, baseball and track. It's also located across the street from a local urban organic farm. Something like 10,000 car trips to the Ikea per weekend have been estimated. The added traffic will bring pollution that will affect the health of children in the neighborhood (already a very high asthma rate in the area), impact the quality of the food grown at the farm, and I think it will lower the quality of life in general in the neighborhood.

Ducati 1978, thanks for the link. Made my lunch hour worth while.

Bklyngal - you made a comment that I interpret to mean that Mid-westerners and Californians, etc. just wouldn't get it. I'm not saying that I've never gotten a little self-righteous about being a New Yorker myself, but I hate to break it to you - New Yorkers aren't born with an extra gene that gives them a savoir-faire that the rest of the country hasn't a clue about. New York by its very nature is a city of immigrants and transplants, and simply being 3rd generation doesn't make your opinion any more significant than anyone else's here.

But back to the whole IKEA-Red Hook issue - this is New York City. It has always been a city of growth and expansion and CHANGE. I completely sympathize with the pain one might experience when something meaningful disappears or is replaced by something distinctly different from, and oftentimes not as pleasing as, something that signifies stability or nostalgia for you. I honestly get it. But things DO change. And sometimes it's in our best interest to have them change.

I completely agree with everything MrGreen so eloquently laid out above. Taking a quote from him, "If you have a problem with living near zoning that allows for industry... work towards changing the codes or move."

MrGreen - its pretty evident to me that you are a narrow mined and arrogant, snob. You're all for "greening" but have no empathy for people. As I stated, i'm not against change, in fact I welcome it and am happy to see how Bedford Ave in Greenpoint has florished into the "Greenwich Village" of Bklyn. However, change should occur with a conscience and consideration for those who are there and those that came before you and with the historical preservation of the area maintained.

The areas that you say will "degenerate into a crime-ridden slum with no services and glass all over" did not get scorched and burned into oblivion in the 70s and 80s as you seem to think they would today without regentrification - these areas survived and rebounded through the worst period in NYC history and thats no thanks to regentrification but to the heart and soul of the community (meaning people) who struggled to raise their families in their communities the majority minorities and factory laborers. Yes there was and is a need for newer structures, homes, stores, offices, but regentrification is not maintaining the history of the areas - what is being done is changing the whole landscape and skyscape what with 20 story buildings in areas where the 3 story and 6 story building is the historical landscape of the area.

It is also unconscienable that real estate developers who have overdeveloped NYC and are now looking to score in Bklyn, LIC and Astoria are going knocking door to door offering less than 1/4 of the amount for the properties that they would get in the selling of 3 condos in their skyscraper developments to the very people who chose to turn their community around then to follow in the footsteps of those in the Flatbush area in the 60's and early 70's when they ran to the suburbs of Long Island known as "white flight".

For your edification I do earn a six figure salary - as do MANY of the people I grew up with in Brooklyn during the 70s and 80s (surgeons, lawyers, professors, directors and managers in NYC, NYS and US government). Fortunately for me and many of my friends we can move anywhere in NYS or anywhere in the country if we chose to - emphasis on "chose" - but what gentrification is doing is pushing out those who chose not to leave their community by outpricing them not only of their homes but their supermarkets, delis, and neighborhood stores.

How thrilled would you be to have your friends and loved ones displaced from their life long homes, communities and culture. Obviously you have never heard of the addage " to walk in the other person's shoes".

bklyngal,

Without the type of change you describe, New York would look like this:

http://tinyurl.com/3d823l

Think about it.

I am genuinely sorry that you're so angry about, and unaccepting of, positive change.

bklyngal,
No one ever thought Jane Jacobs could defeat Robert Moses, but she did and kept that dreaded expressway from bisecting Greenwich Village. Take that fire and passion you have for your neighborhood and fight the good fight. It may be too late to stop Ikea, but you can help keep other big box retail stores out.

Just out of curiosity -- and I'm not saying this in a snide way -- for those of you who are opposed to Red Hook for IKEA, can you think of another, more suitable location for IKEA in NYC proper?

That's the problem that they had back when they were deciding on a location for the Ikea store in Philly. Eventually, they ended up using a very large lot that's right on the water (old dock). I believe they had to tear down a few old factories as well. I would have to say that with the Ikea where it is now, it's definitely bringing life into that particular area in Philly where a lot of the factories were abandoned and at the same time there are neighborhoods next to this empty area that is now benefiting.

Mason - I take it you didn't stick with the original link and explored beyond? LOL.

Hi Harley,

I'm no expert (though I did choose Urban Studies and my concentration in college, with an emphasis on planning and preservation), but I think that some of the formerly industrial areas of Sunset Park would have been a good fit. That's much closer to subway lines, making mass transit to the store a viable option for customers and employees, and it's close enough to the BQE to be more convenient for cars and delivery trucks, mitigating the need to route traffic through residential streets. I have heard that Ikea was initially looking at what is now the Lowe's site in Gowanus, but rejected it as too small.

I'm not advocating against all change, and I'm certainly not of the opinion that every old factory and warehouse site should be preserved, but I do believe that massive projects like this should appropriate to their environment, and that Red Hook was a poor choice.

That is, I chose Urban Studies AS my concentration. I will learn to type one day...

I promise to ride my bike to IKEA.
Srsly.

wende, I soooooo wish I had time to be your research monkey on this charting project!
But I can't tonight!

bird and beef,

interesting. actually I don't know sunset park very well, but my impression was that it had always been a much more residential area, no? Now I'm curious. Maybe I'll have to bike out there and check it out.

MrGreen:

Those of us reds who don't take you up on your generous suggestion that we move to China or Cuba often choose to live in places like New York. If that bothers you, I suggest that you take your McCarthyite baiting to Peoria.

Ducati 1978, I did and happy to have done so...it was a treat.

It's funny that dianedvg buys a new rug at Ikea for her daughter's dorm room every year. I'm curious: is it because the old one is worn out, because she's tired of the color, or is this just shopping as sport? This may prove my point about Ikea having cheap stuff or it may speak to the larger issue of rampant consumerism as the American religion.

posted by MrGreen on 2007-06-14 11:50:

Basically, the rug was shot by the end of the year. Since she changed rooms each year we bought an inexpensive rug each year. However, she never replaced her bedding, lamps,
bookcases, etc. just the rug. Dorms rooms get alot of foot traffic.

Once the fire cools, those who oppose will be waiting in line with everyone else. They will also see how the neighborhood will benefit from increased foot traffic. I would probably kick and scream too, but know from experience once people usually see the benefits firsthand, then tune will change. Change is hard for most people and understandably so.

X_X, I'd rather just stay here and work against freeloaders!

Mr. Green, I realize that this may come as a shock to you, but not everyone who earns less than a quarter of a million dollars a year is a freeloader. Many of us are even (perhaps you should sit down for this) educated and hard-working. And I'm referring to those of us who are, for example, middle-management, small business owners, students, teachers, freelancers, writers, and artists...not those people in the service industry who make life cushy for you AND for us peons. It goes without saying that *those* people don't deserve to live close to their jobs or to have access to any of the cultural pleasures of the city.

You're absolutely right: all of us middle and lower class people are not *entitled* to live within any part of the city that is convenient or has nice views. We should all scuttle off to somewhere we can enjoy our three-hour round-trip commutes, and leave Manhattan, Brooklyn, and much of Queens to you and the tourists so that you can enjoy a New York-flavored theme park rather than a city.

If there's no subway access to the Red Hook location, it's only going to be people in cars. THIS Upper West Sider will be going to Elizabeth, NJ, because I can get on the C train down to Port Authority and take the IKEA shuttle bus, which has room underneath it to schlep stuff back. But even that's kind of a big deal to do.

I have to say that I pretty much agree with MrGreen about the inevitability of change, though. But seriously, when something like Wal-Mart tried to invade New York, people balked enough to make it not happen.

When K-Mart came here there was less hullaballoo; I'm not sure why, but since their two Manhattan stores don't seem to have drastically altered the architectural face of the city (methinx that originally there had been some kind of department store on the Astor Place site), so that's probably why there was less of a human cry.

I wonder what will happen when they eventually turn Governor's island into a casino resort. THAT thread will be a fun one to read (FYI, I think/hope/practically-pray that I'm kidding, since it's not that easy to tell when people are kidding).

if you like those construction photos, here are some great pieces from the Atlantic Station development in ATL. It's the largest brown field redevelopment in history. It's also home to...IKEA :-)

http://www.coa.gatech.edu/~rd107/cover%20pages/cover1as.htm

its sad to me that a middle to lower class area will now be built up even more and exposed and it will change. I have to say though that i love the new fairway i love fairway and go quite often so maybe i can't talk to this point. I guess i would like to see something positive besides check out jobs being brought into the area. Does anyone know if thats happening? or will happen with ikea? The Middle school there is horrific. My friend taught there and said rats and mice were rampant. Ikea can donate some furniture and money to the schools there and maybe they will be better recieieved. Just a thought.

Cassis, I have no idea what you're talking about. You're putting words in my mouth.

Gemion, Ikea furniture won't hold up in a school. However, Ikea could adopt a school and give it money and send all the ghetto kids to Sweden for the summer and in return the school can let them paint the building blue and yellow.

This would be a good way for the city to improve the schools. Instead of PS 34 Henry the Famous Writer Elementary School, they could have PS 34 the Ikea Elementary School. The Walmart High PS 239 would be have that Walmart smiley face like polka-dots and American Airlines can adopt the Aviation High. Disney can get the performing arts school. It works for stadiums, why not schools???

WIDMERPOOL - are those apts across from ikea the ikea apartments? (that question was a very hard one to pose in an easily understood structure...) they look very ikea.

As a former Red Hook resident, I want to reiterate how poorly set up this neigborhood is for traffic. It will be incredibly difficult to accommodate the customers safely and quickly as there are few ways in and out of Red Hook, and they are often already jammed. Additionally, INDUSTRIAL space is not the same as commercial. The neighborhood is used to huge trucks lumbering through, but it's nothing like the volume IKEA will create, and professional truck drivers are a lot different from confused people in cars (I can't tell you how many people needed help getting to Fairway, which is the easiest place to find in the neighborhood).

Also, the waterfront location is potentially shortsighted as the neighborhood floods constantly, particularly in the area around the projects, and is well below the flood line. We got rejected for renter's insurance due to "potential for natural disaster". New York's due for a hurricane at some point, and IKEA had better have a very good emergency plan for evacuating all their customers and people out of Red Hook if one arrives. I doubt that many people will deal with the bus to get to IKEA, and I too think Sunset Park would have been a far more appropriate location.

Not green? What about the 1/2 acre of solar and the 1/2 acre of vegetated green roof, plus minimizing the hardscape through under-building parking and opening the waterfront with a vegetated esplanade park? I'm conflicted about this development because I love the quirky, scrappy, somewhat desolate solitude of the Red Hook waterfront, but this is actually the greenest big box in the region (country?) by far and the greenest thing to rise on the NYC waterfront excepting the magnificent Solaire in Manhattan and a far cry greener than the paving and contaminants slumping into the water on this site pre-IKEA.