apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

WOW. What I get from this thread is that there's a big gap between classes in America. Though I thing the perception of the gap is bigger than the gap itself.

You guys who are having to scrap your way through life now, don't you think you'll be generous to your kids when your life is more comfortable? (An I'm not assuming apartment girl is getting support from her folks; that a professed journalist would make such an assumption-with a certain attitude-is an affront to the profession.)

Other than that, this is a nice story and I'm looking forward to following it.

holly/decor8--

im in the process of moving to brooklyn (from cape cod, hi neighbor!) and we used a real estate agent who charged a 15% brokers fee. i tried craigslist but got very few phonecalls back, from people who weren't willing to work with two poor recent college grads-- not to mention everything on craigslist is $1000+ for gross apartments. the real esate agent was personable, helpful, and found us a place for only $875-- so I just figure the 15% is the difference between our actual rent and what we would have paid if we had not used the broker.

and as for the whole trustfund baby argument: even though i'm poor as dirt I have plenty of friends whose parents help them out; do i mind? certainly not, because i reap the benefits too. theyre usually willing to front for fun/expensive activities because we're friends, and they've got the means to do it. and also, it's not uncommon to make $50,000/year right out of college-- just major in chemistry.

Annie - I guess I just remember back when I was fresh out of college with a poorly paying
entry level job, after student loan payments, food, etc., I could just about scrimp together enough rent money for my share of a 3-bedroom apt. in an expensive neighborhood.

Congrats!
I'm in the same boat! Looking for my first apartment in Toronto.

I'm gonna blog about the whole thing too - with photos.

Wow - that place looks fantastic! I love the beautiful floors and all the light, and how lucky to have a kitchen and bathroom in such great shape at move in :)
Congratulations and enjoy your new home!

The other broker might have a right to get mad. In many jurisidictions, landlords have to review applications in order and then either accept or reject them. That means if the other broker got their application in first, the landlord has to accept or reject it. What this means effectively, is that landlords (in those jurisdictions where this rule applies) cannot hold onto one application and then wait to see if a "better" offer comes in.

Its designed as a form of pro-tenant consumer protection to prevent this exact kind of bidding war between tenants.

I'd also note, that the same rule applies in many jurisdictions in the residental for-sale market - i.e. owner/sellers have to accept or reject an offer to purchase in turn.

I don't know what the rule is in NYC, but if it applies, then the broker DOES have a right to be upset.

Wow! It looks fabulous! Lots of character to play with. It's clean and sleek to start with... though I don't know how a college grad can afford it!

(but I guess not everyone is a farm kid from the midwest with no trust fund! - I'm 36 and my mortgage is less than your half of the rent - But have fun!)

I'm so looking forward to your adventures!

I'm in exactly the same boat! Except, I'm living myself in Brooklyn. Good luck to you!

I'm going to chronicle the whole thing in my blog (which I sort of didn't know what to do with until now).

I hope everything goes more smoothly for you now - we beginners gotta stick together!!

"(but I guess not everyone is a farm kid from the midwest with no trust fund! - I'm 36 and my mortgage is less than your half of the rent - But have fun!)"

Ha, no kidding click chick! I don't think I know anyone living in Manhattan at this point. Plenty of Brooklynite and Queens, but no Manhattanites. Is everyone in Manhattan a trustafarian these days?

Congrats!

Good luck though with those five flights when you're coming home drunk, carrying lots of stuff, or trying to move furniture in. Our apartment's 2 flights up and even that can get tiresome.

As for the broker, it sounds like she had a right to be pissed. As a previous poster said, I don't think the management company is really allowed to do what they did. There were other people vying for our apartment, but since we were the first to get our paperwork in, we got it. I'm sure you'd be pissed if you didn't get the apartment because someone who bidded after you agreed to pay $50 more. Who's to stop the management company from upping the price even more?

Brokers are crazy. I once cancelled an application (as i was told i could) half way through as the neighbourhood was just too dodgy to walk home alone at night. A day later "I" had posted an add on craigslist with my email and office phone number with what sounded like the greatest apartment of all time. My phone ran off the hook for 30 minutes and I was terrified as to what this clown might be doing with my social security number.

But in a good postscript, he turned up in my local bar a week later and i took great pleasure in pouring a pint over his head. Alls well, ends well!

dave -

i live in manhattan, and up until recently, in a fair expensive studio all by myself. i paid for every penny of rent and had a low paying job. It was worth it to live in gramercy, have a nice apt, but skimp a little on other things like cab rides, going out, eating out, etc.

we all just have different priorities i guess.

Don't worry; I live on the sixth floor of a walk-up, and my glutes are in better shape than ever before!! It was exhausting at first but you get used to it. The only problem is that after the first visit, several friends aren't so willing to come back!

i live on the 4th floor of a walk-up -- look at it this way -- your legs will be in great shape (but be careful of your knees.)

good luck with your new apt! lot's of nice potential there.

and yes, can we put to death the myth that only trust fund babies live in manhattan?

did no one notice the great satisfaction clairepetrol received when she got to pour beer on the broker's head??

awesome!

although, the broker's version of revenge was quite crafty too...

i've always lived in manahattan since i graduated - 5 apts. and i never paid more than $1100 to share... manhattan isn't just for the trustafarians!

oh, and i also just got a rent-stabalized apt in chelsea --- through craigslist!

congrats! it looks AWESOME. i'm signing the papers for an apartment in Brooklyn tomorrow that I also got through CitiHabitats-- they got some bad reviews online, but we had great luck too (similar story, she showed us some awful places first then a GORGEOUS place, rent stabilized, good neighborhood, etc.)

Even though it's an expensive fee, it's been totally worth it. Can't wait to see what you do with the place!

Everytime a post like this comes up I have to remind myself "perspective". I'm not in the same place or situation (my monthly salary is $1200!); my interest is in how these folks make the transitions to a first apartment and how they adapt to their new setting.

"adapt" is key word, Norma.

even with your salary, if you were to relocate to NYC you would some how, some way Make It Happen.. that is part of the adventure we have to offer here.

The only reason why we live to suffer here is because the Pros far outweigh the Cons.

and thank goodness for Aparement Therapy or else we'd be suffering in Ikea/GothicCabinet monotony!

I'm excited to see what Justine does with her new pad....

I always love to hear how some folks think "it's totally worth it"

Some times it just isn't.

aww if only you knew, T.. if only you knew...

I apologize for any hard feelings.

What I should have said was... you all clearly never lived on entry-level journalist salaries while paying back student loans!

(I remember when my bi-weekly paycheck was around $500 and my student loan payments were $240. Ah - the salad days!)

I was on the same page as you, click chick, but maybe it's because I'm also in your field. I was left wondering how an intern had a $2400 budget for a first apartment. I guess she's not too sick of her parents to accept their help. Oh, and I live in Manhattan, albeit in an apartment much smaller than the above, and am not a trust-fund baby. I was lucky enough to move in with someone who had a nice, rent-stabilized place in Harlem.

aw, they just got their first apartment and they are excited about it. everyone has a different baseline of what's affordable and what's "worth it."

My first apartment was an unheated basement flat in central London with coin-operated electricity and no telephone. it cost about twice as much as my mom was paying to rent a decent-sized house in the suburbs of san francisco. but to live in central London? with no parents? and to walk to work and school and pretty much anywhere in London? priceless. we paid for it through student loans and two-pound-per-hour waiting jobs and we loved it. we ate a lot of soup.

coin-operated electricty! i have no concept of what that could be like. was there a change machine in the building?

so far it sounds like, post-graduation, a lot of people survived on a healthy diet of soup and salad - not bad!

for some reason i have always believed there was a law that all buildings with more than 6 floors had to have an elevator -- are there many 7+ floored walk-ups?

It possible that older buildings are grandfathering in and only need to have an elevator installed if the owner applies for a "major" building permit for renovations/rehab.

That's the way it generally works under U.S. building codes. Otherwise, every time the building code changed, owners would have to renovate their buildings to meet code.

miss-- coin-op electricity was insanity. there was a meter on the wall in the living room and we had to feed it 50p coins and turn the handle. the 50p coins aren't round, so they'd always get stuck. we kept a butter knife next to the meter for such occassions. you had to be prepared.. there was nowhere to get change after about 9:30 at night. it was a basement flat too, so *pitch* black in the daytime if you didn't have change for the meter.

it is interesting to have such a direct connection to how much electricity you are using. washing clothes was really expensive, and we couldn't afford to keep the water heater on all the time; you had to wake up 45 minutes before you wanted a shower and turn the water heater on.

I will never again complain about my PG&E bill.

WHOA.

wow.

that is some REAL 'adaptation' skill you got there Aquarabbit! makes a great story to tell your kids, grandkids, and fellow blog commenters...

some would say working in publishing isn't worth it given the starting salaries...

i know when i was just starting out in new york my friends in publishing were making far less than i was, and i was working for a non-profit dance company! they were also treated poorly, by and large, but it's what they wanted to be doing. none of them, however, are still in publishing 10 years later. but it was their choice to make.

why anyone on this site would make judgmental comments about someone else's priorities is beyond me. be it what they earn, how they earn it, how they spend it, or where they live, why can't we all just get along?

Remember people, getting help from your parents is a moral failing. So is having money. In fact, anyone who has it easier than you should be looked down upon.

I remember when I was sharing a card board box with five other college graduates. We had to burn discarded copies of the Post for heat and take turns shooing away the dogs that tried to piss on our home. But at least we weren't lame paying job-having loosers like all you jobafarians. I didn't get my BA in basket weaving to sell out to Big Wicker man!

Ha, no kidding click chick! I don't think I know anyone living in Manhattan at this point. Plenty of Brooklynite and Queens, but no Manhattanites. Is everyone in Manhattan a trustafarian these days?

Wait...I thought all the trustafarians were in Williamsburg/Brooklyn???

I've lived in Manhattan for about 15 years now. Currently in a UES rent-stab one bedroom. Never had a trust fund, never will!

And I can honestly say, I don't know one single person who has a trust fund. Not one! Maybe I don't run in the right circles...everyone I know just works and pays their rent. But I guess everyone has their own perception of how people in NYC live.

I'm looking forward to reading about this journey. However, perhaps someday AT could do a companion piece that will represent a tighter-budgeted first apartment experience. I graduated two years ago, and all of my friends pay below $1,000 per month. We share, we live in Brooklyn, Queens, and Washinton Heights, we scrimp, we grab stuff off the street as we stumble home from a bar (or more likely, a friend's apartment, since bars are usually too expensive). We have pot-luck dinners because we can't afford restaurants. Yet somehow, my friends places are filled with cool stuff that represents their own vibrant personal style. It seems like in a way, it means more because each item has to be so carefully selected.

When I painted my own kitchen and living room (watermelon pink in the kitchen, inspired by last year's I've Got Color contest), the paint came from Home Depot's incorrectly-mixed color shelf, where a gallon is about $4 (if memory serves). I'd love to see what someone in a similarly cost-prohibitive situation would do to beautify their first real living space.

Justine, congratulations on a new lovely home!! I love your new polished floors and the kitchen tiles. The 5 flights might be off-putting at first, but when you think of your nice pad to come home to in the evenings, you'll be motivated to make the walk upstairs. Only comment would be to try grocery shopping with your friend to "split the load" of carrying it all back!!

I look forward to reading more about your decorating adventures...

max, my point wasn't to idealize that kind of suffering.. my point is that we all make choices about where and how we live and this site should be about that broad spectrum of choices. living that way (esp for a first apartment) certainly taught me something, but now in my mid-30s, there's no way i would want to live like that again!

Whoa! I didn't mean to start a thread of criticism!!!

I was merely pointing out that I had a difficult time relating to the situation.
I've never been to NYC much less lived there... and those of us in the landlocked states often marvel about the cost of living in NYC.

God forbid the rich people be exposed to the reality that many people can't relate to their lives.

If you can afford the lifestyle - more power to you. I suppose if I added my car and insurance onto my mortgage and HOA dues we’re maybe not that far apart – and equals the difference.

It’s not a criticism – Mr/Ms Defensive – I just think everyone benefits from different perspectives.

I think I paid $290 a month for my first rental and my dad was appalled because as landlord of a FULL HOUSE WITH A YARD he collected less in rent than what I was paying.

Moxie's got Moxie! Hear, hear. Let's face it - the readership of most design-oriented magazines, blogs, etc. tends to skew towards a middle income demographic (at worst) and prolly to a higher-end one generally. I don't fault that at all.

However, given the relatively limited class mobility in this country, that means someone who is currently middle class or upper-middle class is, statistically speaking, likely to come from a similar background, including all of the social mores, cultural biases and economic assumptions that entails. This isn't necessarily true of a generation or two ago, but since the decline of union membership and the death of manufacturing, its become increasingly the norm in the last 20 years.

For some $2400 a month (even shared with a roomate) is, with some scrimping, an "affordable" first apartment fresh out of college. For others, its an impossible burden, given the $1200 first month plus $1200 last month plus $1200+ security plus several months worth broker's fee one has to have access to on the upfront. Even the predetermined choice of wanting a UES apartment bespeaks certain class-based preferences and biases.

So yes, I agree - I'd love to see some of these house tour/look what I've done with my space type of things to maybe intentionally include folks who - with scrimping, potlucks and coupon clipping - are just able to pay for a sub-$1000 a month rent for space in Wash. Heights, Queens, the Bronx and elsewhere.

I came to town in '97 with $3000. I'd spent the previous year living at home, working f/t and also p/t. I even took a promotion at a research firm and travelled to set up a new office for the extra pay for being out of town.

Found a fifth floor walk-up studio in Wash. Hts. for $500, rent stabilized and stayed six years. It was the isolation that moved me to Brooklyn. Not many people want to casually visit that far up town. The stairs - and the steep hills - did nothing to prevent my post-college weight gain. And being relatively poor and inconveniently situated hastened it.

But I didn't need a co-signer and could pay my own bills.

What is UES - is that something like rent-control?

(Another thing landlockers don't comprehend!)

click chick, UES = upper east side of Manhattan

Ya know, reading some of these posts from folks who like me are, ahem, a few years out of colllege kinda depresses me.

I can remember getting out of college in the mid-90s in Boston. My roomate and I were able to easily find a 2 BR apartment in a funky neighborhood, close to transit, lots of restaurants, bars, etc. nearby for like $650 a month. Today, that same apt. in that same hood probably goes for around $1700 a month, 2.5 times what is did just a little over 10 years ago. Yet, if I had today that same just-out-of-college job I had back then, I seriously doubt it would pay 2.5 times what it did then.

Our cities really have changed a lot in a short period of time and sometimes I wonder if we realize how much we've lost.

I LOVE NY

It's 2400 split by two people in Manhattan. 1200/month is not a HUGE amount of rent to spend in Manhattan, LA or San Francisco. Moxie...that's 200.00 difference. She may be able to walk to everything without taking hte subway or cabs. How much $$ do your friends spend on commuting?

And who's to say this girl isn't going to have to clip coupons. Maybe she's worked her ass off since the age of 16, worked her way through college and saved a lot of money on her own. Maybe she's working two jobs. Maybe she's making money on the side selling artwork or doing freelance. And maybe she's scrimping to get by and cutting coupons out to pay for her potlucks.

That this girl is paying 1200/month rent somehow makes her a trustfund kid, or somehow rich, or a leech to her parents, just slays me.

I am SO sorry for people who did not have parents who were able to help them out in anyway in their adventures into adulthood. But does that somehow make you better than people who have had a little help from their parents?

And to folks who live outside of Manhattan, SF or LA -- I live in Los Angeles. I would probably be paid less than half what I am now if I lived in the midwest. So I'm able to live here in a rent controlled apartment that would cover a house mortgage in other parts of the country, and pay enough car insurance that would pay for the property tax on a home.

So click Chick, "God forbid the rich people be exposed to the reality that many people can't relate to their lives."...if being able to afford 1200/month in some parts of the country makes them "rich people" -- God Forbid -- I think you need to get out to other parts of the country.

I have a question for Justine, Charmian, and any others who can help me understand the finder's fees for rentals in NYC.

I've heard of these enormous fees that people pay which can amount to thousands of dollars. Is this true? Why do people pay this?

We don't pay anything but first, last, and (maybe) security in Boston, and of course, either a 1/2 month or a full month's rent as a fee to the agent (although I've had instances where the landlord paid 50% or 100% of the agent fee).


Holly

Shari - Why the negativity? Did some of the questions cut too close to home?

First off, Moxie noted all her friends pay LESS than $1000 a month. By simple math, that means MORE than a $200 a month difference. If someone is paying $900 a month rent, then the difference is $300, which IS a lot of money to many people. Esp. if you are talking about someone who is just able to afford a $900 a month rent. That $300 difference would represent a 33 PERCENT cost differential. If your rent increased 33 percent, would that be a big deal? I think it would.

And for folks further down on the scale, that $300 can be a lot of money. The electric and gas bills don't come with a rebate just because you don't make as much money. Ditto for the grocery bills and subway fare, etc. (I come from the Northeast, and I find it utterly laughable the idea that she'd be able to avoid having to take the subway or cabs. Limiting cab rides to occasional use - sure. But the subway? Puh-leeze. When you live in a place like New York or Boston, subway riding is unavoidable, even IF you are lucky enough to live walking distance from the office. And I guarantee you - when coming out of the bar at 2 AM on a Saturday in the middle of January and needing to get from the LES to UES - you sure as shit are either taking that subway, or more likely, hailing that cab.)

That $1200 a month is not chump change, recent grad or not. That's a $45-50,000 a year salary to be affordable, and that's not even taking into consideration the possibility of $500+ a month student loan payments. Which, ironically enough, a person who can only afford sub-$1,000 a month rent is probably MORE likely to have higher student loan debt burdens while at the same time earning less. People at the lower end get it both ways - they are more likely to have had to borrow more to go to college and at the same time less likely to have the influential social networks needed to get a good paying job.

decor8,

the broker system in nyc is a significant industry. the situation is cultivated so that it is difficult - but not impossible or unlikely - for a person to locate a good, affordable apartment on their own. it is so much easier for landlord's to ensure filling the space fast and with a good tenant by outsourcing the screening work to a broker. and renters are often forced into the system because only brokers have tied up the exclusive with the landlord so you won't find the good listings in the paper.

this is nyc so there are always people desperate to live here - which means we renters foot the bill. i found my first place quite by accident, looking over someone's shoulder on the train, i caught an ad in the post direct from the management company. my current place i found thru a broker after visiting a different listing of hers (from craigslist) that was ridiculously small. my fee was a month's rent which wasn't so bad. but i had very little time to move.

you can avoid broker's but it can be an exhausting, demoralizing search.

Holly,

As crazy as it might sound it is very true. Most agencies or brokers charge a fee of 2-3% or higher of your total YEARLY rent. I rented two apartments in NY and never saw any fees for less than that. Occasionally you can get lucky and find something on Craigslist but as you can probably imagine this is pretty rare. As much as it pained me to pay that the truth is the brokers have control of the good apartments - and I lived in Manhattan and Brooklyn. We tried to go the Craigslist route but everything we saw was total crap. Also, since good apartments are so hard to come by you will never find the lanlord paying for the fee and you have to come to with check in hand ready to sign that lease the instant the apartment is available. As other posters have stated, it's part of the "beauty" of living in NY!

KG

After living with roommates all over brooklyn and new jersey for years, at 23, I got my first studio in prime chelsea for only $850 per month (all utilites included!) That was 3 years ago, and I paid $4k in broker's fee. Let me tell you, soo worth it. I had to beg, steal and borrow, but I am sure glad now the crazy fee didn't stop me back then.
So there are good deals in manhattan!!!, you just have to look. And yes, I agree with comments not satisfied with the intern salary to rent ratio, hello, $1200 is super expensive, add utilities and expensive UES supermarkets. Not cool.

people get over yourselves..who really cares what you think about her finances...it's NUNYA - none of your business!

Justine, i look forward to seeing your progress

"I am SO sorry for people who did not have parents who were able to help them out in anyway in their adventures into adulthood. But does that somehow make you better than people who have had a little help from their parents?"

It doesn't make you better but it sure does make your achievements more worthwhile - after all if you've had to work two or three jobs, scrimp and save and you achieve good things without anyone elses help then that achievement is worth more than someone who didn't have to work and had no limit on their spending - just stands to reason - from ATs point of view its the difference between a beautiful apartment put together from kerb finds and judicious saving over many years to reflect a personality and someone who buys an entire room from a shop and installs it without any blood sweat and tears of their own - it shows character that someone can have obstacles put in their way and still overcome them

As for coin-operated electricity meters they are very common here in the UK - I have very fond memories of trying to scrape together enough change to make 50p and then trying to find a shop that was open that would exchange your change for a 50p piece so you could have heat and water until the post brought your next cheque in the morning - fun times!


"I always love to hear how some folks think 'it's totally worth it'. Some times it just isn't."

If its NY its ALWAYS worth it

I'd also like to add to decor8's question about brokers the point that apartments are extremely scarce in NYC. I live in the West Village, and the vacancy rate here is currently less than 1%, whereas in other cities it is usually at least in the double digits.

As much as I loathed doing it, paying a broker has turned out to be one of the best decisions I made at the time (even if I had to cash out some of my savings to do it). I've lived in the same place for many years, with minimal rent increases, and I love it -- despite the cramped space and extreme 'character' that comes with 25 layers of paint.

Dear VioletsRose,
So in effect you're saying anyone with inherited wealth, or help from someone else (including, I suppose, marrying someone who makes more than you and can therefore make your life a little easier) demands sacrifices in the character department. Only people who have fought their way up have character? Tell that to FDR! or Proust. Or J. Robert Oppenheimer. Or anyone who has contributed their "character" to our city or nation or culture and just happened to have a little help from home. What they've accomplished isn't worth as much? Are their achievements really less worthwhile? Talk about classicism.....

I'd also like to add that the UES is one of the few neighborhoods with more normal vacancy rates, so it is possible to find affordable places there, especially farther from the subway. Many people implied that the neighborhood being snooty, but there are a lot of recent grads living there.

But I agree with Jaye, Justine's finances are none of our business. And who are we to judge her situation? Still, it will be fun to watch her decorate the apartment from scratch!

Thank you AN. I worked my ass off through my first rent-stabilized Manhattan apartment. I would NOT want my children to have such difficulty. Difficulty and a tough living alone does not build character. Judging from these posts...bitterness perhaps.

This is a great idea and I am looking forward to seeing how the apartment shapes up. Thank you also for sharing the broker story...such is the way in the city. It is very competitive and nearly impossible (and heartbreaking) to find a NYC apt without one. Then again, my broker hit on me but wow did I get a great starter apartment.

Almost forgot....thanks to my six floor walk up, I have amazing sunlight, beautiful views and buns 'o steel. It is worth it.

Wow. Thanks for all the information on how brokering and life in NYC works.
Being from the midwest, and now in a mountain state, one can only glean so much from movies and sitcoms when they make mention of such things.

Anyway, as it's explained to me... this young lady and her friend are VERY lucky to have found this place - no matter how they end up affording it.

And while I didn't intend for this to become a 'class' discussion - it has been very informative and interesting.
May I just say to the person who suggests that I get out more... have you ever left the east or west coasts?
I still chuckle at the story of my friend from South Dakota who went on a class trip to NYC and while they were in a souvenior shop, the guy behind counter, upon learning where they were from asked in astonishment, "South Dakota? how did you even get here?" and looked stupified when she explained she simply boarded a plane!

My sister had a similar experience in the late 70's when her group visited NYC from Nebraska... someone asked if we had TVs, still used outhouses, or were still fighting indians!

If you've never left Manhattan - you're not as cultured as you think you are.

What's most hilarious about these threads is the "I wish the blog would realize that not everyone has TONS of money, there should be more about decorating and living cheaply" whining that comes out.

I would argue that the vast majority of articles center around this. Every time someone comes across something they decide is "expensive" you'd think the last ten posts were about how to find a good butler, the proper grade of diamonds to use on your backsplash, and why everyone should have at least three full silver services.

BTW, for my diamond backsplash I went with VVS conflict diamonds straight from Sierra Leone.

Everyone in New York always seems to find "a deal", believe they got their place below market value. This is becuase the market moves so fast, anyplace you've been living in for more than a month would probably rent for more now! Somehow, working a non-profit job, for my last year B'lyn I was able to live alone in a one-bedroom for $1000/mo at Carroll and Smith! I had a deal. Its all relative. Also, in my twenties, apartments circulated among friends, names were faked on leases to avoid increases, and for two years I walked through my roomates bedroom to get to my own. BUT I don't think I could do it now...I also make under $1200/mo at the moment!

Good luck to Justine...iots awesome you found a place you love and its interesting to hear whats its like NOW to be in your 20s in NYC!

AN - There IS a big gap in classes in this country, and its been growing ever larger. The US income distribution curve used to resemble more of a bell curve - some at the bottom, a lot in the middle and some at the top. It is morphing over the last several decades into more of a dumbell shaped pattern - more at the bottom, less in the middle, more at the top.

There are clear "winners" and "losers" in this country when it comes to share of income. And its not getting any better. The U.S. is increasingly showing signs of the type of income inequality that you see in developing nations - and clearly moving away from the direction of more egalitarian societies such as you see amongst the Scandinavians.

Generally speaking, since the late 1970s, the inflation-adjusted incomes of those on the bottom has either fallen or been stagnant, while those at the top have grown. And the further up the ladder you go, the greater the rate of income growth. Bush-era tax policies have further exacerbated this trend into the early 21st century.

There is also increasing economic evidence that class mobility (i.e. the ability of a person to increase one's income such to move from one social class to another) in the U.S., once fairly robust, has fallen below that of many European countries. Again, the Scandinavians tend to lead the pack.

In answer to Shari's queries, I pay about $850 per month, and most of my friends pay much less than I do. My boyfriend pays only $600, and his dogwalking/musician jobs mean he couldn't afford more. I'm actually moving soon, in seek of a more affordable place. I never said I haven't lived off my parents - actually, my parents helped me with my rent for my first year in NYC as an intern. Now I'm finally out from under my parents' wings, and supporting myself, meaning I make less than $400 a week, and can't afford my rent. (Anybody know of a nice 3-bedroom in Astoria for under $2,100?)

The jump to $1,200, before utilities, not to mention groceries, transportation, indulgences like netflix, and an occasional trip to the movies, is huge. Not that there's anything wrong with those who can afford it, but for an assistant in the not-for-profit theater world, it's a level I probably won't be at for 5-10 years.

I don't want people here to think that I'm asking Apartment Therapy to become a budget-saving design blog (though it would be nice if one existed!). I mostly read it for the interior-design-porn, if you will - it's about fantasizing what my dream apartment will someday look like, not determining the best find in the new Ikea catalogue every day. A lot of the fun would be taken out if they geared it toward people at my income level.

Like I said, I'm looking forward to reading about this apartment's journey, and the girl living in it. If she's working for AT, she's probably pretty cool.

Also, way to go AT for including the early 20's set. Whether or not it's in my price range, it's nice to know you care :-)

click chick. I grew up in New Orleans, Louisiana. Spent parts of my summer in Missouri visting family. Went to college in Texas. Have spent quite a bit of time outside off the coasts. Really resented the "God forbid the rich people be exposed to the reality that many people can't relate to their lives." You own your home do you not?

Dave - and less than a thousand could also be $995.00. I think you may be using the 1/3 income going to your apartment. it's not unheard of for San Francisco and Manhattan for folks to have 50% of their take home pay go to rent. I knew someone who lived off hot dogs and cabbage for over a year while interning in New York, until he landed a solid job. Then he lived very meagerly for 2 more years till he got a good paying job. You seem shocked at my response, and yet you assume people who live in manahattan have trustfunds.
And you still assume you might know this girl's financial situation (500 student loan etc).

I'm not saying I know her financial situation. Hell she could be sitting on a mountain of moeny. But I do know $1200.00 is not an unheard of amount for people to have to pay in Manhattan. In fact, I'm betting it's on the cheap.

I have also noticed over time that there are people who seem to have to have issues with folks who have had parents help them out. Violetsrose your comment: "after all if you've had to work two or three jobs, scrimp and save and you achieve good things without anyone elses help then that achievement is worth more than someone who didn't have to work and had no limit on their spending"...wow...if someone had help from a parent with their downpayment you think they didn't have to work and had no limit to their spending? There were no obstacles in their life to overcome.

Shari - First, if you bothered to read, you'd see that the comment immediately ABOVE yours is from Moxie who notes that she pays $850 a month and that the friends she was talking about pay $600 a month. So your specious "well, it could also be $995 a month" is just a straw man argument at this point.

Second, the 1/3 income for housing affordability guideline I used is applied to GROSS income, not take home pay. Big difference between starting with 1/3 GROSS income vs. 1/2 NET income, after taking into consideration federal income tax, Social Security/Medicare witholding, state income tax, and, in the case of NYC, NYC personal income tax.

Third, I live in a housing market as expensive at Manhattan - its called San Francisco. So yes, I am familiar with how much of folks take home pay sometimes goes toward rent. I would also add, that there is a difference between someone relatively poor spending half their take home pay on rent vs. some more affluent. Because the other half that is leftover is larger in the absolute for the more affluent person. Which play out in that many expenses are more fixed, and not proportionally more expensive - utilites, transit, gas, food, etc. This is why we have progressively index tax code by the way - it recognizes that the further down the income scale you go, the harder it is to stretch a "dollar" as there is a floor to how low you can get certain household costs.

Fourth, I'm not making blind assumptions. I make informed assumptions based on, statistically, what the average financial situation is for people in various social classes. Its called demographics.

Finally, no one is saying that people who get help from their parents don't have to work to get something. However, I think that someone who has come from meager beginnings and has had to work multiple jobs just to scratch by, HAS indeed surmounted greater obstacles and is more likely to appreciate what they have earned than someone who has come from affluent beginnings and has had a lot more handed to them throughout their life, in the form of access to better schools, better safer neighborhoods, able to attend more expensive colleges, and access to a more professional, monied job network vis a vis parents, social peers, etc.

I could easily turn it back to you and ask "What is it people who have had this type of assistance over their lives that they can't accept that much of their advantages were unearned merely by accident of birth?"

It's called Karma, Dave.

Thanks, Dave. Your last paragraph summed it up for me. Why do the rich always assume they get it?

Well, we all know that if you don't earn your advantages by hard work they have no real value.

This is why beautiful people are required to walk around with disclaimers printed on business cards so that they can hand them out to everyone they meet. For example, my wife has one that says "I acknowledge that I was born with genetics endowing me with a beautiful face and shapely breasts. It is through no action of my own that I have these advantages. I submit to the superiority of those who have achieved through hard work the necessary funding to buy plastic surgery to enhance their features to my level."

Ariella - "So in effect you're saying anyone with inherited wealth, or help from someone else demands sacrifices in the character department."

No - what I said was if someone achieves something great but has had no help getting there, then their achievement is greater than someone who has achieved the same thing but with help.

"Tell that to FDR! or Proust. Or J. Robert Oppenheimer. Or anyone who has contributed their "character" to our city or nation or culture and just happened to have a little help from home."

I'm not saying that people with help DIDN'T achieve great things - I'm saying that it was easier for them to achieve them than for someone who didn't get help.

Imagine how many Prousts we've missed because they didn't get a huge inheritance and couldn't devote their lives to writing because they had to actually work for a living - I can't imagine someone coming home after a night shift of hard work with their body aching, then having to look after their three kids, their elderly relatives, clean the house and barely have enough money at the end of the month for food to have much incentive to create something beautiful like Proust did - if, however, they did then I would consider that a more outstanding achievement on their part

I'm not classist - I do, however, know what the reality of life is like for poorer people and to think that their lives and achievements are no different to people who get help is just blinkered

I actually thought about this thread for a couple of days. Lot of hard feelings all round, and I will probably add to it.

I had a mixed start in life - hardships plus my parent's help when they could give it - I don't say I feel superior but I do take a certain pride in having survived some difficult housing situations. I think it is human nature to take pride in achieving something difficult.

Sometimes I think I should have accomplished much more and sometimes I'm amazed I was able to achieve anything at all.

Mama may have, and papa may have, but god bless the child that's got his own.

this is gettign way out of hand.

I've had help from my parents before. I'm not proud of it. I've also held a second job WHILE getting occasional help from the rents to meet the rent. It's no fun. Who cares how Justine pays for her apt? The fact is, she pays for it. The point of her being on the blog is not how she affords her apt. If you're interested in that, maybe you should go read another blog. This one is about design, if I remember correctly.

Way to go Justine!

I recently struck it out on my own and found a leetle one-bedroom in Brooklyn, in Clinton Hill area. Now, I REALLY got the last good deal in NYC! I'm rent stabilized (at $995, it's STILL under a thou, and locked in for two years) with an elevator and ten feet away from teh subway station... Lucky me!!

I'm still decorating and putting things together. I'll post pics of it soon... I love AT! But sometimes people need to take a chill pill, yo. Give the girl a break.

Get over it all. Rich to some, poor to others. This site is about enjoying the beauty and decorating of a small space. I love the new place. Good Luck.
Btw, I have friends still in RVs because their house was torn down by Katrina. This site helps me help them make something decent out of whatever they may live in...

I think people are missing the gray area in this. We're not all either super rich or struggling poor.

my parents helped me on and off for years - and thank god. but it doesn't mean that they are wealthy or I'm tooling around with a trust fund.

And those who do it on their own don't have a lock on self-achievement. If you want to assign special meaning to your journey, gfi, but there is plenty to go around. it's not a zero sum game

max is really annoying lol

Did anyone see the article in the New York Times about marriage the other day (last weekend I think?)--these data have been floating around for a couple of months, but have recently gotten another big write-up. Marriage data show that women are less likely to "marry up" and educated men are less likely to "marry down" than in previous generations--and by up and down here I mean in education level, which is not a bad surrogate for income. There is strong evidence that this might be widening the income gap. Very interesting. I might argue that the same thing happens with roommates--and the haves and have-nots sharing apartments in their 20's in NYC face two different worlds. You don't have to be a trust-fund kid to be a have, and it's darn easy to be a have-not who falls through the cracks, education and good job and all. Almost no one young is spending 1/3 or less of their income on their apartment here (except maybe Maxwell and SK?!!), but being willing to spend 1/2 or more isn't enough to save you either!

As someone who grew up in the Midwest and has lived in lots of places before the NYC area, I have to say that I have incredible sympathy for young people starting out here now. The standard in NYC is increasingly that landlords expect your annual income to be 40-45 times your monthly rent. Think about that--for a $1000 a month apartment, you need to make $80-90,000 dollars a year. That is way beyond the conventional wisdom that your rent should be 1/3 of your income, and way beyond any expectation I've faced anywhere else. If you don't make that, you often either get rejected for the apartment, have to put up a gigantic deposit that gets held the entire time you live there, or you have to have a guarantor who signs on your behalf--but from the tri-state area, as they won't even bother with one further away, in case they need to litigate.

Thus, as someone in my 30's with a PhD, and who is an assistant professor, I would not be able to rent a $1000 per month apartment now on these conditions in NYC. An apartment (size/space, etc.-wise) that would seem imminently reasonable for someone in my position anywhere else in the country (though it would cost much less elsewhere!). I simply do not make enough money, and have no relatives in the tri-state area to sign for me. Welcome to trying to feel independent--it's really hard!

Things have gotten much much harder in the past five years around here, and I have sympathy and a lot of good luck wishes to everyone starting out here, no matter what kind of parental support they do or don't have. It is hard to make things work, and the reality of that certainly didn't sink in to me until I moved here. New York is a great place, and it may well hold the potential career opportunity that the young people starting out here need. If you live elsewhere, cut them some slack for what you view as the choices they make. If you live here, and have for a while, realize that as landlords increasingly change their rules, it's getting much harder than it used to be....almost everyone needs some help, from their family, from a roommate's relative who is willing to be a guarantor, or just a lucky break. So think of the new kids in their 20s fondly every time you put something nice out on the curb!

Skipped a big section of this topic after the posts started to get even too bitter for me.

I moved to Manhattan from San Francisco a year and a half ago. I am an immigrant. Immediate family members of mine are mechanics, gardeners, handy-men, beauticians, etc...

I've been supporting myself and my fiancee while she goes back to school (which I'm paying for) on one income. We live in a fairly nice place on the upper east side also. So it's possible to live in Manhattan and not be independently wealthy. But it's not as much fun.

On the flip side, with the same income in San Francisco (not a cheap town by any means), I never had to budget as no matter how much I spent (and I love to eat out, buy electronics, drink, party it up, give to my friends and be a total hedonist as well as send money back to the folks to help cover their mortgage), I always came out with a surplus after all the monthly bills were paid.

Not so in Manhattan.

Btw, I just turned 30. My brother is in his mid-20s and just moved to Manhattan and got a place by himself in the East Village. It's possible.

Anything is possible if you're willing to shut up and give it a shot. With that said, Manhattan ain't the end all be all. There are much better towns out there. My fiancee and I plan to move to another city after she establishes enough contacts in her new career.

More stream of consciousness opinionations...as ambivalent as I am about Manhattan, it's a jewel compared to the rest of the area. Queens and Brooklyn are dumps. I will never again leave the island for a social invite to any of the other boroughs. People told me Williamsburg is cool. It ain't cool. It's an armpit just like Astoria. In fact, New York state would be the cultural equivalent of Indiana if Manhattan didn't exist. Think about that the next time you're rude to someone from Jersey.

oops--yes, I know I did poor math! That's for a $2000 a month apartment, not $1000 per month.

Woah. Brooklyn a DUMP? I've lived in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn, and hands down, Brooklyn is the nicest enclave in NYC to me. I often say to my friends, if luck were on my side one day and I find myself financially able to live anyway I wanted to, I would STILL choose Brooklyn over Manhattan. The tree-to-people ratio alone beats Manhattan's hands down. If you're lucky enough to be near the UWS and hence to Central Park, great. But not everyone in Manhattan is as lucky as you, and I know lots of struggling people who pay cheap rents who live in rent-stabilized dumps in the LES who would jump to move to Brooklyn if they could find something nice.

i love brooklyn. i had a 1-bedroom railroad in park slope for under $1000. it was in pretty bad shape, but the location was worth it.

however, i also had student loans and other expenses and found that there wasn't much point in living in new york if i had to work 70-hour weeks just to get by--i never had time or energy to actually experience anything new york had to offer besides the subway. so i left for the south, where i have enough time and money left over to enjoy my friends and life.

but, i am excited for justine. i don't give a crap how she affords the joint--my bet is that after rent and food, she probably won't have much more left over to decorate than i ever did, so i'll be interested in seeing what she's able to do.

Reading all of these posts makes me glad with glee. My 20 year adventure in NYC came to an end last month when I found an amazing loft upstate on 80 acres. After being priced out of Manhattan after 18 years a did a 2 year stint in Ft Greene Brooklyn which put me right over the edge. The 90 minute round trip to the city every day (not including the 10 minute walk to the subway) capped it for me. Quality of life is #1 and I could no longer be convinced that life in the city justified everything that I was sacrificing on my journey to have an adult life. I don't get green with envy when I hear accounts of other people's "good fortune" at finding a "2 bedroom" for $2,500 a month. Sorry, I don't care what kind of fantasy you're playing out in NY, that is NOT living well. The city has been taken over by idiots who will pay any price to sniff the leftover fumes from the make believe characters from Sex In the City. Invariably you're living beneath or ajacent to some inconsiderate asshole and all of the precious, overhyped restaurants in the world don't make a decent city. It's an environment that cultivates greed, self-centeredness and a deluded sense of reality and it makes sense. How else do you justify the overall cost of living in that place.
NY is no longer relevant and I'm grateful that I did live there at a time when people really did appreciate the value of diversity. Bye, suckers.

I love Brooklyn too! I pay $2000 a month for a 1 bedroom garden apartment. Even though the ceilings are only a little over 6 feet it still feels spacious because I decorated it with miniature furniture and nothing is over 2 feet high. I can hear my upstairs neighbor sneeze and have sex but I don't mind because she's really cool; she works for a groovy magazine and because I can hear her every move I feel like I can live vicariously through her. I mean, that's what NY is all about, isn't it? You don't really have to accomplish anything because proximity to people who are doing something is just as good! It took awhile to get used to the snide remarks and the aggressive behavior of the other people who live on my block (like when they practically pushed me into the street when I passed them) but, hey, they were here first and I can understand their feeling threatened by all of us whities putting up obnoxious things like flower boxes and real curtains in the windows. Not the ghetto they fight so hard to maintain. The 20 minute wait for the overcrowded train and all of the darlings eating Popeyes chicken dinners at 10am also took awhile to get used to but that's what we love about NY. Live and let live! I wish I didn't have to spend 60% of my income on my rent but since I love ramen it's not so bad. The extra money I have at the end of the month allows me to go to a cool restaurant and where else in the world would I be able to sit in the same room as someone like JayZ or Lindsay and experience their antics and breathe the same air? Let's face it, there's nowhere like NY and as long as I'm surrounded by people who are just like me I will continue to do my own bad thing, no matter the price! I sure wish my parents could supplement my life here like all my friends but I am pushing 35 and it might not be such a good idea to dip into their monthly social security benefits at this stage of the game. But good for you if your parents can chip it. It keeps that housing market where it should be. Congrats on the new apartment. See you at the salad bar!

NYC.
Lived there.
Left there.
Went back last year.
Nicer, cleaner, more boring.
Want an apartment there.
But don't wannabe stuck there.