apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

Here in China, just across the border from Hong Kong, I will be moving into a 1,250 or so sq. ft. (117 sq. m) apartment after the interior is fitted out. Moving from a 700 sq. ft. apartment. Currentlythe new place it is just a shell and the interior decoration with quite a few built-ins will add up to about US$ 32,000. Apartments in China keep getting bigger. HK apartments keep looking smaller in comparison (unless someone is on an expat package with their company).

I guess the AT crowd will probably know but I wonder how many ppl out there know the true sqft of their apt.

Coops and condos are measured differently and there is usually a built in BS factor when apts are listed for sale (with the appropriate disclaimer saying that the numbers are approximations only). In my obsessive research of NYC real estate over the last few years I have seen the following hold generally true

1. Only the teeniest, tiniest apts are ever advertised at below 400 sqft.
2. 400 sqft is a safe rounded up number that the vast majority of real 300 sqft apts can be advertised at without raising the ire or suspicions of most ppl. Thus most ppl who see 300 sqft apts think that they are 400 sqft
3. Most small 1BR apts are advertised at 500 sqft even thought they are really around 400 sqft
4. The average NYC 1BR is advertised at 600-700 sqft even though the real sqft is around 500 sqft
5. etc.

My theory is that a lot of ppl have become used to the BS broker numbers so these have become the de facto standards when coming up with a number or even visualizing a space. Especially at 500 sqft and above. Nothing wrong with that as long as we're all playing on the same level playing field.

However, I do see an area where there is a lot of confusion in the below 400 sqft size. Because these are mostly studios it is easy to measure the sq footage so most ppl who live in such an spt and who have meaured will get closer to 200/250 sqft. They will not include dead or awkward spaces either. This means that you do get a wide descrepancy when it comes to perception of sq footage in this size range.

Having said all that, the above ranges neatly circumvent this problem by using cleverly selected ranges that cater for the broker BS factor. Well done!

I don't know why I wrote all that but I did so I'm going to hit the post button

Out of the first 39 respondents, 20 (or more than 50%!!!!!) are in the over 750 range... Damn! Where are all these big apartments that I have never seen.

jamie pup, I hear you. My first reaction with this poll was to wonder whether we were talking real sq. ft. or NY broker sq. ft. What is funny is that, as elaborate as the whole scam is, everyone I know understands exactly what to expect. If you use the real numbers to describe your own apartment friends are actually confused when they see the new place.

I opted for reality on the poll but, when I describe my new apartment to friends I use the broker #, prefaced with "In broker speak it's..." so they won't be struck dumb by the sheer size of it of course;)

Jamie Pup you are so right! My apartment was advertised at 1400 square feet with the broker making a caveat that it was around 1350 usable space. Well, my architect (will comment on my decorator experience in an open thread) has measured every square inch and the usable space (meaning no interior walls and perhaps no closets) as 1,100! Still a great space but it upset all my price per square foot calculations. At 1,400 square feet the place was a deal--at 1,100 it's height of the market. Of course every place else is also inflated so maybe it's still a deal, who knows. But the place had sat for a while and I think this was the reason. savier buyers had passed it up. ah well.

on another note though. my mother is renting a property through brown harris and that broker is using the exact square footage drawn up by the architect, 1821. no rounding up to 1,900. so maybe it depends on the brokerage. this broker is also young so perhaps he hasn't learned any bad habits yet.

I actually measured my apartment to make a grid layout for rearranging and to have a sense of size when I go looking at other spaces. I was assuming that the square footage should include all areas including closets as well as floor space space used by kitchen cabinets and tub, etc. So not all of it is "useable". I thought I was being generous coming up with a 350 sq. ft. apt. Unless they pull out the tape measure I think a lot of people are unrealistic about what their square footage actually is, if they weren't simply snowed by the realtors. There should be a law about truth in advertising real estate.

a tool to help estimate -- the interior of a two-car garage is 400 square feet.

Ouch...that's depressing to think of my apartment as the same size (or slightly larger) than a two-car garage...

As mentioned on one of the other threads what one considers "small" or "tall" can also depend on how many people are sharing the space. So my 350 sq ft. of "not all usable" space is currently seeming small to me and my little dog, but it would be "mini" if another adult or child were here.

Yep sg, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Everyone knows and can relate to the broker BS numbers. There is a remarkable consistency to them.

Kind of like men and their claimed heights. All 5'8" men claim they are 5'10", all men that are really 5'10" claim that they are 6' and all 6' men claim they are 6'3" or 6'4". Again a remarkable consistency and no one knows any better because every man does it. Well almost every man. I've got a friend who is honest about his 6'1" height and it infuriates his cousin who is around 5'7". This cousin keeps insisting that my friend must be at least 6'3" because there is about half a foot between them and he knows he is at least 5'9"

Cristy, I wouldn't worry about it. I agree with you that everything else being inflated equalizes it. Oh and the young broker has a lot to learn ;O)

are most of these large apts outside of NYC? I can't believe that many people have such nice places - maybe the ones with tiny apts are too bitter to read AT? I hope not!

My small apartment is outside of nyc. It's the largest apartment I've ever had to myself. About 13 years ago I shared a 2 bedroom in the West Village with up to 4 other people that was smaller than what I have now and my rent is $5 less!

When my brother went to RPI (uni) in upstate NY he had a 4 bedroom 2 bathroom top floor apartment with a den/ formal dining area,eat in kitchen, balcony even a good size foyer. I can't speak for sq footage. However I would guess it was 2000+

Him and his roomate paid about 600usd a month (300 usd each)

Now his roomate lives in a building that used to be a church (gothic industrial?) next to a lush open park and he pays about 700usd a month . Same town on the outskirts of Albany. He has half the floor.

I admit- my apartment is outside of NY and I voted...sorry if the vote was just looking for NY apt owners!

Remember, now the buzzword is cubic footage! When I painstakingly measured out my condo, I found it within a few square feet of what I was sold. Of course, it was a loft so it's a fairly simple measurement!

I remember one point many years ago when flat panel monitors were far more expensive then they are now. I calculated that many nice NYC apartments price per square foot was about equal to tiling the entire apartment in LCD screens.

I was seriously considering a floor-thru condo in a brownstone last year; conversion was in process so the broker gave me the architects' plans for the building, and even THAT claimed a square footage for the (one-level) apt. in question as "852" square feet... while plainly showing the building's footprint of 20x40! Curiously the plan also included room dimensions... exlcuding common areas, closets, walls etc, the usable SF of the apt was closer to 690SF. Since then I don't even look at advertised square footage, I just go look at places and see for myself.

How much 'outside of NYC' are we talking here?
Me, I'm a hoboken girl, and I love my 1200 sq ft prewar and would never go back to cramped Manhattan apts. My brother in Atlanta, however..... forget it. He's got 2000 sq feet and thinks its tiny. And my sister in Texas.... sigh.

Yes, yes, those broker numbers include the hallway, the elevator, a % of the lobby, the sidewalk and the space your taxi takes up next to the curb and that's legal (ok, I exaggerate at the end there.) Jimkk, I think there is a law and this is how they get around it but, I don't understand how it's done with the brownstones. Is it possible they just lie? I'm shocked, shocked!

I have had my East Village railroad flat for eons. Invariably my out-of-town friends who come to visit from points West remark on the fact that my railroad flat strongly resembles a double-wide trailer.

It's definitely spacious by NY standards, but on top of that it has very tall ceilings (11'). The ceiling height makes it seem even bigger, and when I renovated (in true NYC rent stabilized tenant style) several years ago I tried to build UP wherever possible.

My princess and the pea style bed has tons of storage beneath it, and my bedroom closets have cabinets above them for things like luggage, out of season clothes or crap I just don't want to look at.

I also took out all the walls during the renovation, again making it seem larger. Now if only I could do something about it's cave like qualities, the smoke that comes through my front window (thanks to the smoking ban) and the noise. Then it'd be just *perfect*.

Our deplex is 1250 sq ft. When we first moved in last year, we got a knock on the door. It was two elderly women from Long Island. Both had grown up in our building in the 1930's, one in our apartment. They asked if they could look around. It was facinating to here about how the neighborhood (Prospect Heights) was then. But even more so to learn about the layout of the apartment. It was not a duplex then and 3 people lived in half the space we have now.

Well, I'm an avid AT reader, but I live in Tempe, AZ, so I mucked up the results. My two-bedroom, $750/mo apt is a little on the smaller side for the Phoenix metro at about 900 sq.ft...

I guess I should probably be reading some blog with "how to decorate your huge white cavernous apartment when all you have is a monster IKEA down the street" but oh well. We have size out here but no style.

I live in DC, so I guess my SQ footage isn't as relevant, but at 527 it isn't exactly large either. The design is very good though - uses the closet as a walk through space to the bathroom, washer dryer are in the bathroom closet, etc.

i think one's sense of 'space' is really a frame of mind....my 1000+ sqft 2 bedrm apt is in a prewar building in brooklyn. my husband and i gutted the apartment when we purchased it and converted it from a tight three bedroom with a miniscule closet bathroom, to a two bedroom with a large 8 x 10' bathroom/laundry room. it had been previously occupied by a rent-controlled tenant ($140 monthly rent!!) who had lived there for over 50 years, and supposedly she and her husband happily raised three boys in the apartment. i can't imagine raising three kids in our space now. but my husband and i with our rather large dog previously lived happily (most of the time) in 400+ sq ft junior one bedroom (really a studio) for five years. granted, it's always nice to have more space, but it's not everything. also ceiling height (both apartments have 10 feet high ceilings) and light (both apartments have large 6 x 2 1/2 feet windows in each room) makes the most difference in one's sense of space.

Another vote from Arizona. We pay $425/mo. for a weird little guesthouse in Tucson with roughly 800-900 square feet. This must seem like a lot of space to many of you, and yet we still have the dining room table on our porch to save room inside. . . I'm quite interested in the decluttering and space-saving tips that have shown up here. I have no intention of hoarding books just so the piles can fall over and trap me inside when I'm 70. Also, our rent may seem very low compared to yours, but so are Tucson salaries!!

My girlfriend and I moved into a 730sqft studio loft this weekend. We live in Austin,TX so large places are kinda standard. Our new place is smaller than anywhere we have lived before but due to the 13ft ceiling and three 5x8 windows plus sliding glass door, it seems SO MUCH bigger than any apartment we have been in. While lying in bed last night I realized that what I liked most was that when sitting on the couch I was in the 'largest' livingroom I had ever been in, then lying in bed I was also in the 'largest' bedroom I had ever seen. And so on. except for the small(by TX standards, not NYC) bathroom and closet.
It is amazing how such a 'small' space can seem so large.

mine's in santa monica, ca... did i mess you guys up?

I personally don't feel that anything was messed up. If you want to vote then vote.

What I think was very confusing though was that most ppl who have commented in other threads - until this thread came along - live in nyc so to see so many large apartments was quite a shock. Had all these ppl simply commented on where they lived then that confusion would have been averted.

I must admit that I find it frustrating that ppl vote without commenting. For example, I posted pictures of my rental kitchen because I was very confused about what ppl were saying about and voting about some of the kitchens in the competition. Most thus far had been very modern and sleek so I posted pics (there was a lag before my pics were posted so more examples had cropped up before mine turned up) of mine with an explicit explanation of why (I wanted opinions and not votes) this was warm or cold (the most common criticism at that point was that kitchens were too cold). I got 40 votes that I really did not want and 11 different ppl commenting which I greatly appreciated. I actually achieved what I set out to do in trying to understand zia's point of view which was great.

Now what about the other 29 ppl? I had already said I was not in the competition so did not want votes but ppl voted anyway? For whose benefit?

My point really is why don't more ppl comment instead of leaving it to the small band of regulars? There are plenty of ppl out there willing to vote (hundreds in the kitchen competition) so why not write a couple of lines? It would make votes like this much more useful and less confusing.

I live in a 1000 sq ft apt with my sister near DC. It's kind of expensive for us (hardly leaves us with any play money at $1340/mo) but well worth it- the location is ideal for both of our jobs, and the apartment is open and beautiful.

oh, and our cat loves being able to reign over the place too =)

Apparently it really is all about size, folks. But seriously, it does affect one's frame of mind. I'm amazed that my own place fits into the "medium" category above. Also amazing is that when I measured before buying it in 1999, the square footage was larger than what the listing said. Had that been accurate, the place probably would've sold sooner and for more $.

Last month I met a guy a party who consults in helping people organize their homes, personal finances, etc. He said that based on his experience there's a correlation between people who spend enormous amounts of time outside on their cellphones and other tech gadgets and those whose homes are messes (largely from buying crappy small-apartment furniture, clothes, & other stuff they don't need and will never use or wear out unless they never grow a day older and live forever). His message is that small works, but only if you work at it. Much of what AT promotes fairly eloquently.

I sometimes tend toward the, well, wordy when I post (and hence try to not make a habit of doing so) but to respect jamie pup's wishes...

I, too, have long been fascinated by all the issues surrounding claimed square footage in Manhattan apts. And yes, I'm intentionally narrowing even from discussing all of NYC, as in my experience the phenomenon, even amongst those who live in the boroughs, is intensified when the discusssion centers on Manhattan space.

I own my apartment. (BTW, does the phrase "buy an apartment" feel funny to any other people who've come from outside of NYC? Somehow it's ingrained in me that you purchase a home, or condo, or co-op , and one only "rents" an apartment.) In the end, I viewed almost sixty units during the course of my hunt. Having come from home ownership outside the city, and having had a good amount of construction expereince in my past, I was stunned at what I was shown - in the company of completely straight-faced brokers - as being "aboslutely at LEAST seven-hundred square foot" apartments. My thoughts on the subject changed after once making the grevious error of, on a sedcond showing, pulling out a tape measure to show the broker that I wasn't crazy in my belief that the "architect's plan" which was both on the website and the listing sheet and clamied the living space as a precise-sounding 629 SF, was way, way, off. I actually began my measuring thinking I was doing all a favor. I'd only completed one room when the broker shook the keys in his hand and snapped...
- "do you want the apartment or not?"

Good point. That one phrase snapped me into the Manhattan apartment frame of mind. They list is as 600 SF, they list it as 850SF, who cares. You walk in, you look at the space. SF - wise, either they stretched a little or they stretched a lot, in the end it makes zero difference. The apartment I ended up in, the apartment in which I now sit, neverf was listed with a quoted square footage. Both my broker and the listing broker agreed on "a little over seven hundred". It's six and change. And I love it.

Two cool things in this thread. From the comment above - "...small works, but only if you work at it." So true and so well put.

And finaly, a phrase I'm sure many of us never thought we'd read on this site... "Here in China..."

Every time I begin to take this whole internet thing for granted I read one of those little zingers. And congratualtions, MGR!

Here in China...Well, I am an American living in China, and it actually shouldn't be too surprising that people in China might take an interest in apartment design. People are building and buying new apartments at a crazy pace here. Many American architecture and urban planning firms are finding that China is playing a big part in the growth of tehir service firms.

Seriously, a good interior design firm could find good business opportunities. One reason is, that since the cost of labor is so much lower here, it is a lot easier to to hire an interior designer to design the whole apartment with lots of custom made stuff. If they don't like it, they rip it out and try again. Being a foreign company also adds a little cache.