apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

This is an interesting question to ask everyone. As a renter I wonder about motivation for each group as they treat their space. Renters have the creative challenge of dealing with a given space and appliances, owners have the freedom to dream the ultimate and make it happen.(Owners can also increase the value of their investment) Either way it is possible to create a home that expresses our true selves.

as an owner, i can honestly say that true design freedom comes in green. i own a fixer-upper, and while it's great to do whatever i please, finances are the ultimate limitation to the ultimate dream. while some of the challenges are similar, you'll never face remodeling your kitchen on $5K as a renter. the upside to owning is that my neighbor is selling her place for 45% more per sqft than i paid, and it has only been 6 months... which opens some doors to financing more extensive renovations.

I'm an owner of a co-op. Previously, we owned a a 125 year old farmhouse in Connecticut. I did much of the work myself, including replacing sinks, minor electrical and light carpentry. But now I must hire someone who is licensed to do work, per the rules set by the co-op board. While I certainly understand the reason behind this, I find it frustrating dealing with plumbers and electricians who either blow off appointments (while I am trapped at home waiting for them) or charge rediculous prices for something I can do myself.

As a renter who still has hopes of being an owner (co-op or condo) in the not too distant future, my question is whether ownership's really worth all the cost and hassles over renting in terms of redoing your home?

I just went into contract on our first apartment, so I'm a renter-in-transition. I have to think, though, that *most* people on this site are limited by finances to some degree, even if they own. I mean, all my friends who are investment bankers, etc, got design help, and have astonishing apartments. I would think that most people here (like me) are trying to create original design on their own and on a budget. I may be totally wrong, but that's my take.

OK, I've been trapped in rental-land since I moved to NYC. (13 years) I have made the decision that this is the last year of renting and I'm just going to take the chance and buy something I can afford before this last lease is finished. Now, here's my dumb question (I've got to start asking) What are the advantages/disadvantages of buying Condo/Coop?

on the question of whether it's "worth it" or not to own, the answer shouldn't come down to your interests in design (sorry AT!). the decision should be based on interest in equity. say you buy a coop/condo - whether it losses value (pretty unlikely), remains flat, or increases in value - you are not shelling out your hard earned $$ for the sake of making your landlord richer. instead, you're putting more money into your own pockets and reaping tax incentives.

Also what the heck is a Condop? It seems to be a new category I've been seeing listed more often, but have not seen any explanation.

In a condo, you own the actual apartment, fair and square. In my co-op, I own just shares and a 99-year lease. I have a fairly relaxed board, but I still have rules to follow. Then again, my other neighbors also have those rules. My building, like most co-ops, won't let me rent my apartment out for more than two years. [Incidently, this is lucky for me because otherwise my apartment never would have come on the market.] There are very few condos in Manhattan, and they command a premuim over the co-ops.

I have to say, when you're a renter you worry about different things than when you're an owner. I have one crack in my ceiling that keeps me up at night and a wave in the wall at 8'-0" where they patched the drywall crappily. As a renter, I never even patched over holes I left in the wall. As an owner, each nick is something to repair and every little broken thing is something to add to my to-do list. It's completely worth it. For once, I feel like I'm permanently attached to my space, and I have a much nicer apartment than the one I left. My boyfriend's grand plan is to inherit the lease on his family's apartment. In the short term, he gets cheap rent, but my house is actually worth something.

Being a renter in NYC has changed my perception about renting, and what limits that represents. I have painted walls, changed lighting fixtures, changed cabinet/closet hardware, etc. I either will not get my deposit back, or I will pay to replace those things and prime the painted walls myself whenever I move out, but that's worth the joy of living in a place that feels like mine, now. Granted, I live in a HUGE building, so I feel no obligation to my "landlord". I'd probably feel differently if I lived in a smaller, more personal building.

And yes, to an earlier comment, "to rent or to buy" is ultimately a decision of finance.

Lulu, a good book to pick up is the The Ultimate Guide to Buying and Selling Coops and Condos in New York City by Neil J. Binder. this was a tremendous help to me. Also check out The Co-Op Bible - Everything You Need to Know About Co-ops and Condos - Getting in, Staying in, Surviving, Thriving by Sylvia Shapiro. The author is a realtor and co-op board president. Good luck!

During the 15 years I lived in NYC, I rented. I now rent in Texas and I was shocked to discover that I am allowed to paint! Now if only I could change the ceiling fan and rip out the kitchen cabinets...

According to halstead.com--"By definition, a Cond-op is a residential cooperative where the ground floor (typically commercial units) is converted into a separate Condominium owned by either an outside investor or the original sponsor of the building. Because the owner of the Condo is not the owner of the Coop, the Coop does not receive the benefit from the Condo income." My understanding of this was that the benefit of a co-op owning the commerical space is that most operate with a lower monthly maintenance fee, due to the rental fee.

...and that they get to choose who moves in downstairs. A cond-op could be really awful if your building suddenly gets an infestation from the greasy spoon three flights down and you don't get the extra money from their rent.

Just posted onto another thread (6) when I came across this. My two or three cents, for what they're worth...

this is a fantastic thread, my favorite so far.

For renters, I'd strongly urge not being afraid to spruce up your space. Look - at $2,400 a month, you've agreed to drop thirty grand on your apartment during your one-year lease. Why not mentally commit to spending a few hundred dollars up front for things that will affect your whole year - paint, refinishing the floors, etc? I think too many people are afraid to simply ask the landlord. Besides, trust me - if you're reading this, you're in a minority. Most tenants do not care about their apartments anywhere near this much. You have no idea what I've come across in vacated apartments... people who'd installed shelf brackets with nails (no drill, I guess), hardwood floors pockmarked with dozens of cigarette burns from a going-away party, etc. Your care and attention will be appreciated.

On the downside, I've also heard of landlords holding back part of a security deposit due to a tenant's gorgeous repaint.... and then leaving the tenant's paint job on the walls and asking more (and, one assumes, getting more) for the apartment because of the beautiful paint. Such is life.

If you're thinking about buying, there's lots of talk about money, which is undeniably the guiding factor, but consider also permanence. It's a lot easier to get out of a bad situation as a renter. As an owner, be prepared to either deal with it or work it out. On the other hand, if you're a DIY type - and I'm assuming you are if you're reading this - what's really great is that now, finally, your talent is worth something. It's worth a great deal, actually. A tasteful repaint, some vintage light fixtures, a simple bathroom remodel, and you've just added thousands of dollars to your - not your landlord's - net worth.

Last thought... I, for one, would take a condo every time. (you all probably know this, but co-ops are almost unheard-of outside of NYC.) With a co-op you don't actually own anything other than shares in a corporation - and said corporation can do anything up to and including vote you out (granted it's complicated, and rare, but they can do it). I used to work in a bank in Boston which was notable as it was the only bank in New England that would consider co-op loans, since they're not mortgages per se. If you default, the bank is not at all interested in becoming the proud owner of ninety-eight shares of The East 108th Street Corporation, or whatever. Plus, I live in a co-op and have been to board meetings and as far as I can tell getting sixty "shareholders" (remember, we're not owners) to agree on, well, anything is practically impossible. Plus, cheaper usually wins in regards to matters such as fixture replacement, sad to say.


(OK, really the last thing... to Lori, who is now in a co-op from ownership in Connecticut... off the record, if it's carpentry monir plaster or sheetrock, just do the work yourself - just make sure and throw the super a little love before you do it in case of raised eyebrows as you're draggin' those 2X4's onto the elevator. People don't notify boards of minor work far more often than you'd think. It's plumbing and electrical that get you into trouble. And yes, independent contractors are hideous that way. I worked for one, so I guess I was one, so I know. Here's the deal - once they "pee in the corner", you're screwed. In other words, once they punch one hole in the wall, or leave one unusual tool (a pipe threader, for example), no other guy will touch the space, even if your original guy disappears for weeks. Be the squeaky wheel. Call every day. It works. Other people are doing it.)

If you're looking for your own home, and finances are an issue, buy a co-op. They're 20% cheaper than condos because condos are much more affected by our current real estate bubble -- investors buy condos, but co-ops require you to live in the place. This means your neighbors are required to live there, too. In the event of a downturn the co-op is more likely to be a still-there investment.

The co-op board might be crazy -- some of them are -- but in a condo, if your neighbors are crazy, you can't do anything about it. So take your pick- either a crazy board (co-op), or crazy neighbors (condo).

I'm with you Diana. The other upside to co-ops is the tax deduction on maintenance fees. I love our building and we have great neighbors. My husband and I are both on committees and it is reassuring to see how committed everyone is to the building and quality of life. Granted, it's not for everyone, but I am pleasantly surprised at how much I like it.

HELP?
I'm a renter who is being offered an apartment for an astronomical below market rate rent in my area. The apartment is very old in a 3 story pre-war apartment building. I'm trying to decide what should be the extent of my renovation. Landlord approved complete freedom of reno. What should i do? Gut entire apartment or make small changes?