apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

Round 2:

a question to AT & all....

How are we to handle measuring and more importantly including (or not including) outdoor spaces in the upcoming Coolest, Smallest Apartment Contest submissions?

thanks

-k

STEREO/SOUND SYSTEM - I am 100% ignorant

Now that we have settled the issue of my sofa, it is time to tax your collective knowledge on the subject of a STEREO/SOUND SYSTEM. This is for the living area of my brownstone in park slope, which includes the TV/fireplace area and the kitchen. The sound system needs to play music of course, and provide sound for the TV. We listen to a lot of NPR so must have a radio and must play my Nano. My snotty little brother tells me that he would never own a "theatre in a box" sound system but since I am "less knowledgeable" than him, perhaps its low quality would go unnoticed by my apparently ignorant ears. My other snotty music friends say that i can only buy crap for less than $8K, and I don't want to spend anywhere near that on a sound system. Should I go to J&R and buy components, what the sales people tell me? Should I buy a home theatre system? Does anyone know which products are best? and yes, i am perfectly entitled to ridicule Kansas. jonathan

Morning All,

So after reading the excerpt from maxwell's book yesterday, I got inspired to finally clean my closet, that I've been meaning to for months. But taking out 4 hours has been impossible.
So as I read "No two beginnings are the same" I decided to spend 30 minutes in the evening over the next several days.

Yesterday I tackled all the work shirts and gym t-shirts. Threw out a lot of stuff!
Today will be pants and so on...so in about a week or two, my closet should be clean n clear!
:-)

Thanks Maxwell!

From what I've seen, Bose seems very good, although I certainly couldn't justify the expense, myself. The people I know who have them, love them, and they only have the little kind. Bose also makes some elaborate ones, and I don't think they're all that close to $8K.

Jonathan,

we recently bought the Bose hometheatre 10 series. We bought it at Bj's so it came with a samsung 5DVD player that also acts as the receiver. It was only 1K and the sound is great and the speakers are SMALL and can be wall mounted or not!
We also have the Bose Wave Radio in our bedroom and the sound is just unbeliveable.
they have some device so you can join the two and hear the same music in your house!
Might be worth looking into!

Stay away from bose...

for all your home stereo stuff, especially in a small space, here's your answer:

www.denon.com

either for entire entertainment systems, component set-ups you design yourself, or even their amazing micro-systems...

i.e. this one is fucking great
http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/1912.asp

-k

Someone was asking about leather quality for furniture. Here are some informative articles at Spinneybeck's website. I learned about leather from them:

http://www.spinneybeck.com/main.cfm?vPage=About

http://www.spinneybeck.com/images/PrintedMat/Factsheets/Large/leatherqual.pdf

kellen - the rules page for the smallest coolest contest has guidelines for measuring internal space but nothing on outdoor space. I would say outdoor space should be excluded from measurements but included if the entrant wants in pictures. With a 3 pic restriction though, some may prefer to concentrate on their indoor space.

I think sound systems really depend on your ear! As many people that I know that love BOSE...I know an equal amount (including myself) that don't like the sound. My brother calls his BOSE wave radio "the most expensive alarm clock" he ever bought. He just can't stand the sound!

Personally, I would go to a few high-end audio shops and get a feel of the kind of sound that you like. Once you have done that, I think it would be easy to do a little research and put together a good system. I think the salespeople at J&R can be hit or miss, and they are definitely better when you go in there like you know what you are talking about!!

Ecoustics.com has lots of reviews, both editorial and customer. Plus they have forums for these kinds of questions.

Also, reviews.cnet.com is always very helpful.

Jonathan, ignore all audio snobs and feel guilt free to buy theater in a box systems. On of the founding members of home theater geek site hometheaterforum.com once posted that he had always warned friends away from theater in a box systems because he could hear the subtle differences but he admitted that he had not actually auditioned them. A relative did buy because he had a budget and when this audio geek listened to the set up he was very pleasantly surpised.

I remember the days when I had a Linn turntable and an amp with no controls other than volume, input selector and output selector. All the costs were in high quality components such as beefy capacitors and large power supply but with as few components as possible to produce the shortest path possible from the source to the speakers and also to introuduce as little coloration as possible from different components into what was supposed to be a transparent soundstage.

Now all our sources are digitally manipulated and the receivers introduce so much of their own manipulation of the sound to give you that articifial surround sound that you no longer have that pure signal any more. So who cares how much you spend? All of it is adulterated anyway so just go for the cheapest one that sounds good to you. simple as that.

Video is different because of factors such as 3:2 pulldown, inverse telecine, de-interlacing, color gamuts, IRE gray scale and lots of other BS, but the bottom line is that differences in video quality are much more readily apparent than difference in sound quality.

Any lay person will be able to see the difference between HD source and non HD but not many ppl will be able to hear differences between HT in a box systems and high end stuff.

Agreed with Jamie Pup, that outdoor space is a freebie and excluded. However, some really small apartments (ours included) relies on funky outdoor spaces to get by - such as the woman last year who had a storage locker on the terrace outside her door, so this can be important to include in pics. Your choice.

I beg to differ. A lay person will most definitely be able to hear the difference between HT-in-a-box systems and high end.

The difference between a lay person and someone who is "into" quality sound is that the differences won't bother the lay person while the sound freak will be bothered by missing the highs and lows, by distortion and sibilance, and all the other things that tweak critical listeners.

I remember that article on the HTF (been a member since 2000 IIRC), and the point of it was not that there were subtle differences that geeks claim to be able to pick up, but rather that the quality of the HTIB systems had improved to the point that it was possible to be engaged in the sound and picture.

More to the point of the question, ignorance is bliss. If you know nothing about audio now and don't care that much, buy something cheap based around features rather than sound quality. Then pat yourself on the back that you've avoided a VERY expensive obsession.

I'd say move all digital and pick up a Sonos system. It plays music off your computer and internet radio. It also does whole house audio. It's $500 for each "room" or "zone" you want to have it run, plust $400 for the spiffy full color wireless controller (imagine your iPod after a year with a good nutritionist and personal trainer). You'll also need a pair of speakers for each zone, you can buy them from Sonos or get your own. The first "zone" has to be hooked to your router with an ethernet cable, but the rest are all wireless. To get your NPR you can use the NPR web streams, or hook a tuner into one of the zone players.

Be warned, however, that if you live in a bad wireless footprint (like my condo where I'm surrounded by a billion wireless routers, 2.4 Ghz phones, microwaves, and who knows what else) the system may not work for you. I had to send mine back :( But other's I've installed have worked flawlessly and they are so damn cool.

Jamie & Maxwell-

thanks for the input re: the outdoor space for the contest.

-k

Hmmm, wonder why jonathan's brother and friends are all snotty to him? Hmmm. ;)

peacelamp--
I'm a big believer in the 30 minute a day rule when trying to impact a big declutter.

The other thing I had to come to terms with was that to get even more of an impact, faster, was to cut into the time I did other things... so, during my own big declutter, things like the gym and socializing took a back seat. And I usually upped the 30 minutes to a full day on the weekends.. but only one of the two days.

Keep up the good work!! You can get there!

For what its worth, after I did all the research and listening and testing and everything else in the world.. I decided on the stereo system I wanted and ended up picking it up at 2 different places down on Canal for pennies on the dollar, and got the rest for SUPER CHEAP on www.ecost.com. I bought a really really great Onkyo reciever and amazing Sony tower speakers and some massive speaker wire etc, and got it all home for less money than I spent on the HTIB from Circuit City (thank god for return policies). It made sense for me on a feature and sound level to get a great dvd/cd player, a great reciever (which I have an airtunes hooked to) and speakers that sound really great even at low volumes.. which was the most important thing. Now I can listen to whatever media I want, including internet streams etc, and beef up my dvd/vcr movie watching as well.. and for cheap. Canal and www.ecost.com , the best resources once you know what you want. cnet was awesome for reviews too.

jonathan,

you've gotten some good input on your speaker/sound system question. but you'll get a lot more from a dedicated community like hometheaterforum.com or avsforum.com.

My only suggestion is to buy within your budget, if you can't hear a difference between a $500 set or a $1000 set then don't buy the $1000 just because.

I'm always suprised people will get excited by someone choosing a certain stereo system but are not as excited when they pick a piece of mid-mod furniture--which is often as controversial (IMHO) :)

Hey Max, a much better way of putting it.

However, in the end, I think we are still essentially saying the same thing.

I'm amazed you remembered that post from 5/6 years ago!

jamie pup-- (hey there!)
Any advice on components to turn my iPod into my primary home audio system? Already have AirPort Express... oh, and "silver" "sexy components" and "tiny speakers" are on the wish list. :)

Could also be the solution/foundation for home theater audio, but right now my priority is music.

And what do you think of some of the multi-brand dealers like Harvey Electronics and Innovative Audio Video here in the city?

(Whoops, missed Max's comments on Sonos, re: wireless iPod-driven music. Sorry Max, and thanks!)

Thanks all, despite the continued attacks against me. To Patrick and my other naysayers, I say bugger off.

I will also see what the sales people say at J&R Music World.

Bose: it's true - all my friends tell me Bose is for cheeseballs and morons who don't know better and that 40% of the value is for the brand. I'm not sure whether I could tell the difference between high-end vs theater in a box. I will check these sites you have suggested and see what they think.

You know me so well! Buggering off is one of my favorite past times.

Especially on a brand-spanking new leather couch, tunes wafting from shiny new Bose speakers... woof!!

In response to Patrick (the other one)-- Innovative carries a lot of HIGH high-end audio/video products. You have "consultations" there, you don't go there looking for Bose products because they probably do not even carry them. Any serious audio person knows that Bose is overrated and heavily marketed (they took their cue from Apple). If you want the all-in-one type setup and don't care THAT much about actual sound quality, then Bose is probably just right.

Harvey is a step above J&R in terms of the products they carry-- they likely have Bose.

Having never actually used it but being a serious lover of Rhapsody I'd reccomend the sonos system while trying to lay off their, what looks to be, somewhat overpriced speakers. It seems to me you can run sonos into a multi-channeled system and pick up relatively inexpensive satellite speakers, getting away from the package systems from J&R with their vig.

Hey Josh--

Can you decipher the "run sonos into a multi-channeled system and pick up relatively inexpensive satellite speakers" portion of your post for me?

Perhaps even throw out some possible brand names to explore. Thanks in advance.

I use and love Rhapsody as well. Sonos is expensive though and there are much more afforable ways of streaming music subscription services through your stereo (Roku?).

Jonathan appears to be looking into systems that will provide good stereo sound quality but also work for home theater & movies. His main options are all-in-one home theater in a box type systems or seperate components with home-theater capabiities. Depends how much he wants to spend.

Personally, I like putting my DVD/TV through my 2-channel stereo (which I bought 7 years ago from Innovative Audio) and it sounds great. Why would anyone want to put shitty sound through multiple speakers? Doesn't make any sense to me...

For satellite speakers, I'd go with Paradigm. You can get inexpensive ones that are quite nice. I also like B&W. A sonos zone player is simply a source component with a nice little amp in it. There is no need to plug it into anything else. This is great, as the zone player is actually quite small and can be hidden easily. It's also not bad looking, so it's fine to have it out.

Unless you have actually multi-channel audio recordings (which at this point wouldn't work on a sonos or most other network players), I fail to see the point of turning stereo music into multi-channel. And if you do have multi-channel audio recordings already, you're probably not interested in playing stuff back over a system like Sonos.

Bose: No high frequencies and you pay through the nose for the brand. Some folks really like the soft Bose sound. Not me.

Take a couple of your CDs and hit the audio shops and big-box electronic retailers and audition equipment. I agree with Jamie: Buy the cheapest equipment that sounds best to you. A few bargains to watch out for: Panasonic digital receivers, Infinity Primus bookshelf speakers and Athena floorstanding speakers.

If you really care about audio quality, good mid-fi brands like NAD and Rotel will do nicely, and they won't set you back $8,000+.

Jeffery

ptoo,

the sonos has speakers level coming out the back, so smaller speakers can run directly off the sonos (because it has an amplifier in it). so most small speakers will work fine and be plenty loud for small spaces.

it also has line level out, so you can run the output from the sonos into a receiver, or even a bookshelf system with line-in (usually this is an aux-input). any receiver would have inputs, only some bookshelfs do.

it's an expensive, but user friendly solution. you can find cheaper solutions (like an ipod dock with a remote) that runs into a receiver but i'm still looking for one that does everything i want!

for the record, i told my brother jonathan that i'm sure there are some HTIB systems that will sound perfectly fine (i would go denon over bose). i'm sure they're great, i'm just happy with a 2 speaker component system that i can upgrade gradually, over time. if he wants to interpret the fact that i like one thing and am recommending to him another as snobby, well....big surprise. he's insecure and unstable.

now, ethan. that guy is a snob! (he's right, though.)

I'll also add that while there are less expensive ways of streaming music, none have the amazing UI of Sonos. I don't work for them, but I do design home theaters as a side business. I've never seen anything have the great UI of Sonos at the price point. It's simply that good.

Yes you can buy a Roku or a Squeezebox for $300. But then you'll need an amp, because those don't have amps. Oh, and you'll be left controlling the setup from either your computer, or from the anemic little remotes they give you. Try scrolling through 5000 audio tracks with the little two line display. Not fun. Analagous to the Roku and Squeezebox options would be the ampless Zone Player 80, which is going to be $350 (only $50 more than the comparable squeezebox).

$900 from Sonos gets you the first distribution point, a nice little amp, and a super slick wireless full color remote. You can also control it from any computer in your house.

You can add on additional rooms by just adding another zone player.

i can't believe my own brother has turned against me on a public message board. Jordan, i REALLY should have let Uncle A. molest you

This gets better and better :)

Ptoo, others have already given better advice than I could for the kind of set up you want. The only thing I would say is that using your ipod as a source - which is something I wanted to do - may not be that user friendly if you want to change songs etc without having to go to the ipod to use the wheel and to see where you are navigating to. Basically, a remote would make it easier but you still have the problem of seeing what's on the screen when using the remote.

I completely agree with Jeffery-- you have to audition equipment yourself with your own music.

I'm not into brand recommendations generally-- for all you know, the guy that recommended a particular Bose system also listens to Celine Dion.

Most decent hi-fi stores carry NAD and Rotel. Arcam makes great stuff as well-- I have an Arcam CD player and integrated amplifier and haven't had one issue since I bought them in 1999. They sound great and there's absolutely no need for home-theater/surround sound.

by way of clarification, isn't it possible to run sonos module through a home stereo system, obviating the need to purchase multiple zone players just like any other a/v connection? use the sonos functionality but handle the audio from that and all devices in one contained unit?

OK, time for a change:

I was searching for a kitchen I liked in the kitchen competition (to show to a friend at work) and somehow came across this thread:
http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/ny/011206/see-my-artwork/see-my-artwork-contest-1-pamelas-red-room-005839

I recall someone asking about the tree mural but don't recall if anyone found the link. In case they did not there it is.

Now onto the kitchen:
http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/ny/031005/competitions/kitchen-3-aidas-fabulousness-002246

Long shot but I'm wondering if the Kathryn who is the friend of Aida is the same Kathryn from Chicago with that great loft. Luigi lives in NYC so it's not that far fetched.

Josh, I guess you could do that but it would seem to defeat the purpose. Why pay the premium for a great UI and the ability to play music all over the house (and play different music in each zone), when you are just going to take one unit and plug it into another? Now you have two remotes, have removed the ability to play separate music in each zone, and have tethered all the controls to one specific area.

If you have other audio sources besides digital music and radio (vinyl?), then a network player isn't really the solution you're looking for.

Max,

Thanks for all the great info on Sonos. I have been looking at them for a while now and will probably take the plunge soon. I was hoping you might be able to recommend good satellite stereo speakers to go with the Sonos.

I plan to hook the Sonos up to the pre-wiring in my bedroom and living room. I think I would prefer something that is hooked to the wall like the small Bose speakers (but not Bose) rather than an in-wall set up. I like the look of the small cubes better (my attempt to tie speakers to design so we can continue to hi-jack an open thread for this!)

Thanks for your help.

Jeremy

That's a reasonable point. To me the Sonos is leveraging Rhapsody's extensive catalog and pretty slick u/i. I suppose I'd lean on existing sound solutions and plug that in primarily for it's content. I rarely have the need for two simultaneous rhapsody instances running different things but that's probably because my apartment is more or less one large room anyway

jamie pup--
That was one of my very favorite kitchens in that contest, and had contacted Aida during those wonderful AT times when our names linked directly to email addresses. She is very very pleasant and obviously very talented.

I have her contact info (email) if interested. Email me at:
hatrickdesign@netscape.net

Jeremy--
I agree with the lust for those sugar cube speakers from Bose... anything similar out there the audiophiles would endorse?

Wow. Can we vote again on forums versus open threads?

Sorry jamie pup -- I don't know anyone named Aida! I used to live in NYC and that's how I know Luigi...

Kathryn in Chicago w/loft

I am so confused now. Is it Karthryn or Luigi? Do you guys share a computer? My head is spinning. We need forums with easily identifiable names because it is getting hard to keep track of who is who. Except for Jonathan :)

Jeremy,
Kathryn is in Chicago, she no longer has access to AT at work since her company changed servers and she misses AT very much during the day, so I am placing her posts after I email her the current open thread posts. Being her best friend it is the least I can do.

Two Jeremys agree - we need a forum around here!

Re: voting on forums vs. open threads.

In the interest of preserving the "therapy" aspect of the site in the truest form possible...

I believe that it needs to remain in an open thread format to best create the general group therapy process and the postives that come out from dynamic group interaction...

Which is not explicitly highly structured, and almost always is most valuable to the group members when the therapist/group leader (dare i say maxwell) does not explicitly structure any sessions (with the exception of maybe the 1st one, but the site was launched long ago now).

Now, there are therapy groups created w/ specific interests/presenting issues/problems in mind, so I suppose AT could create forums for specific areas of AT relevant stuff, but even within those areas, i would again push for open threads to best foster true group therapy interaction.

-k

This is typical of you jerks. We have had an intense, lively debate here about stereos and just because a couple of you happen to be more interested in the thread count of your sheets today, you want to cut me off at the knees. have you ever seen such selfishness? neither have i

P2,
Here are some cool looking small speakers that are supposed to be decent quality:
http://orbaudio.com/
http://www.roundsound.com/default.htm

I think the word "therapy" is being taken just the tiniest bit too literally here.

Jonathan-

it appears that you are very enthusiastic about the differing opinions (and you seem to value the true benefits of intense debates) that you encounter here, and you even feed off them to get good information for yourself.

however, everytime someone suggests a differing opinion you are not ready to hear, perhaps because you find to be a personal attack, you lash out at them- for doing exactly what you originally say you value ... i.e. differing opinions and group process.

do you notice this?

does anyone else notice this?

-k

Curtis-

i totally agree, but in fact this format- at least for me makes sites like this more beneficial and real. that's basically all i'm saying.

-k

Kelly: I lash out because, beneath this handsome exterior and winning charm, beats the black heart of homicidal maniac.

So spare me the finger-wagging, please.

Remember when you all used to just ignore trolls and lurkers?

Luigi thanks for the explanation and your a true friend to be a proxy poster for Kathryn!

I think fora and flax (threads -- sorry, couldn't help it) can co-exist like flora and fauna. It could be like, "click my name for a link to the room I've just created to discuss this" or something like that.

Guys, can't you see a troll when one shambles out in front of you?

Sometimes every site needs a little tweak on the nose, and this has been a pretty benign one.

You spelled my name wrong... it's Kellen. And, your sarcasm, as well as your overall presence are essentially the same when it comes to their overall usefulness to this group, IMO.

and, what you may take as finger wagging, is bascially just me pointing out what you're doing-- just calling the process.

take it how you will

-k

Kellen -- Actually, noticing Jonathan's behavior has not been high on my to-do list for quite a while.

It's fairly well-documented in the research literature that online group dynamics are dramatically different from in-person group dynamics, partly because of the lack of redundancy in the communication channels, partly because there are few consequences to anti-social behavior, partly because the interaction is ordinarily asynchronous. So I'm not sure how far I'd want to apply techniques from in-person group therapy.

Hey Kathryn and Luigi, thanks for the response. Sucks when you can't get to sites from work. Afterall, what are you supposed to do all day?

Thanks Ptoo too.

I am anti-social now? what is the matter with you people? for christ's sakes

Yes he is! Now if only someone (AT or my company) would just switch ISPs so that I could access it again, life would be perfect! And Luigi could get on with his regular job.

- Kathryn

Wende-

all very very true. however, this is still a group that i'm a part of. And, I still find it valuable and important to humanistically respond & connect (not just apply techniques), at least initially, the way I would in any other group to which i belong.

i've never simply turned away from or ignored trolls (online- or even their in-person counter parts). there is always a great deal to be learned from difficult/differing interaction- whether or not the typical dynamics of online groups don't parallel those of in-person groups, I (and i am only speaking for myself) still find no harm in attempting to deal with problems and connect as if they were face-to-face.

Others may (and i think do) have histories with Jonathan on the site. I don't, so I am speaking on this for the 1st issue and living what I know right now. Over time, that may (and if patterns hold, will) change and I adhere to the values (or non-values) and norms and dynamics of typical on-line groups.

i honestly, just view this group as different (i.e. i hold it in higher regard) from other on-line groups.

-k

Well, we all hope, I'm sure, to meet this handsome (!), social (?), charming (????) fellow in person at the upcoming AT party at DWR Tribeca on March 9th...

Off topic:

Looking to add an "oh, cool!" element to my kitchen and I think the oven is my best bang/buck option. Which do you think is better: AGA Legacy 36" model or Viking 30" model?

I'm not doing a sub-z, etc so on resale, this is my one nod to brand name glamour. Any thoughts

wow, like, wow.

i guess "open" thread means different things to different people.

My understanding is Maxwell created this site to help people create healthier homes, hence the "therapy" in "Apartment Therapy". I don't really think the aim was interpersonal dynamics building, and maybe that should happen offline in emails, although the soap opera aspect of this thread is kind of fabulous.

BTW, I'm Jen. Just wanted to formally say hi and delurk as I've started posting here without having done so. Great site, great boards. Let me know if I should differentiate myself from other Jens -- I know there are a lot of us out there.

wow. wow. wow. Interesting. Come on kids, let's all play nice. Y'all talk about thread-counts and whatnot a lot, so I'm all for shaking things up a little.

As for MissyElliot -- Viking over Aga. Agas are great, but I think there's just too much of an adjustment for most cooks (assuming you are in the US). Does the Aga Legacy have the "always on" feature that most Agas have?

I think its time for Jonathan to begin a new thread on Rachel Ray, an old favorite of his...

Sometimes I really miss the old, smaller AT.

I just think that these OTs get really, really long, and sometimes it's hard to find the postings -- whether it be sheets or audio equipment or leather sofas or paint colors -- that interest you. It's weird, too, that searching on the site itself doesn't always work, and sometimes you're more successful using Google to search AT.

Also, did I miss a new mission statement for AT? It's become very, very product-heavy. I vote for more Poet Laureate, more "On --- (fill in blank here)," more of Maxwell's book excerpts, more insight into Maxwell's work with his clients. . . And whatever happened to following up with the people who won the closet contest? Or the person last year who was searching for the perfect couch?

oh my god missy!
you have the choice over an AGA or a Viking?!!?!
how insanely jealous am i???
have you ever cooked on an aga?
i used one once when i was visting friends in the UK and it is a HUGE adjustment
but they're so elegant, and they really make you slow down and think about cooking
i think they're AMAZING!

i'd also love to see more of maxwell's work with clients.

by the way, I'm snehal, never posted before, though have been following the site for a while now.
you regulars are all just too wonderful. curtis, your paint-by-numbers masterpiece was FANTASTIC.

I should say that I'm looking at both of them for the name factor. I cook 3 meals a day and I'm sure I can do that on anything (I use a 50 yr+ old oven now that I light every time). I'm sure I'd love both, but they are both sorta the "faux" lines. The Legacy is nice, but it's a stainless steel body with the enamel cover and doesn't require a direct vent. It's about 10k less than the real thing. But it does come in the pretty colors. The Viking is the "made for the home" version so.. same look, not the 10 zillion BTUs.

But I do want at least one thing in the kitchen that is a name. Seems important on resale.

snehal -
Thanks! And welcome to the land of the posters!

There's no real reason for you not to chime in when you feel like it, even if you don't feel like an expert, because it's not really quite about that. There are plenty of topics in here that I kind of offer my two-cents, in a "this is just me talkin'" kind of stance, because there's some value in that kind of thing, too.

What's going on over here? I go to lunch and come back and 72 comments!

It's all good. Community building IS part of AT and exactly what we need if we want to take care of our homes. This is something i learned (and we all did) after 9/11 and this town really came together incredibly. I had never seen anything like that in my life as a New Yorker.

As for the bigger community, we hope it DOES grow but we're working on various things to keep the conversations focused and the keep the *cozy* feeling. One will probably be really simple forums like Urban Baby uses (I like their design the best) and the other is creating user accounts which will allow you to bypass all the code inputs, email one another directly and even - eventually - build your own page with your own collection of posts and/or furniture choices. Just give us a little time. We still got to work for our interior design clients to pay the rent. :-)

thanks, curtis, I will.

Hey -- i just wanted to clarify. I think this is a great community and I think it's great you all give eachother so much advice, feedback, friednship and support. I just was suprised by the line of discussion about structuring the posts like group therapy sessions.

Missy,

AGA. I'm sure if you sold tomorrow, the Viking would be more useful. Men have heard of Viking. Woman know AGA of course, but the men folk are a slow lot and need a minute to catch up on the It Range thing. But assuming you're moving in 2 years or more, the AGA will have caught on by then and will be cooler than the Viking. And it's really about being cool, right?

Hmm...I seem to have posted this on yesterday's juicy leather ongoing "chat". So I'm reposting here: (Busy, you know, with this start up jewelry business)

I have been swamped and not reading AT or posting much but after this thread and reading yesterday's thread about the horsehair (I will never ask a question about horsehair again...) I must say I so HEARTILY AGREE WITH P(TOO)on the basement thing.

Also, because I just can't help myself here, ANILINE is the name of the DYE, not the leather. Aniline Dye is for real or fake leather and other things. You can use it on wood, for instance, you just don't want it on your skin because it takes forever to go away. I have used aniline dye on furniture. The plastic coating on the leather is a separate issue.

Let's all be friends now. AT is a marvelous place. As my long departed Aunt Aida used to say to my mother and me "Fight nice"....

Posted by jmarieb at 02/23/06 2:57 PM

and......so I've missed so much, how do I find the excerpt from Maxwell's book?

MissyElliot-You might want to check with a realtor on sinking big cash into a specific item to up your resale value, if you already haven't (or maybe you're in the realty business yourself?). That particular item may or may not be worth it, in the context of your place and the market. Some other improvement might be more worth it.

jmarieb-
:D

Good answer, Maxwell!

Maxwell: Excellent. I love the idea of user accounts and being able to email directly. Seems there are many "regulars". Much fun at AT. Well done.

Pixie: Ditto

Maxwell: I think the ideas I've read sound excellent as well. I'm sort of new here, but I'm just so impressed by the community feel of this site. The vast majority of posters here seem like the sort of people one would dream of having for neighbors...

Pixie: my realtors advice was fancy everything. She said: SubZ fridge, Viking or Wolfe range, and Miele or Bosche DW. And she said cheap cabinets were okay. I couldn't find cheap cabinets that I liked, so I'm getting nice ones and I love them~ but now I need to get cheaper (plenty expensive!) appliances. So already I've gone against the realtors advice. Besides, isn't fancy everything today going to be all old stuff in 5 years?

Closet Deodorizer Question -

-What do you use, if anything, to keep your closet smelling nice and fresh?

-Are there other benefits that the product provides other than the nice smell?

-What about suitcases or closed trunks/boses that are seldom used?

Thanks,

jmarieb, here you go: http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/ny/022206/apartment-therapy-on/the-eight-step-home-cure-excerpt-i-006640

peacelamp: I like lavender sachets and I have some that were an especially swank gift -- I'll try to find out where they came from. The time honored smell better/keep away moths solution is cedar, but I seem to remember hearing that it doesn't really work. Anyone else know about that?

Hey Maxwell, what do you like about the urban baby forum? I have always found them disorganized and difficult to search. I much prefer the phpbb type forum such as the one on dailyheights.com

Search tools are good, most recent posts move to the top dynamically, easy to create topics etc.

Just for the sake of throwing it out there --I think Yay Hooray (http://www.yayhooray.com/) has evolved into the perfect online forum. You might want to take a look to that for some ideas.

I'll go back to lurking now...

Best,

...After I post the correct link: http://www.yayhooray.com/

Best,

Where is the info on this AT party at DWR, March 9th that Patrick(too) mentions?

PeaceLamp, I second the lavender sachets - I put them *everywhere* - boxed storage, hanging in the closet, stacked in among my towels - I even put loose lavender inside the cushions of my couch. I don't know about any benefits, but it sure smells lovely!

I've always liked the forums at videofitness.com - they use a software commonly utilized at many online communities. You have to register to post and they have moderators. It's pretty hard for users to register with more than one ID, as they do monitor IP addresses and manage to keep most trolls out.

Or see the organization of the boards at digsmagazine.com; easier to find what you're looking for.

Missy-- an Aga is in the $7-10K+ range and has special installation requirements--it's really heavy (and the small one is 39")! Viking has a much lower entry point, especially in the small size. Given that Aga also has lower name recognition (and requires different cooking techniques AND is always hot--which will turn off many folks who DO recognize the name), I wouldn't even consider it if you are only buying a "name" for resale. Unless resale is five or more years away and you'll get to enjoy it until then.

pretty sure Missy is right. those Legacy agas are smaller, cheaper, ventless, etc.

PeaceLamp: you can purchase cedar balls and put them drawers, closets, wherever. Lavender sachets would make your home smell like a cheesey-ass Yankee Candle Store or one of those hideous Christmas stores with their wretched spiced candles and stupid little miniature christmas houses or some godforsaken holly-hobby house in the midwest full of bric-a-brac. i would sooner spray my home with a fine mist of sewage before using lavendar sachets, which by the way are "juiced" by scented oils and chemicals and make your clothes smell as if you had soaked them in some sort of douching fluid. cedar is much more attractive smelling. cheers!

. . . while others of us love the scent of lavender.

IP addresses ... aren't those the DNA/SS# of your individual computer? Only problem with that is that I like to access AT from home AND work. So... wouldja hafta kinda find those #'s and e-mail them into the webmaster and plead for admission on that 2nd one? Or ... actually, when I'm at a friend's place, I'll sometimes have a look, as well.

Hmmmmm....

And ... March 9? I'd never heard about that, but I'm penciling it in, just in case my other plan doesn't happen, because I'd hate to miss one of these.

March 9 - Saw the party under "Events" on main page yesterday. Trying to book a flight (not, but wish)!

peacelamp: for a quick fix, why not try some dryer sheets. i love the idea of lavender as well but am not such a big fan of the cedar balls. maybe for long term storage, but day-to-day, they just make me itchy and i find that the scent permeates my clothing too much.

Curtis -- Public forums use IP addresses as a means of identifying possible troublemakers, but they don't use 'em as the main means of giving access to the forum, for exactly the reason you mention (people wanting access from various computers).

I'd imagine what we'll see is something like Invision boards, which give registered members access to a ton of features that are invisible to the unwashed masses.

Sorry to keep bringing up Yay Hooray, but one cool thing they do is keep track of all user names that originate from a respective IP, so if a troll keeps changing avatars you can see it in their profile. It's not so Big Brother as to lock people out, but it still lets you know who to be wary of...

Best,

Actually the smell of cedar always makes me think of gerbils in cages. I prefer lavendar.

I love the idea of forums, but let's pray that any forums here don't become as catty and competitive as Urban Baby. Those people are meaaaan! :P

The people there exemplify all my darkest fears about becoming a psychotically competitive parent in New York! (Of course, all my friends seem to have managed to stay completely normal, so maybe those people just started out as psychotically competitive)

I think it's exciting to be part of the evolution of this particular site. In some ways I should probably "get out more", as in explore the web more, but this has really become such a fun place to be, that it's what I tend to keep open most of the time that I'm on a computer.

Curtis, well put. I too feel sometimes that I should get out more, but I feel happy & comfortable with such nice people in AT. I started following the site because I too am a city dweller/have to make do with a small apt. and therefore the ideas all of you have are very helpful. I love that people like you are in this community, Curtis, you're a sweetheart. Thoughtful, informative and charming. P2 as well, and others, of course!
Oh, and just loving the new kitchen feature too!
(sheesh, there's an awful lot of loving going on!)

Curtis: Your point is well taken.

I greatly enjoy AT and can't really get out more due to reality of business. I've had many incarnations of being an artist and once had a interior surface design business (all that faux marble and everything). Since I no longer do this and am not a design "maven", AT keeps me up to date on things. I find I need fewer design mags, etc.

Besides, some of the people on here are really, really funny. It's unique.

Good day to all!

Miss one day and 1,000 things happen.

I went to Expo when I was looking for a stove/oven and saw the AGA and had never heard of them. I went to their website to try and learn more about them (even though it was about $4000 out of my price range). I am JUST learning how to cook and learning what medium-high heat really means, so a whole nuttha way of thinking wasn't in the cards for me.

I think I'll have to be making a trip out to NYC on the 9th