apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

Say hi to kathryn!! I hope she is there... she is a blast!

Has anyone attended the WaterWorks warehouse sale in the past, and more importantly is it worth the trek from NYC? I'm about to reno a small bathroom, looking for tile, new sink, etc..

Nancy

Would anyone be able to suggest a source in NYC for baseboards (aside from Home Depot)?

Brian,

Wood-o-rama (upper west side) is where I get my wood cut to size and I see LOTS of moulding there (I think including baseboards - you could call them).

Waterworks is not at all worth the money - even on sale their prices are outrageous and now, their supposedly "unique" style is definitely overdone.

I suggest picking a style, then look online for the parts - I found dorhbracht worthy hardware from grohe for a tenth the price!
I found a gorgeous vessel glass sink from home depot (Pegasus brand) and tiles from Hakatai.com.

Limestone floor and marble counter from a local dealer i found online, paint from benjamin moore, and I have a spa worthy bathroom for the price of just a waterworks tub!!

I also got my tub from home dept for $200!!

Hi P2,

Thanks for the shout-out! I am never one to pass on a good party, so I will be definitely be there. Unfortunately, I couldn't convince Luigi to fly in for it, even though the weather is great and the annual Ferraris on Oak Street event is on Sunday.

Looking forward to meeting Maxwell!

I have a question about installing a ceiling fan in my apartment. My apartment has concrete ceilings and no ceiling light fixtures. Is it possible to anchor a ceiling fan in the concrete ceiling and run the power from a wall outlet? Does anyone have tips on this type of installation? Summer is on the way and I’d prefer not to clog up my windows and ruin my views with air-conditioners!

Jason -- we installed a ceiling fan in traditional sheetrock covered ceiling -- it required installing a special box anchored to the ceiling beams. For your situation I would suggest professional help (or at least that of the building's super)-- ceiling fans are one fixture you want to get right the first time!

Jessica -- Many thanks for the Wood o Rama tip. Looks perfect for what I need. And their Website comes with such musings:

"When prehistoric man first scratched an image onto his cave wall with a rough-hewn implement, whatever his reasons, design was born."

Jason, there are two ways of achieving this but both involve not just an electrician but someone (who may be the electrician) to do the anchoring to concrete work:

1. Dig (with a jackhammer) a channel into the concret from the point at which you want to hang the fan to the wall where the switch will be. Where the fan will hang will need a deeper and wider hole to accomodate the electrical box from which the fan will hang and get its power. Box will be secured and set into more concrete as will the bx cable in the ceiling channnel. Total cost for nyc will be in the $2000 range.

2. Use tapcons to secure the box and rigid metal cable housing to the ceiling. You have probably seen this in warehouses. Cost - much cheaper but I don't know how much exactly.

OK, so when I googled for tapcon to give you a link in case you did not know what it was, I came across this discussion which questions whether tapcons could hold a fan box (due to vibrations) for more than a year or two, with suggestions for other concrete fastening hardware and methods:
http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=119621

When custom furinture attacks - HELP!

Just curious if anyone has ever had custom piece of furniture made and how it went down?

I just took the plunge and had a $2000 sofa made - major investment for me. I put $500 down as a deposit, then pay the rest on delivery.

Yesterday was delivery day - and the piece was awful. it didn't have buttons tufted where they were supposed to be. It's a sleek, trim design, but my sofa was overstuffed (i.e. it looks like a portly fellow shoved himself into a slim cut Prada suit). And worst of all, the chocolate brown velvet I picked for uphostery looks like ultra suede (when you rub your hand over the nap, it leaves a big handprint, etc). I wanted luxe; this looks cheap.

Now, I called my salesperson, explained my issues and had them take the sofa back (i wasn't ready to pay the reminder with certified check when I wasn't happy).

What now? I have plans to go back and look at the small swatch I picked to compare with the sofa, but I feel a little baitn'switched. I was so clear about wanting velvet and this, even if it is called velvet, does not look like velvet at all. Even the delivery guy was referring to it as ultrasuede. As was my neighbor - a fashion designer and textile junkie - who came over to check it out.

her immediate repsonse was, "Jesus, what the hell is that in your lving room?"

Do I try to let them fix it? Or just demand my deposit back (which I can get back via my credit card, but it will be a fight), move along and shop elsewhere?

I have to say when my salesperson doesn't get the concept of the ultrasuede look vs. velvet, I'm not feeling so confident.

I never signed a contract saying they could keep my deposit.

I wouldn't be so bothered if it were a $600 sofa, but this is a sucker i'd use every day for years. I want to love it for the money. Do I just suck it up and go to Room & Board? At least I'll know what I'm gettin'.

Anybody else ever been in this situation? What do you do?

Help, AT peeps. This an SOS.

Thanks.

shauna--
I think the details you should focus on are:
The amount of stuffing of what you got versus what you saw
The tufting

and then check to see if the swatch is a match. If it *is* I think you are stuck on that front.

Bypass the salesperson. Go direct to the manager.

I'd be REALLY surprised if on a custom order, something *somewhere* did not indicate no returns, or a "restocking charge" either with or without the deposit involved.

Is this generally a reputable dealer? $5000 is no small amount to pay, so you should be happy, but there is a fair amount of leap of faith with any custom order, and even those with the best visualization skills can be suprised.

Good luck!

ps: Not all velvets are created equal. The lush plush velvet you no doubt dreamt of is often a silk velvet. But your sofa would have been even more. But all velvet, especially dark colors, have a "nap" that shows handprints, etc. when you have rubbed against the grain of the fabric.

Shauna,

When we got our made-to-order sofa we got a sample of the fabric to take with us. I thought that this was handy when thinking of decorating the rest of the room, but now I'm also thinking it's handy to compare with the actual sofa when it comes.

Definitely go back to the store and compare the swatch to your sofa. Hopefully you have the name of the fabric written down on your order form?

And was there a sofa in the shop of the design that you selected? Or did you just pick it off a drawing or a picture?

I wouldn't get another sofa from those same people or get them to fix your current sofa. Just try to get your money back or walk away.

Our sofa is a sofa bed from Carlyle. I would highly recommend them. They make non-sofa bed sofas too.

Can anyone who's had first-hand experience w/ the quality, look, and durablility of foldbedding (www.foldbedding.com) comment on its overall value ... i'm considering the "Slim" bedspread and shams ... very pricy- so i'm a bit hesitant

and all orders are custom, so no returns- i'd just like to know what some others have thought who have actually seen them in person-

thanks.

-Kellen

Andree or anyone else who likes solving problems:

I decided to replace the BANNISTER in my staircase, the one with the jerusalem tiled risers and the frosted glass wall. Where can i find a thin, sleek, perhaps brushed metal bannister? I have no idea where to look.

Jaime Pup has the right idea. I did method #2 for my fans and I'm very happy with it.

Jonathan, I promise this is not a snippy message, and I post with the best of intentions. It's spelled "banister" -- only one N. Maybe that will help with an initial Google search...?

Now THAT made me laugh.

does anyone have any suggestions about the best way to utilize the space atop a refrigerator? we have about a 6' fridge and a 10' ceiling, with no cabinets above the fridge.

That's where I keep all the dust in my house.

But seriously, you need to keep it somewhat free for ventilation reasons (I think), but I have a large stoneware platter up there that doesn't fit in the cabinets.It also still allows me to open the cabintes above, which is wehre I keep vases I don't need everyday.

For your situation, rather than place stuff atop the fridge, I'd do floating shelves in the space above, allowing a little clearnace between lowest shelf and fridge top.

(I am so dyslexic today! Srroy!)

Brian -
AJO Hardware and Lumber moved to Columbus and 89th (or so?) but they still have baseboards and other moldings.

Also, there's Dyke's Lumber on 44th, between 8th and 9th.

And Metropolitan Lumber has two locations -- 11th Avenue between 45th and 46th and somewhere in SoHo. You can get baseboards at any of those, and you can even get them to cut them for you for a small cutting fee. I've used all three of them at various times for various projects.

Jess,
I keep my microwave, pressure cooker (too big for cabinets) and paper towels there. I don't have as much of a clearance as you, and the walls on the sides of my fridge hide the stuff. I don't think you have to worry about ventilation unless the back AND top is covered completely covered, but I like the shelves idea. Depending on how it would look for you and your storage needs, I've also seen people have one of those baking sheet organizers (with the rows of pegs) and store their cutting boards and pans up there. Another idea might be a pot rack attached to the ceiling.

Look the extra N was a goddamned typo, okay? it's not easy being me, people. it's not easy

Here are the pictures of the staircase:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31415264@N00/123254480/in/set-72057594106915555/

and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31415264@N00/123254489/in/set-72057594106915555/


As you can see, the current banister is flush against the wall so you can't really grip it correctly because it doesn't stick out (the contractor said stairway too narrow. i think he's wrong). It somehow is not ergonomically "right" when you are walking up and down the stairs.

Patrick, help me out on this:
1. should the banister be wood at all? Would a more modern brushed metal banister be better?
2. where could i find a banister that you recommend?

Just remember that "just a typo" comment the next time you go friggin' ballistic on another poster.

I didn't recommend anything about a banister.

Jonathan. The finished stairwell looks great. I think cable rails systems are cool; but, you don't need that since you've enclosed one side with the glass. You just need a simple handrail, right? Several options are here. http://www.wagnercompanies.com/Product_Index.aspx I think I prefer the look of metal for your contemporary-looking stairwell.

Enrique, thanks. Patrick, i was asking for your advice on whether you think wood vs metal banister

I have no advice for you.

i just want to report that i successfully restrained myself from going completely ape shit bitchy on jonathan's flickr set of his renovation. one step at a time, i can totally do this...

as for banisters. i would stick with wood, because there are so many beautiful wood elements in the rest of the house and that will keep things cohesive. it seems like you have a beautiful home -- it might help to keep that fact in mind as you renovate rather than introducing a lot of flashy stuff that doesn't necessarily work in the space.

i will say, however, that from the pictures it looks like jonathan bought and is renovating an entire brownstone?

if that's true, this is a CRIME. a crime against home design.

You are a late arrival to that party.

Opoponax -- Repeat after me, "My, Jonathan, your renovation leaves me speechless."

I would like to use CrateandBarrel's Elements as book shelves (in two's)and a room divider:

http://www.crateandbarrel.com/family.aspx?c=991&f=6393&q=element&fromLocation=Search&DIMID=400001&SearchPage=1

I've seen IKEA's economical and functional EXPEDIT used EVERYWHERE and I wanted to try something new.

Does anyone have any input? Thanks

is EXPEDIT the system that's built to account for uneven floors and ceilings? because that's just about the only think i can think of that would make the crate & barrel less ideal.

i wish i needed room dividers. i've always loved EXPEDIT, this crate & barrel system, and those big canvas room divider lamps from ikea. unfortunately my place would be a better candidate for knocking down walls than putting them up...

Shauna and anyone else looking for custom:

Educate yourself about the trade first. When I had my custom sectional made I researched furniture fabricators and upholsterers - NOT retail establishments. I then visited onsite to tour the workroom facility, met the owner, saw them working on goods. Then I popped in a month or two later to see how it was going. If they have a problem with that, ditch 'em.

Then learn about fabrics. Velvet is super fun and lush but not all are the same and many don't wear well. If you have your heart set, get it protected (fiber-shield). One spill of water on velvet and it's all over, you almost never get the nap back without professional help.

Custom is a whole other world and it's expensive for a reason - because you should get EXACTLY what you want.

opponax,

I'm not sure if the EXPEDIT is designed for that flooring, but I know it is frequently used for splitting alcove studios without making the place feel "less open."

I was also thinking of something from

www.raydoor.com

However, these options are quite costly and I would rather see money put into stainless steel appliances in the kitchen.

I'm putting in two huge walls of Raydoor in my place Juanito. The difference between that and an EXPEDIT is about the difference between a Bentley and one of those two wheeled tractor pulling devices you see in photos of semi-rural China. Gorgeous hand crafted quality vs. rugged and cheap utilitarianism.

That is to say, there is a place in the world for those tractor things, but it's not in my living room. You can't store anything in the Raydoors, but they are really well made and beautiful.

Personally, I'd rather have a showpiece like the Raydoor (which can slide if you like to open the space up) over the usual stainless appliances and the achingly common EXPEDIT.

Hey, if "achingly common" works, then go with it.

Curtis -- many thanks for the leads on where to get baseboards.

Impressive stencil job in your bathroom, by the way ). Pretty cool.

Jonathan, you know I love you, but those tiled stairs are weird. I would vote for a wood banister.

And it seems to me that the frosted glass thing on the side of the stairs is so that Jonathan's MIRACLE BABY doesn't fall. NEW LIFE IS A REMARKABLE THING, people.

Jonathan, if you were to be so convinced as to take down the frosted wall, couldn't you put the banister on that side?

Oh wow! My cousin and her husband's work is featured in today's NYT H&G section! Check it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/08/garden/08whitman.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Sorry, couldn't contain my enthusiasm long enough to wait for the weekly H&G wrap-up.

Mia--
Give it an effing rest on the baby thing, could ya? Didn't you embarrass yourself enough over there without having to dredge all that self-proclaimed bitchiness all over again here, too?

Sheez.

Enrique--
Way cool!!!

juanito, my mistake.

i was thinking of the norrebo system from ikea, which is the one that accounts for uneven floors and ceilings and which somehow reminds me of the elements series from CB, although now that i've googled it, it doesn't look all that similar after all.

either way, i've always liked expedit, too. very simple. utilitarian, yes, but utilitarian can often be a good thing. form follows function, right?

i think you should go with your gut - what do you like better? what would work in your space, and with your needs? expedit is a bit low to completely divide off a seperate room, for instance. it's also quite chunky, and i'm not sure that it comes in a finish other than laminate.

as to raydoor, while they look lovely, they are a totally different beast from either expedit or the elements series. i mean, they're basically shoji screens. and shoji screens, while lovely, don't work double duty as storage. the raydoor pieces also seem to be designed for use as doors or easily moveable partitions, whereas using a bookcase as a room divider is a more full time solution.

it's not so much the difference between a bentley and a tractor trailer as the difference between a bentley and a school bus. no matter what you do, you just can't cram 42 third graders into a bentley.

and i hope nobody ever attempts to test that assertation.

Very cool, Enrique!

The comment, "You are a late arrival to that party" led me to believe that the bitchiness was welcome here, Patrick. My apologies.

Enrique, that's fantastic!

Mia--
You compare THAT one line to the melee over on the other thread?!? Wow.

Enrique: way cool. I read the short biography on the store' site, it's not clear - does she also designs the lighting herself? But she's not formally a 'lighting designer',is she?

Hey, Tat. She works with interior designers and clients on the overall lighting design of specific sites; and doesn't design actual lighting products. [Her husband is the one with the background in architecture and industrial design.] She and her business partner have been in the field for a long-time, having worked together at the lighting department of a well-respected, high-end furniture showroom several years ago.

Enrique,

How cool! I always wonder how people fall into owning stores like that, so it's interesting to know her story.

"Modern" claw foot tub faucet and shower system?

My recent home purchase includes a wonderful clawfoot bathtub in dire need of faucet/shower system replacement. Most of the available tub filler/shower systems are Victorian-styled and I would prefer a more contemporary look. Grohe has a claw foot tub filler in their Atrio line but I'm not sure a shower system can be attached?

Anyone with any experience bringing a claw foot tub into the 21st century?

Has anyone ever used a product called "Re-New" on wood floors? Good or Bad?

minipanda:

If you email me at jeremy(at)boscodog(dot)com I can help you out.

Al, I used a product called Varathane Renewal
http://tinyurl.com/r9p6r
on a cruddy wooden floor that I thought was made from cruddy materials and therefore beyond saving, so didn't think it was worth sanding, etc. With this product, it came out great. I couldn't believe how good it looked. It was a multi-step process with drying in between, so it was a lot of work. And I had to call around to find the product, which I finally found at a Lowe's. (I needed it in a hurry so I couldn't wait to order it online.)

WENDE are you there? does the renovation totally suck?

Hi everyone! quick question. Where do you all get window boxes for flowers? I need someplace to buy them cheaply if possible, as my students' budget is severely limited. Also, where should I get seedlings? I live in Harlem. Thanks!!!!

Ruth, windowbox supplies, seedlings, etc. were featured in AT Kitchen. If you go to Kitchen and search window boxes you'll get some useful info.

Jonathan, why again do you want to replace it? Oh, okay, found it. No, you can't grip around it as it is. Ideally, people should be able to climb stairs without the aid of a railing. Unfortunately, for some of us (like me and my pain) railings are a very good thing. And yeah, it's helpful to grip them. It would be even more helpful if you'd install a reversible escalator that would carry people up or down. Or one of those motorized chairs for going up and a really fun slide to go down. Or an escalator to go up and a slide to go down.

Okay, so I started looking around and thought of some problems with metal. All kinds of metal. A lot of them will scratch...noticeably. You've seen it elsewhere in other forms, I'm sure. Stainless steel appliances or metal panels used in elevators. Brass hand and foot rails at some kinds of bars. Aluminum that is soooo soft. Those three may be maintenance-intensive. Do ya really want to spend your time buffing and polishing?

Secondly, when I touch some metals, like copper pennies, or stainless cat food dishes, I can literally TASTE the metal in my mouth. And no, I'm not sticking my change, cat dishes or hands in my mouth during the paying or washing process.

Even if other folks aren't as metal-sensitive as I am, they may put their hands in their mouths or some part of their hands or a fingernail, and get yucky metal taste. Could be handy if you're a fingernail biter. Otherwise, icky.

Measure out from the wall to the farthest point of your current solid railing. See if anything here looks good, just this area, the center and end posts in brass:
http://tinyurl.com/ovsay

Which you MAY be able to use in your application, along with a wood dowel kind of thing.

If you get some polished brass that has a coating, the coating WILL wear off over time and look like crap. Without the coating, you have to polish. And make your wife take off her undoubtably jumbo rock and other hand jewelry so she doesn't scratch it either way.

There's stainless tubing and brass here (same company):
http://tinyurl.com/sxrpe

I guess you use the tubing, pick an end-cap style, pick a support bracket or combination of supports, and use that glue at the bottom???

I think all-stainless might look nice, but might also look cold and a little too industrial or ADA-compliant.

All brass would warm up the stairwell, but also might give it the bar-Cheers look. Or Hooters, depending on your choice of wall art in the stairwell.

The stainless or brass wall fittings that wouldn't really be touched, along with a length of wood, that could be nice. I think that would be my preferred choice. A little shiny in a couple places. No carved swans or leaves or curlicues, just a gentle curve or straight out from the wall.

I was looking for solid acrylic rods, but didn't find any large enough, and don't know if they would flex or meet whatever standards are required.

Opoponax, why is it a "crime" to renovate a home?
***peering out from corner in dunce cap***

Andree, thanks...i think i have been convinced by other posters that the combination of wood treads, jerusalem tile and the frosted window are enough elements and metal would be just too many elements. so i need to find a wood banister to replace the crap one from Lowe's my contractor put in there. (I like the idea of mercilessly flogging the maid to keep the metal banister polished but i suppose it's not to be)

Quick question:

Does anyone have a tried-and-true wood furniture cleaner they can recommend?

I have a street-find solid wood and metal daybed that I'll be taking home with me tonight (sweeeeeet score), and I want to give it a good disinfecting wipe down/airing out before I put any of my bedding on it. All I have at home is Lysol and Pledge and maybe some Murphy's.

If anyone has any additional tips for cleaning up street finds, I'd be most appreciative.

Thanks!

it's a crime to buy an entire classic brooklyn brownstone and then renovate it in 'flashy modern' style. brownstones are the absolute most sought after housing in the city for architectural enthusiasts. they're mostly 19th and early 20th century construction, extremely high quality, and with all the 'bones' that go with that era. they're associated with new york city living in the way that victorians are associated with san francisco, prairie school is associated with the chicago area, etc.

so buying one and completely gutting it to put in trendy 21st century McMansion touches (spa style bathrooms, vessel sinks, stainless steel appliances, custom tiling everywhere) that clash with its bones and will immediately date it is extremely cringeworthy. most people who buy brownstones at least try to take their 19th century bones into account. some even spend years lovingly restoring them to their full gilded age glory.

my 'apartment that got away' was a room in a fully restored brownstone in prospect heights. this single and childless older woman had bought it in the 70's when it was completely derelict and dedicated her life to restoring exactly within the period. the house was her family, basically. since it was just her in that huge house (brownstones are typically 4 stories high with several bedrooms), she rented the bedrooms she wasn't using to local college students. for basically no money -- she bought the place for next to nothing so the mortgage was paid off ages ago. the thought that i could have lived in a lovingly restored period brownstone for like $350 a month STILL burns me...

which is probably why i'm taking jonathan's reno so personally.

I swear I must miss about 75% of what goes on around here, so I'll try to answer Jonathan.

I think the wood treads, tile, and frosted window are a lot of elements already AND I think your contractor is right that it's too skinny to have a traditional banister. What would be cool, and maybe fit into you scheme, would be a recessed banister, cut into the drywall (I assume). It would be white and sort of disappear. It also is probably the kind of thing that costs a zillion dollar and you may run into an issue with studs. But I have seen it done and it's a pretty elegant solution.

Opoponax, i totally respect your view on this. I stress about it constantly. My big fear throughout this whole thing was that the renovation would end up a design nightmare and a total abortion. I should note that the ground floor (where the kitchen is) was already renovated with the stainless, etc., so we did not exactly inject modernism into it although we had the wood refinished and i totally updated the lighting (a decision i stand by, as i love recessed halogens). Bathrooms had to be updated for structural reasons, and yes, i did a lot of custom marble work. We have kept the upstairs (bedroom) floors more traditional but I cannot deny the ground floor is more modern. I don't know. I wanted to achieve a slightly more modern, zenlike, version of the brownstone because i have always found the Victorian look to be sort of...heavy, for lack of a better term. I am hoping it pulls together but perhaps it won't. i don't disagree with your sentiments though. this is all very depressing.

opoponax -- it sounds like you are assuming that jonathan ripped out all the period moldings, etc.

now, I have no idea if he did that or not, and you are correct that many people like the period look, BUT a LOT of brownstones in the NYC area are, frankly, total cr*p on the inside. At our friends' modern brownstone, the moldings were ripped out looong ago, by some other owner. Sometimes the buildings were literally slums before being bought by a renovator like mr. jonathan here.

I think that when the interior is already too far gone to restore, there is no harm in putting modern interiors in.

Enrique, catching up on some of the threads here. Very cool about your sister. Guess great taste runs in the family. Hey, can we get an AT discount? ;-) Ha, ha.

I agree with me. Uh..."me". You're going to have to change your name, me, as it sounds stupid to "agree with me" or "disagree with me".

There are oodles of buildings, homes, that I looked at online, and a long time back, in person.

I think the best one, example wise, was one that was now in an industrial zone, was uninhabitable due to an interior-gutting fire, and needed a new foundation. It's like "oh, could there possibly be anything else wrong with it?"

But it was a cute little house in the exterior pictures. Which avenue does one choose? To follow the original style, none or little of which remain (just the outer shell), or create something that reflects our own taste?

Ever see Beetlejuice? Same house, two different looks. Wildly different. Is one wrong and the other right? Some would say yes. Some would say it embraces the old in a new way.

Why does the outside have to match the inside? Does it? Does the inside have to match the outside? It sure doesn't work that way with people and their appearances.

There's the "Halo Effect" where people that appear to be attractive are also assumed to be smarter, richer, nicer, etc. Which would make less attractive people less attractive internally. That isn't so, is it? There is a vast range of outsides and insides that don't match up.

And I figure whatever is on the inside, house or person, is what makes ourselves the happiest. Jonathan didn't do a Beetlejuice thing to the outside of the house. It still works with the neighborhood.

Jonathan, will you flog me if I dress up in the frilly maid's uniform, regardless of banister?

Quite right, the moldings were all ruined and the inside was crap when we got there. i didn't really tear any of the period elements down.


Andree, if you were to dress up in a frilly maid's uniform, my guess is that we can think of all kinds of fun things to do

OF COURSE in the case of a fire destroying the interior of a house that's a different story.

But it's not about "matching the inside and outside." It's about the potential waste of something true and unique and beautiful (if it still exists) as a symptom of how sadly disposable we think our architectural history is.

If you want a modern house, buy or build a frickin' modern house.

But if you buy a (salvageable) vintage house, don't gut the appeal out of it because it's simply not your taste. BUY YOUR TASTE.

And a vintage/restored shell does NOT preclude a modern sensibility. The Brits do it, and beautifully, all the time.

I'm not saying live with an outdated kitchen or plumbing. I'm just saying I think the best interiors come out of respect to the building, and not when someone's sensibility is force-fit into the framework.

And for those who think "well, so many brownstones are so far gone..." I suggest you catch an episode or two of Generation: Renovation or If These Walls Could Talk on HGTV.

Flogging the maid would be rather period-inappropriate. For a brownstone, the maid should be switched or strapped, perhaps paddled. But Jonathan's brownstone is a modern rennovation, so perhaps a more modern method should be employed. I'm so confused. Damn you and your mixed stylings Jonathan! You've caused an aesthetic crisis in my pervy little mind!

ha, max, you just made me spit up poland spring all over the keyboard. boy wait till you people see the next round of pictures, i'm really going to be crucified because i have now displayed the large statues from india i had sent over, carved from mango trees. i wish i was kidding, but i'm not.

I don't know about the whole "stay true to period" thing--this has thrown me into a mini philosophical crisis (very mini) because on the one hand, I believe in historical preservation, but on the other hand, people should be able to do what they feel is best with what they own and are going to live in. I think it's ideal to keep the integrity of the original structure, and sure, it would be wonderful to see it brought back to its former glory, but that's really only done a fraction of the time...even in Britain and Europe. The present conveniences always have people re-doing and retrofitting, etc. Sometimes this is done well, and sometimes not so well. It's not like Jonathan's renovations, from what I can tell, could not be un-done by some future owner who completely loves old-style brownstone style and wants to rehab in a historically accurate way. People buy real estate for reasons other than the architecture. Some people may LOVE Victorian (imagine!), but can only acquire a modern ranch style home that suits their budget/locational requirements. Should they not put in any details that are not 1950s? It's a complicated question, but not so complicated that I haven't already devoted too much time writing about it!

Oh, that's just great. And next you'll tell me that my frilly maid uniform can't have a leather corset incorporated. Geez, am I going to have to wear some kind of scratchy pantaloons and sensible shoes? That totally ruins it for me.

And what's Poland Water?

You have all ruined "flogging" for me.

Poland Spring. Google it.

Christine quoth: "Some people may LOVE Victorian (imagine!), but can only acquire a modern ranch style home that suits their budget/locational requirements. Should they not put in any details that are not 1950s?"

My personal take is that it depends on whether the building had characteristic architectural features in the first place.

The house I grew up in was a 1970s suburban tract box -- totally bland, built cheap by the gazillions to house the population boom. These houses are vastly improved by going to town with new features that aren't "period." Bring on the crown molding! But they were built with the intent that they'd be customized by the owners over time.

My parents' earlier house -- the faux Eichler -- would be ruined by having its beam ceilings and big windows not respected, but it could easily handle a sleek kitchen rehab (though not a "Tuscan" ornate one).

One thing we learned while house-hunting in Albany was that "historic preservation" often makes a small brownstone much nicer than it historically was. The other is that it's difficult to strip back layers of renovation, and you don't always want to. Some of the extensive 1919 improvements to our 1864 house were real improvements and not readily reversible.

So let's say Jonathan really did want to go super modern. Or go super green. Here's a fab example, other than the stairs, it incorporates a lot of feature I find attractive and environmentally sound, on AT-Chicago:
http://tinyurl.com/et4on

So you glance at those couple pictures and read the short blurb and say "Yeah, that's really hot".

Ahhhh, but wait, there's more. Do not judge solely by the couple groovy mod pictures. Go to the actual site.
http://www.zokazola.com/prj_adams_zeroenergy.html

Exerpt from the above link:
"This house will be built on a double lot of 40' x 77'. The lot is situated 3 miles west of the Chicago Loop. It sits in between other vacant lots in an area with turn-of-the-century brick and stone buildings"

Let's say that lot wasn't empty previously. Let's say there were a couple ramshackle buildings, still retaining some exterior charm, but needed extensive renovation.

Do you renovate? Or tear down and build your dream home?

Yeah, I do love the idea of zero energy, passive solar, gardening on rooftops. But it totally doesn't fit the neighborhood.

Would you be upset if that thing went up next to your carefully restored brownstone? Would it affect the property values and in what way? Would it start a trend of tearing down the old and putting up the new?

Look at the cool older buildings across the street! It's like MAIN STREET USA. And then some kind of Jetson's home. People probably get to work with solar charged jet packs from that house.

Do NEIGHBORHOODS have to match? Look at planned communities, the cutesy ones like Seaside, Florida. I love all those pastel cottages and picket fences.

Look at the planned community done by none other than Prince Charles. All period looking homes, with walking preferred, cars hidden from view, curving roads to discourage speedy auto travel. Homes and rentals are seemlessly integrated, giving the individuals of the community a rich and rewarding experience.

There's no rule about what the folks use on the INSIDES of their homes. In this hideous apartment complex, I've seen all kinds of decor. But we all look the same from the outside. No, I take that back, we have balconies and patios. Those vary.

We might have jobs where we have to wear suits. But nobody can tell us what we can't wear under our suits. Kind of "Don't ask, don't tell" and don't jingle when you walk. Unless it's pocket change. There are enough interesting undergarments to make anyone walk around with that "I've got a secret" look on their face, no matter what suit they have on outside.

Presentable in public, so to speak.

So, design addicts, what do you say? Can everyone wear suits except for a couple people who appear in silver space suits or all the old buildings stay except the new space-age zero-energy home that pops in? Is it too weird to have something totally different on the OUTSIDE as well as the inside? Like the Chicago home?

Would you feel like you HAD to construct a building similar to the rest of the neighborhood?

What's your conformity factor?

Andree, I like the idea of having new next to old architecture (exterior perspective here), but that is KIND of keeping with the scale of the surroundings. I guess there's good and there's bad (couldn't quite tell from what I saw on the website if I like or don't). There's an example here in DC near the U St corridor of a "luxury" condo building that went up. It is soooooo hideous and monstrous. It stuck out like a sore thumb amongst the neighboring early 1900s row houses. And of course, the sale prices were ludicrous, but that's a diff. discussion. On the other hand, there was another newly-built building--not sure if it's single family or condo--but very modern and I LOVE it. Its scale and general design are very complimentary to the row houses around it.

I think my opinion of historic preservation is that historic preservation is good--but it's not a "everything needs to be preserved and never changed" concept. The trick is deciding which things are best to maintain and which can go for new innovative designs. Designating historic districts and historic buildings do that--protect the best of the best. But, working in urban revitalization, I'd be worried about whether anything would happen if absolutely everything had to be maintained. What I do in my work, though,is try to promote how a place's historic character can be an asset to the town or city (many of which have limited economic means when compared to huge metro areas). my pet peeve, though, is when everything becomes kind of pastiche--when there are all these faux "period" elements put on new homes that are trying to blend in too much.

Andree--
You seem to be lumping "urban planning" and building code issues with an evil movement toward sameness and conformity.

That's not what planned communities are about (evil sameness as a forced alternative to glorious individuality).

One of the best examples of code preserving the uniqueness of an area is George Merrick's vision of Coral Gables (Miami) and how strict and stringent building codes have preserved that vision (for the most part, recent influx of high-rieses notwithstanding). It's also preserved the property values of those living there.

If the planned communities the likes of Seaside and Rosemary Beach are so "conformist", why exactly do the world's best architects clamor to see how they can stick to code and still yield personal benchmarks of individual design?

And yes, the are no "rules" about the inside "matching" the outside, but that's not really what I was talking about. It is about letting a building (and/or a neighborhood or a region or the vernacular architectre of the place) "tell you" what it should be.

And it's about how quick we are to cast off the dilapidated, the worn, the dated for something, as Madonna puts it "shiny and new" without taking a moment to think what the loss of history sometimes means to a culture, or to the fabric of a community.

don't kid yourself. there is an evil movement. it is bowel-like in nature. it's name is patrick (the other one)

i fully agree that, well, if the original fixtures are no longer there, then they're no longer there.

but the whole brownstone RESTORATION movement in design isn't simply about not gutting original features, it's about restoring the buildings to their true architectural glory. most of the new york brownstones were, as of 20-30 years ago, completely abandoned and derelict, or at best had been split up into seperate apartments and had their fixtures gutted in favor of 'All Mod Cons' type amenities.

i don't think that brownstone restoration always has to be period-focused, but it should work with the bones of the structure. and while i don't want to ridicule or pass judgement on jonathan's specific reno, i think putting in a lot of High Minimalist Le Corbusier style elements, or the latest trendy bullshit into a 19th century space is very rarely going to be respectful of the nature of that space.

and i think taking the nature of one's space to heart during a renovation is one of the basic tenets of AT, isn't it?

P2, I know we're always on different wavelengths. What I meant by the examples of the planned communities is that everything fits NOW. Something happens that one of the houses just tumbles to the ground, can the person then rebuild however/whatever they want? (providing there aren't some kinds of rules on what can go up).

I'd totally stand up for my right to build whatever I wanted, if it was my space. Then again, if the reason I moved to that area was to be surrounded by that "look", I'd be pissed if someone else put up some different style. "I wanna do what I wanna do, but you can't do it too" kind of thing. Have to look at it from all perspectives.

Next, there are undoubtably "levels" of authenticity when it comes to interiors. When folks talk about "restoring to former glory" does that mean absolutely everything inside has to be of exact appearance and quality as was original?

Does the furniture have to match the period of the home? Do the appliances have to match the period of the home? Most people might say that's going too far, who'd want an ice-box when they could have the Monsta-Fridge-O-Matic that have five temperature zones, four doors, chilled filtered water, and the ice maker that can make cubes, spheres and several other geometric shapes.

What is then said is that CERTAIN modern updates are "okay" but others aren't. I like electricity over gas lighting fixtures and kerosene lanterns. I like modern plumbing and running water on demand.

I love home plans, and, well, check out the Sears home plans here (this is the first and earliest group Sears offered, more elsewhere on that site):
http://www.searsarchives.com/homes/1908-1914.htm

Click on any one to see the ad and floor plan. By the way, those bastards won't honor that ad price at this time, and I don't see an expiration date on them.

Home plan 115. No interior bathroom.

Plan 161, OPTIONS included Plumbing, Hot water, forced air or steam heat. If your Sears home didn't come with any of that, and you were restoring, do you sit around without water or heat?

So, I love historically accurate...except I really like indoor plumbing more. Yes, Christine, I love it when towns and cities can have historical districts. It IS great to see "how it once was".

But I have problems with the staying true to the neighborhood too. Letting the various styles dictate what MUST be in the area, or on or in one's own home. I'm pretty much arguing with myself here. Trying to work it out in my mind.

So you're transferred to a new job. You lived in a modern home. Your new home is a spacious home, as big as the last, with a similar floorplan. except it's a log home. All the walls, save the bathroom, are logs. Beautiful warm wood on the floor. Do ya have to chuck all your stuff and buy other furniture? Next, you get transferred to Florida, in a deco style house, chock full of curves and pastels. Uh oh, now what are ya gonna do with the brown leather and woven rugs and moose decor?

What if you wanted to modify those homes to suit your tastes. Putting up sheetrock over the logs. Having the curves cut out of some architectural feature in the deco place.

Would anyone argue about renovating at will a home that has no "character"? A generic tract home? Would people be upset? Would there be groups to preserve the tract homes? Why not?

Is it because they aren't old enough? Don't have the decorator stamp of approval or the name of a famous designer? Millions of people live in them. They're like Passenger Pigeons. Once everywhere, considered a plague, shot at will, and now they're extinct.

And there IS a big problem that no one has mentioned. All these cities and important buildings existed before we were born. Okay? There are NOT open lots available for building in general. And there is housing demand in all those areas, the big cities, so there isn't always an option on what home STYLE you can live in...if you MUST live in a certain area to get to work, or MUST live in a certain size home.

Maybe disabled, and I'd have to live within a two-three block radius from a grocery store. I couldn't walk much farther. No stairs, please. So then I'd have to find a space on a ground floor, and one that is close to a grocery store. That I could afford. That was vacant. And the next thing I'd be told is that I can't renovate my space my way because it's not in character? Yikes.

For that matter, the folks here have particular tastes in styles. Other folks have other tastes. We've seen what happens when someone with other tastes comes here and shows their place. They're mocked. And with two that come to mind, I redid their places on my old Painter program to be more appealing to the masses HERE on AT. Without going nuts with overpriced designed stuff. Suddenly the same space is "okay".

Nobody is going to read all of this. That's okay. I have too many questions.

Wondering where in NYC I can find a Georgian door, like the great doors you might find in the UK. The door at Per Se is a great example. Any help?

very few people move into brownstones because they must. they're extremely sought after and hard to get your hands on unless you have A LOT of money. in which case you would have your pick of architectural styles and neighborhoods, as well as moving to the suburbs where it's easier to build new.

also, there are varying opinions as to whether one must 'stick with the period' or not when restoring a brownstone.

i'm of the opinion that as long as it works in the space, it's ok. that said, 'works in the space' has very little to do with personal taste to me and everything to do with WHAT WORKS IN THE SPACE. my grandparents live in a converted warehouse loft. their decor taste before was very traditional. however, in order to make their space look good they've had to find compromises between what they'd like and what the space needs. they didn't have to move into a loft, they chose to. and they've adapted their style to suit the home they chose.

other people, however, are sticklers for true period renovation. the brownstone that 'got away' from me, for instance, was truly period. the room i looked at was 100% Edwardian, painted pink with all antique turn of the century furniture and reproduction tiffany lamps. and i was told when i looked at the place that while i could obviously bring in personal knicknacks and my own bedding and such, i wouldn't be allowed to change the decor in any way if i took the space. my reaction was, well, i'm choosing to move into this place knowing the owner is going for the period. i respected her intent and the constraints of the space, even if i ultimately chose not to move there.

and if i were buying something in a landmark neighborhood or planned community (or even something less formal like a 19th century camelback house in New Orleans or a craftsman bungalow in L.A.) that notion would be even clearer to me. why buy a house in Colonial Williamsburg if you hate colonial decor?

Jason-
Try http://www.demolitiondepot.com/vo/demo/

Opoponax, a couple of points:

1. I respect your views on this. As mentioned, I struggled with the decision of whether to do this renovation Victorian-style. Ultimately, the place was crap inside so there was nothing to restore. It was a shit townhouse that the owner had rented out to beardo-the-wierdo turtleneck-wearing artist types for 15 years (and then people like me moved to the slope. let's hear it for gentrification!!) So - nothing was TOSSED per se. There were crap, dingy rooms with crap, dingy moldings. Moreoever, in my shopping for townhouses, I found more than one tasteful, modernist take on the townhouse that ultimately felt...more right for me. I wanted to go with something like that. I find the Victorian style heavy and sort of funeral parlour-like. Now, whether I am succeeding in achieving something tasteful and modern is another matter, and it is why I often turn to this site for help.

2. Feel free to criticize and even ridicule my pictures - really. I am looking for criticism, abuse and specific suggestions. I assure you, a lifetime of physical, emotional and sexual abuse at the hands of my parents, siblings, the neighborhood priest, the YMCA community center director and various farm animals have collectively made me very tough. If you have any suggestions of what you would change I would love to hear it. Really!

3. As much we might disagree, I am SURE we can agree about P2, right?

Ok Jonathan's Brownstone, show me on this architectural model where he renovated you. Was it a good renovation, or a bad renovation?

it's this that really gets me:

"...rented out to beardo-the-wierdo turtleneck-wearing artist types for 15 years (and then people like me moved to the slope. let's hear it for gentrification!!)"

FUCK YOU. i am a beardo-the-weirdo (please learn to spell insults if you plan on hurling them) turtleneck wearing artist type. well, um, i'm a girl and thankfully don't have a beard, but yeah, the rest is true. and i HATE idiotic gentrifiers like you. it's people like you who are ruining Brooklyn and forcing me and my fellow beardo-the-weirdos ever further from the useful infrastructure of this city. in a couple years i'll probably be commuting to manhattan from philly every morning, all thanks to yuppie douchebags like you and your desire to completely disney-fy the universe one historic Brooklyn neighborhood at a time. god, go back to jersey where you belong...

oh, and by the way, just because the original fixtures are no longer there (or they are 'dingy') doesn't mean that you have to completely assify the building, you know. oh, those stupid artists had the NERVE to live here without bothering to scour e-bay for the original 1870's doorknobs that some douchebag landlord ripped out circa 1965. so why should i be bothered to create a home that is in any way respectful of the structural details of the building i chose? St. Gaudens on the outside, Le Corbusier on the inside, baby!

and again, i never said that everybody who lives in a brownstone has to go full on victorian (and even if i said that, what the fuck do i know? i'm just a turtleneck wearing artist type). i'm no great fan of it, either. i, too, have seen brownstones renovated to an eclectic or tastefully modern style. if you check out the san francisco and chicago AT sites you will see plenty of old homes renovated to more modern tastes. but, well, tastefully modern your place ain't.

i didn't want to say this before, but your stupid staircase looks like a giant letter Z. so i hope that was what you were going for. what, is your last name Zizmor?

oh, and even though we haven't gotten along in the past and he'll probably chide me for this post if he sees it, i have a great deal of respect for P2 and think his opinions are almost invariably spot on.

ok, back to polite Opoponax mode now, really.

And another one falls hard for Jonathan.

Score:

Jonathan - At least 20

Troll feeders - Still a big goose-egg

Has anyone here ever bought furniture from eurway.com? Wondering about their leather sofas. Trying to be budget-conscious without resorting to buying crap. Any input on Eurway's quality would be most appreciated. Thanks!

Diane: Eurway designs are fine, the leather they use includes a lot of resin so the feel is kind of plastic-ish so careful what you order.

Opoponax: I grew up in Connecticut, not New Jersey. There's a big difference old chap. And I use my real name here, not the name of a robot invader from another galaxy, which is what "Opoponax" sounds like. You are wrong about me being an "idiotic gentrifier". I am a very clever gentrifier with all sorts of clever accomplishments. My arrival does not mean that I am RUINING Brooklyn or want it Disney-fied...it just means I love the neighborhood you developed...and now that I have arrived, I would appreciate it if you and your filthy unemployed artsy friends GOT THE HELL OUT!! ha ha ha. Okay, really, don't you understand? my "beardo the weirdo" comment was tongue in cheek and fully cognizant of the unfortunate dialectic of real estate development. I know people like me are the ones who swoop in on nice neighborhoods after artsy-fartsies like you develop them and, in so doing, push such artsy fartsies out. I recognize it must be maddening to you and your unwashed friends, but really, yuppies aren't eveil they want to live in nice neighborhoods too. The fact that you went apoplectic over the comment demonstrates that you not only lack a sense of humor, but you ALSO...made my day. CONTROL that anger - funnel it into your next finger painting!

Max: if I had called someone a "douchebag", as the robot invader called me, you would have sent me a mean email and banned me for two weeks! But because I am against all this banning business, in the name of sweet jesus, I forgive the robot invader opoponax and you, max.

kisses jak

You are right about one thing, though...the staircase thing DOES look like a big letter Z. That had never ocurred to me. It looks like Zorro swung in on a vine and made a big Z on the staircase.

"Max" is not "maxwell" you idiot

not me is correct. maxwell is in fact not me. Wait. I mean neither I nor maxwell is not me. Though I am me, but not that other me. Who's on first?

Though we are both members of the International Cabal of People Named Max (We get a discount at the Waffle House! And when you join you get to have one of your enemies killed.), we are separate entities. Who just happen to share an awesome name.

Yes, on boards like these, it becomes extremely important to distinguish who is who. maxwell, who usually posts his name in all lower case or has sometimes in email simply used the letter "m", is our host.

Max is definitely NOT maxwell. Max has the handy winch for the wife (which wench will we winch when?) and maxwell has the pregnant wife who runs The Kitchen.

Max entered the cluttered closet contest. I don't think maxwell actually has a closet.

Did either of you, Jonathan or Opoponax, read the story here awhile back on the Neighborhood Garden? The residents of a poorer area took over the park, taking it back from hooligans and hoodlums, making it a beautiful place. And the next thing they know, they are being priced out of their neighborhood. The neighborhood they made beautiful and attractive to others.

Here's the funny part about such changes. There's an ebb and flow to neighborhoods. I can only afford so much, so I can only live certain places. But I DO work to improve my neighborhood. And it DOES look better.

Once it looks better, it attracts another kind of group. And I would be priced out of the area. I don't resent it so much though. Because once this area looks better, I start looking around for other areas in which I can make a difference.

The funny thing is that those people moving in aren't always aware at how much work it takes to make a neighborhood. And it may well deteriorate over time, and they'll move elsewhere and take over another area that's been made pretty or inviting by another group.

In a way, it's much more inviting to me to move into an uninviting area to make it better. It makes it better for me, of course, so you could say my motivation was selfish. But it makes it better for everyone else too. And I can SEE the changes in people and their attitudes when things look better.

Hey, Opoponax, I found more opoponax references online. After you told me what it meant, I looked it up (I didn't think to look it up, because I frankly didn't think it was a "word" or "thing" that COULD be looked up). Opoponax is an additive in cigarettes. It was a "nonsense" word in a Stephen King novel. There are many kinds of fragrances that have opoponax, one I think was "Royal Opoponax" that turned out to be a men's fragrance, but it sounded so good. Woodsy. I like woodsy. I'd be spraying Cedar Fresh on me if wasn't primarily for closets. A little cedar, a little sandlewood, and some opoponax. Ahhh.

make it stop! make it stop!

i hate idiotic yuppies who say something really offensive, and then when someone actually has the NERVE to speak to how fucked up they are, retort with 'you have no sense of humor.'

considering that your entire lifestyle underscores that comment, does that mean your whole existence is simply tongue in cheek? 10 years from now when i'm commuting to the city from Poughkeepsie or Allentown, maybe i'll finally start laughing.

because that's the bottom line here. it's not simply people like me putting work into a neighborhood, though the fact that you use the former tenants lack of work as justification for your own atrocities is telling. it's the constant displacement into places that are further away and less convenient. i've been priced out of 3 neighborhoods in the 6 years i've lived here. each move has been further from my work, convenient mass transit, the cultural institutions and entertainment options that make new york worth it, etc. at this point the only reason i'm still here is that i'm hooked, and the only other place in the country i can pursue my career is los angeles.

does it make me want to stop working toward a better community? no. but it has given me second thoughts about my creative career path. maybe i shoud just give up and take that long-neglected offer from the big media corporation that would stick me on a phone at a desk rather than on set where i belong. then in a couple years i can come back, renovate my own brownstone with no thought to the aesthetic needs of such a space, pop out a couple kids, lament the safety of the neighborhood and make racist comments about the diversity of the local community. you know, thoroughly ruin and disparage everything i originally sought to be a part of.

Hmmmm. Well. If you do end up commuting from Poughkeepsie, even you do not start laughing, i assure you that i shall.

And no, you don't have a sense of humor. At all. perhaps because you are a girl?

C-PADD, there's nothing worse than a focused, short-worded person.

Highly intelligent people may make unusual connections between seemingly unrelated subjects, concepts, and ideas.

http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/cogsys/intell.html

Although, you may not understand that.

opoponax, now I get you.
Not sure though about all that stuff you said about turning out ok after being brought up by wolves or whatever it was.

Sorry, I was just channeling Jonathan there ;)

Seriously though, I won't get into the whole gentrification thing because that's what curbed is for aint it? However, I will say that you should take p2's advice (I think he said this) to check out mags such as the UK Elle decor to see how you can do modern in a victorian without losing any of the bones or detail. Jonathan, you should too.

Jamie Pup: I shall. UK Elle Decor - that is a magazine? Website? When I pass through Grand Central tonight, I will skip my usual lurking at the "Chunky Asses" section and migrate over to design.

It's a mag and I'm pretty sure you will find it in GC. Funny thing is that I'm pretty sure that the design/decor section is next to the chunky arse section.

The UK mags tend not to do full blown, content laden sites so you nearly always have to buy the magazine at the air shipped rates.

Andree--
re: "there's nothing worse than a focused, short-worded person."

Um, sez who?

(and, ironically, one of your shortest posts EVER.)

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