apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

Morning! Has anybody bought(or shopped for) anything from Modern 50 (Reston, VA) in the DC area? They have a lot of mcm stuff on Craigslist all the time. Any comments on them? (looking forward to that AT for the DC area!)

CHAIR HELP REQUIRED

Would anyone like to lend some help to the selection of a CHAIR for my office?

Here is the computer center:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31415264@N00/137512262/in/set-72057594106915555/

Here are the chair choices. Do they all suck or does anyone have a view?
http://www.homedecorators.com/P/Sandra_Swivel_Desk_Chair/440/
http://www.homedecorators.com/P/Nova_Adjustable-Height_Swivel_Desk_Chair_with_Ivory_Leather/430/
http://www.homedecorators.com/P/Craftsman_Leather_Swivel_Desk_Chair_with_Black_Leather_Upholstery/560/
http://www.homedecorators.com/P/Hyde_Park_Swivel_Desk_Arm_Chair_with_Leather_Upholstery/210/

Note that the computer center is on the same floor as the open kitchen/living room and we ALREADY HAVE these “bar stool chairs” at the kitchen bar (ignore strange looking child, observe the chair under him):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31415264@N00/202946699/

The "Sandra" is nice and looks like your bar stools, but the "Hyde Park" matches the desk better.

How many more jewelry/stool/chair/remodeling/furniture purchase decisions are left?

Perhaps enough to start your very own blog?

P2, because we haven't done dick in several months - by virtue of exhaustion and depletion of cash, frankly - there are many decisions still to be made. Therefore, i suggest you put aside the petty distractions of your little life and focus on what really matters here, namely, me.

Jonathan: To me, the best-looking office chairs remain the ones from the Eames aluminum group (available at DWR and elsewhere). Not only are they eye-candy they are also good ass-candy.

If you insist on using ones from your choices, I'd go with the Sandra *if* the computer nook and barstools are simultaneously visible on your open floor. If not, the Nova would seem to accessorize best with your iPod.

And, why is your patient, much maligned wife pointing sharp implements at your child?

DD great to hear from you!! The pregnant chunkster was cutting his hair. In an effort to feminize my son so that I am the solo Alpha Male in the home, i refused to let anyone cut his hair for 14 months and it had become shoulder length. with the heat wave and all it was bordering on cruel, so I gave the go ahead for a proper haircut.

I hear you on DWR, but that sh*t is $800 and up for a chair. That's outrageous, isn't it? Not that I am not amenable to some good ass candy!

And, before Jonathan sucks all the air out of this open thread, let me turn your attention to phones: What's the best looking, slimmest *corded* phone you know? (Jacob Jensen?) Most
corded phones are fat and ugly, especially the line that AT&T amusingly calls slimline. It's as if the phone companies are saying "if you can't go wireless you don't deserve to live (well)."

How about answering machines plus extra cordless phone combos (apart from the sexy but very over-priced BeoCom ones)? Preferably 5.8 GHz, so they don't mess up my ability to post to AT from my wireless notebook.

Actually, I think Jonathan *should* start his own blog/renovation memoir. While his sense of humor usually doesn't do it for me here, I can see it drawing an audience, especially among those who are tired of HGTV's sunny burbling about every choice being "perfect" and who will find the barely suppressed rage more appropriate to the rehab experience.

It doesn't surprise me that my humor doesn't do it for you. i have never met anyone from san francisco who understood humor. you all are, to the one, sanctimonious, frumpy types with an often uneducated lefty rage about one thing or another. you probably don't understand when i say that people like you are, fundamentally, largely responsible for the decline of western civilization. no i'm not kidding.

Ah... testing to see whether Maxwell means it about canning people for ad hominem attacks, I see. Glad I could oblige.

Wende: I think AT should embrace all God's children, including Jonathan. But, let's not get into all that, again.

Jonathan: For the next time you get banned, send your email address to designdabbler at hotmail dot com.

And, yes, the Eames stuff is expensive. You can sometimes get it in good condition on ebay, or Craig's List, or at MCM-type stores, at much lower prices.

If you're not against a bit of work, you can some times rig up something. I made my daughter a terrific (I say modestly) work center thusly:

1) Herman Miller office table (with built in wire-management) which I spray painted iMac-white using some probably toxic paint (Krylon Fusion). Her iMac sits on it at one end and a red Valentine Sottsass typewriter on the other.

2) White Bertoia side chair that I got at auction for $37.50, spray painted red.

3) Red Joe Colombo "Boby" storage unit on the side.

4) Red stapler, 3 red folders for reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic, red-and-white lamp.

I'm now sitting back waiting for the inevitable big surge in grades.

But, enough about this. What about phones?

And, Wende, I'm disappointed in you that you engage in Jonathan-baiting. Not because it gives pain to Jonathan, but because it will give pleasure to P2.

But, please, let's focus on phones.

Baiting? DD, I was perfectly serious and meant it as a compliment. I think Jonathan would have no trouble drawing an enthusiastic audience. Period. No hidden agenda.

corded phones better looking than the jacon jensen? Not sure there are any.

As for cordless answer phones I got this one because the Beocom 1 that I also bought does not have an answering part and the BeoTalk 1200 did not do it for me.

http://www.vtechphones.com/vtechui/store/dsp_product.cfm?itemID=b02333e4-1056-4332-ba4d-773b18c36a2a

The image is taking forever to load so hopefully it's not broken. Otherwise google image the model number.

The phone is ok. Answering part is fiddly with buttons that require more pressure to register than other phones while retaining an odd spongy feel despite needing that pressure. It is not easy to ascertain if you have messages or not because the base sits too flat to be able to see the screen easily and there is nothing you can do to tilt it because the phone falls out of its cradle if you do.

Works well enough otherwise and we needed a phone with a speaker and answering part so this is ok. It is hidden in an office alcove behind sliding doors but I swear that is not the reason for the difficulty in seeing if you have messages or not.

Under some strange circumstances, we inherited an antique buffet table that we must keep for two years, and work into our more modern apartment. It is similar to the one I've posted here, but cleaner, and a lighter finish: http://www.flickr.com/photos/99504791@N00/?saved=1

I'd like to put it in a wide but short hallway (sadly we're away for the summer and no pics of the actual apartment) and maybe have shelving above it. Any suggestions on what kind of shelving might work (if any) or what else I can do with this piece?

See the second entry...Very sexy sleek analog corded phone...
http://www.betterlivingthroughdesign.com/type/archives/tech/index.html

Phone/answering combos are pretty ugly in general. My solution is to hide the bases/handsets in bookcases.

That's a gorgeous buffet and just cries out for Hollywood Regency cool. I'm seeing a mirror above it -- something very modern and a bit edgy, but with some curves to echo the curves of the buffet. If you want shelves, can they be lucite and not expected to hold anything super-heavy?

In general, when you go Hollywood with your Regency, it can work with Art Deco and with space-age mod but tends to fight "organic" modernism.

Hey jen, that's a jacob jensen design and is what DD and I were talking about. 'strue though that nothing beats it.

Having said that, I wish this had an answering machine built in
http://www.jacob-jensen.com/products.lasso?-database=jj_productlang.fp5&-layout=Web&prodID=t-6&languagecode=eng&-search

I for one would read Jonathan's blog; he is funny, smart and, even though I'm sure he trusts his own taste, he has the confidence to ask other people's opinions on things instead of only ever offering advice and doesn't get hurt when someone doesn't like something that he likes. That's cool.

Anyway, my two cents on the chair: I like all the chairs, but I think you should go with something that is very square. WHile the Sandra chair is awesome and I, myself, would buy it today, I think it will not work as well with your counter chairs as the Hyde Park in black. I think you should attempt to keep the same line as the other chairs, not necessarily the same material. That's my opinion.

Colleen...thank you, that is an interesting take - lines not material. Let me chew on that overnight.

As P2 is probably wondering how he can be helpful, let's move on to bedside lights: I have narrowed it down to the following four. Note that we have a BoConcept walnut veneer platform bed. My former gay neighbor, to whom I have given a final veto on all purchases, thinks the Mercury is the only decent choice:

http://www.ylighting.com/minigloballt.html
http://www.ylighting.com/kvc-p058-077.html
http://www.ylighting.com/kvc-p004-01-077.html
http://www.2modern.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=692

Thanks, j-pup and jen. Yes, the phone Jen points to is indeed the Jacob Jensen T-1 that jp and I had in mind. It's true that nothing beats it (although the T-6 that jp lusts for comes close in the cordless category). It's hard to believe that there's almost nothing out there between this classic and AT&T's fat slimline.

There's this from B&O:

http://www.bang-olufsen.com/web2/systems/product.asp?section=systems&sub=tp&prodid=560

Are there *any* other slimmish corded phones? I'm probably going to go with the JJ T-1 (as our emergency home phone), but would like to know all the possibilities first.

For cordless/answering-machines systems, there's this that's not too bad:

http://tinyurl.com/edre9

in addition to the V-Tech model that jp mentioned.

Jonathan: Have you given up the fight to read in bed? A couple of your choices, at a dim setting, might be conducive to making more babies, but none of these is a reading lamp.

When I was conducting my own search, Tat had pointed me to some quite unconscionably beautiful lamps from Spain. Go for those. They'll match your Eames desk chair in price.

We cheaped out and bought the Umbra Lume lamp:

http://www.shopfosters.com/store/product.php?productid=901

When fully lit, base and all, it stands out dramatically against the deep "manly pink" of our bedroom walls. For reading we are killing our eyes with a pair of white Lytegems.

Ah, Concerned Citizen = Design Dabbler!

It all makes perfect sense now.

Wsa it my alliteration addiction that gave it away?

lisa - what about some umbra shelves?
http://www.umbra.com/ustore/product.do?product=330606&colour=127
or stain this one to match
http://www.umbra.com/ustore/product.do?product=330610&colour=390

Um, it was your sign-off "Design Dabbler (briefly known as Concerned Citizen)" that "gave it away."

But it makes perfect sense, anyhow.

Lisa: I'd go with Wende's mirror suggestion over shelves.

phones! i have been craving a pretty phone with an answering machine, the examples above are nice but not peonied-out enough for my decor. anyone have any ideas? i almost bought a huge white art deco phone with rotary dial but i had no place to put it...

dd, manly pink! that is my favorite phrase from AT, and suitable on so many occasions.

Ah, P2, there's no fooling you.

design dabbler, can we see pics of your daughter's work station? it sounds awesome.

i'm moving into a tiny studio (about 250sf, but probably smaller) and am wondering if i should accept donations of furniture from friends/family and if they don't work get rid of them later on-- or if i should obsessively measure everything and make sure it will all be perfect (which is probably won't, so i'll wind up buying all new stuff)? just curious. i moved with absolutely nothing so furnishing the apartment is daunting...

Hey, DD/CC--

You never did answer jamie pup's question about who no longer posted here whose opinion you valued so much more than the rest of us. Since you're feeling full disclosure-ish today, apparently, and giddily basking in the joy that is Jonathan, how 'bout it?

P2, if you did not (ostensibly) wield what my people call a schvantz, you would be the B*TCHIEST woman I have ever known. Maybe even worse than Opoponax!!

Excluding Jonathan I reckon the suspects are Henrietta, Tat (who I have emailed but she seems to have disappeared - prolly too busy or travelling rather than protesting the dumbing down of the site), possibly Andree.

That's all I can come up with.

Two of your guesess are good, jp.

But, let's focus on design, shall we? If you keep getting sidetracked like this, you'll reach a point where I'll have posted more design-related stuff than you. That will make me a bigger user-owner than you, and will invest all my views (on any topic) with greater authority than yours. We can't let that happen, can we?

I never subscribed to that POV. That was simply the logical conclusion of your argument. But you knew that already.

ali: I'll try and post pictures after I get my wife's permission. I don't have the sensitive relationship with my wife that, say, Jonathan has with his, so I need to consider her feelings.

DD//CC is a GUY?!?!
Now I'm confused again.

And you are soooooo full of it, talking about how we should all stay "design focused" in these threads after the recent tirades under the Concerned Citizen pseudonym.

How do you tell your signifigant other that they have bad taste, and they should not be allowed to make design choices?

My girlfriend has a bad case of the "I don't like anything unless it looks like it should be in a sub-division model home someplace in the midwest" kind of design taste.

She chooses things she thinks are great, but are god awful, Plain, boring, if not tacky. She thinks a hunter green-faux-leather sectional sofa she had in her home is great. I was an art student, so my taste is much more out there.

How do I discuss this oh-so-important subject with her... and how can I help her??

Steve CC: Have you tried telling her nicely "You have bad taste, and you should not be allowed to make design choices"? With any luck she'll dump you and your problem will go away.

Steve CC--
I think it's a matter of exposure. Show her things you like (and maybe start on your most conservative end)and explain to her why you like them. Get lots of shelter mags and look at them together. When she points to something you think is horrid, find something to like about, then list what you don't... but don't make it sound like it's *her* taste in question... make it all about the piece. Nobody likes to think (or be told) they have bad taste.

But I'm positive you can find middle ground.

Is there any sizeable age difference between the two of you?

In the meantime, perhaps she is posting "My boyfriend has godawful taste.. how do I tell him?" on another blog! ;)

Steve CC: taste is subjective, period. I am sure that not everyone would think your taste is great or even "out there" I'm not challenging your taste, just saying not everyone agrees on what is in good taste, what makes good sense design wise or even what is tacky or midwestern tract house style. There are plenty of people out there who feel they have no taste and are more than willing to say so, ask for help and criticize themselves; clearly, your girlfriend is not one of those people. I wonder, Steve, that if a certain level of refined taste is so important to you that you feel the "need" to address this with her post-haste in order to straighten her out, I wonder if you might be with the wrong person? I think this might be a symptom of a larger relationship problem between the two of you. I say this in all seriousness, maybe a more sophisticated person would strike your fancy?

Well, I don't think there is a deeper relationship problem here. Everything else is perfect between us, and I honestly couldnt be happier. I've just been doing a lot of furnishing lately for a new apartment, and we've discovered our tastes to be completely different. Not necissarily a bad thing at all... I've enjoyed our little argurments over if I should purchase so and so a piece, and her taste is much more homier than mine, so hopefully some of that can rub off on me. I guess I should appreciate her taste a little more instead of being stuck on pushing my taste on her.

Thanks!

The dirty little secret, of course, is that taste is really not all that subjective at all. I have long suspected that there is an Actual Truth to good things. For example, my dearest friend from college - a fat, white bastard who eats tater tots, burgers and beer every day - has lousy taste in food. I do not. This is not subjective. This is truth.

Steve, how about this for a whirl: "sugar tits, you are great in the sack but when we go furniture shopping, stay in the F*CKING car!"

omigod, i've finally figured out how our friend jonathan was able to afford that park slope brownstone!

he's secretly mel gibson!

(for those not following the gossip, 'sugar tits' is exactly the term gibson used to refer to the female partner of the cop who arrested him last week)

Jonathan's alter ego is apparently Mel Gibson. So many secrets coming out today...

Opoponax, I swear your post did not show up when I posted (although you seem to have posted minutes earlier)! But great minds...

My home office is always a huge mess. My sweetie has multiple computers and a huge bin full of cables and bits and I have shelves full of poorly organized art supplies. And it's supposed to be a guest room too. Since I work from home, I spend a LOT of time in this room and I'd really like it to be more orderly. One idea I have is to fill the alcove that currently has a small chest of drawers with built-in shelves so more of the storage can be tucked a bit more out of sight. Maybe a different room layout would work better though.
Here's what it looks like now:
http://dmgware.dyndns.org/~apm/images/office.jpg

Here's the floorplan:
http://dmgware.dyndns.org/~apm/images/floorplan.jpg

and regarding steve's girlfriend's taste.

i'm not sure that it's a question of her having "bad" taste, but of the two of you having differening opinions on what makes a piece of furniture "good". it's true that you may be more aesthetically oriented than she is. maybe she loves that green couch because it was the first piece of furniture she ever bought. maybe it's the comfiest couch in the world. maybe she just doesn't care that much about the pedigree of her furniture and just likes it because she likes it. maybe it's virtually identical to her grandmother's couch. all this can be extrapolated to other design choices as well.

maybe you should talk to her about why she likes what she likes, what her influences are, etc. does she think about this stuff? is she design-conscious at all? what is her taste in other stuff like? she could be one of those people whose taste is one thing, but for whatever reason they have a hard time actually indulging that taste. she might have good reasons for her middle-brow taste. or she could be one of those people who really and truly doesn't give a shit, and would be happy to let you take the lead in interior choices.

just talk to her about it honestly, yet politely. try and guage what her real feelings are, without using judgemental terms. maybe she'd be happy to let you take the lead. maybe you could give in on a few beloved pieces. maybe by talking to her about this stuff you'll inspire her to learn more. maybe there's a way to compromise?

P2, JP, etc -- do you guys just not get the phrase "don't feed the trolls" or do you actually secretly enjoy it?

DD - if it's just the emergency phone, try Zellers. I got a super slim, corded phone from them for $11. It's not got great sound quality, but it's very simple (black/silver), sleek, and unobtrusive. great for a backup phone in case of power outage.

Allison--
You would not guess how much restraint I have shown, but thanks for the scold.

Just curious, do you consider Design Dabbler a troll?

re-- No such thing as bad taste
Um, I'm guessing if a house tour featured the type of hunter green couch in question, you'd all be ripping it to figurative shreds. I'm just sayin'.

For reading light, on my side of the bed, I have a Bernice task lamp:
http://www.ylighting.com/lpn-berenicetablesm.html

We have been looking at reading lamps for my wife's side of the bad, and have been considering a Tizio Micro in white:

http://www.roomandboard.com/rnb/prod.do?pfid=959685&grpType=0&crawl=2

We already have a classic black Tizio in the dining room. She needs something for her side of the bed.

For my bedside table, we decided to keep the old liquor cart that we couldn't seem to sell last month, even with AT's help-

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/images/uploads/at44bba5d2ab70e8.22573048.jpg

For my better half, she has our old breakfast-table- a clear acrylic (or plastic, or lucite, or whatever, I don't know...) top, round table top with chrome folding legs.

Since we've had such a slow-go, and are months behind in doing a house tour, should we post some snaps of our kitchen reno to tease, or is everyone like, "We didn't even know, who cares?"

Chris(nyc) I have been meaning to ask you to post pictures so yes, please go ahead and post them.

Allison, my first thought was who do you think the troll is? My second thought was that I have told ppl that here in the past.

I enjoy a lot of J's posts (I have even emailed him before - eat your heart out DD - I kid!), and some of DD's and can see what DD wants in intellectual discussion. However, it gets a bit tedious for me when DD's style dominates especially when I would rather be talking about design only. If it gets tedious enough to be annoying then I will stop responding.

BTW, Allison, kudos to you for your mea culpa before.

I was wondering whether I would catch flak for using the phrase "sugar tits" but, as irony would have it, Opoponax was the one who flagged it from the Gibson debacle.

What a bizarre incident that was. I had actually never heard the phrase "sugar tits" before but I plan on working into conversation whenever possible. The next time me and the chunkster are out to dinner and the server asks us if we want anything to drink, i'm going to say "gin and tonic, sugar tits" and try to keep a straight face. it will be interesting to see who gets angrier, the waitress or the wife

I prefer "sweet cans" myself.

Jonathan, enjoyed your Flickr renovation photos very much. Please tell us who did your master bedroom dressing closet, which I think is fabulous.

chris (nyc)

While I love mixing the styles of bedside tables, and don't mind mixing the styles of table lamps (*somewhat*-- there has tpo be a hight/shape/color/shade relationship, imho), I really don't like mixing task lighting styles. I say duplicate the Bereniece on her side.

dear god
tpo = to
hight = height

Do any of the women totally offended by the recent "woman architect" faux pas care to weigh in on the scintillating "sugar tits"/"sweet cans" debate?

Patrick, YES, to use such phrases in this venue is truly tasteless, considering those who delight in such delivery consider themselves to have such wonderful taste.

Do we weigh in on it or do we not feed trolls? That is the question.

hmmm, i was contemplating the issue of taste. i see jonathan's point; that there are some, let's say, higher goods that "scientifically" just are quite possibly better. however, i do think that taste is largely subjective and personal and it is informed by, as patrick says, exposure. i was wondering if AT readers are familiar with the work of pierre bourdieu? he did this study of class and taste in france and wrote about it a book call "Distinction". it basically explains, through quantitative analysis, what informs taste and judgment of taste and why class matters so much. it is much more complex than that, obviously, but it is really fascinating. i think Jonathan, you would it enjoy it very much if you are not already familiar with bourdieu.

Pixie--
I actually agree, but I just think it sucks that Maxwell and Curtis (too truer gentlemen could not be found) took such heat for an unintentioned offense, and these guys disrespect for sport and "humor"... and nary a peep.

P2, I agree. It has been interesting how that happened. I will continue to try to maintain the course of non-troll-feeding.

p2- the difference is, for me anyway, it matters to me what Maxwell and Curtis write/think, I enoy reading what they write, so I was disappointed when that popped up. I don't care to be others' "sport".

regards,
trillium

Hmmmm... so if you're a good guy, and make an unintentional slip, you get called to the carpet, but if you're a dick you can be a dick all the time, and people just steer clear.

Good to remember.

P2,

I see them as completely different. For many reasons. Probably too many to list in a simple post. For one, the sugar tits was making a reference to something offensive that someone else said. The person posting also knew this. Secondly, the person posting knew it was offensive, and was also saying it tongue-in-cheek. Also, Jonathan is a bit like South Park in that he equally puts down/makes fun of everyone, even himself. Jonathan’s post was also just that - his comment (not the editor’s content of the coolest blog on the internet).

The woman architect phrasing was not meant to be a joke. It was a slip. And this kind of language appears quite often, surprisingly. Because it was not meant to be offensive, because it was posted on the main page by the editor of the blog, and because it was missed in editing, that is exactly why women (or which ever group) have to bring it to the attention of the person who wrote it. Although after reading Wende's post, and knowing Maxwell and Curtis, I too believe that it was probably an editing error, and it was not intended to write "woman architect" in that way. But I am really glad that all of the women on the blog responded to it and that there was a discussion.

p(too)i don't want to be seen as taking a side in this, but i think you need to see a different point of view here. I know that maxwell, et al did not mean to offend, but it is one thing when someone is being provocative (do you take jonathan's misogyny seriously? of course not) but it's something totally different when someone makes a statement that leads you to believe that they don't see a natural correlation between two things, e.g. a "woman doctor" or a "male nurse" or, for argument's sake, say "a gay astronaut" or a "straight hairdresser" none may seem offensive, but they speak to a level of ignorance that offends. they make a statement that says you need to qualify this situation somehow by saying he's a hairdresser, but he's straight, since you think most people will see a hairdresser as a gay man or a doctor as a man or nurse as a woman or, in this case, an architect as a man. Aside from being 1950's era thinking, it is ignorant and they say bigotry is the child of ignorance. i think it's in *NOT knowing that it offends* that I find the most issue. Again, they meant no harm, but still, it exists that it was said.

thomas jefferson said "Bigotry is the disease of ignorance, of morbid minds; enthusiasm of the free and buoyant. Education and free discussion are the antidotes of both." i think it is so apropriate for this discussion in this forum. cheers mate.

lori2 i had not seen your response prior to posting. very well said.

My two cents: With the increased cynicism and aggressive posturing (sometimes disguised as black humor or cutting wit, sometimes not), I find myself less emotionally invested in the NY site and its content. I'm at the point where I try not to click through because I know that I'll get pissed off by comments that are basically attacks under the thin guise of debating the stated topic. I love a good passionate debate, but the content of many of these posts have veered so off-topic (my current post included). Consequently, I'm less inclined to contribute my thoughts or comments. It's too bad. To me, the open exchange of ideas seems significantly more stifled than it did when I first started visiting the site.

And for god's sake, leave Curtis alone. You've all made your points regarding the politics of gender as related to language and discourse. Can we let it go now? It's ludicrous that his character (or Maxwell's) are called into question for a simple linguistic slip. I'm sure we've all let slip an unintentionally inappropriate comment, phrase or word at an inopportune time. And if you can't admit that to yourself, you're either a liar or incredibly deluded. It's disheartening that some of commenters on this particular issue have chosen to take such an unforgiving stance.

PS to anon, anon2 and all the other anonymous posters who choose to criticize... Can you grow some balls, pick a moniker and stick with it? How the hell do you expect anyone to respect your opinion when you choose hide behind anonymity or change your moniker when you want present another "face" to the AT community?

Thanks, anon, but I think you did an even better job!

i think Enrique is P2, i really, truly do. talk about balls.

As a "gay creative director," I wouldn't be offended in the least to have that modifer applied to any *positive* role, especially a "gay astronaut." That's hot. But I digress. ;)

And, um, I do indeed take his misogyny very seriously. It is far too ingrained in his humor to be dismissed as a comic device, South Parkism or otherwise.

Lori 2--
I see your point, but I think he first used the reference more as an adoption of his own than quoting something he thought was an atrocity or injustice to women. Only later did he attribute the source, and true to his persona (adopted for our "amusement" or otherwise), he practically claims the swerving and swearing Mel Gibson as his role model.

As far as "slips", I think that making jokes ad nauseum about cheating on women, women's cleavage, women's weight, names that sound like strippers, etc., even if he includes himself *occasionally* in the insult cavalcade is a far more dangerous (or in the very least equal) way of deadening people to the power words have to hurt, harm or mishape someone's perception about what's acceptable behavior or not.

Sorry for the tirade (that I'm sure some will just see as "p2 vs. j"), but this really irked me today, partially because of the heat that Curtis got really upset him, and no doubt will make him think twice before contributing again.

Thanks, though (and sincerely), for engaing in a civil discussion about it. I really just didn't want it to slide by unnoticed, and totally acknowledge there's more than one way to come down on this topic.

Btw, a much earlier post cited "Asian Architect" and again, nary a peep.

Nope, Enrique and I are two separate, real-name-using people. Check the archives... there are even pictures.

...and we often disagree. And manage to do so without attacking each other's character.

ummm, right.

YES, right.

P2,

Thanks. I don't disagree with much of what you have said. I do think it is a complicated debate and not possible to fully discuss online (and on a design blog).

I guess I will just add that I think Jonathan is a bit of a special kind of a person - in that I don't think trying to "correct" his language will do much good.

I think everyone still loves Maxwell and Curtis and we should all hug and move on ;)

I'm finding it amazing that people feel heroic about "fighting" the bias in a typo, but are okay with open bigotry because it's open.

Once upon a time, when a typically nice, kind, helpful person misspoke, one took it up with him/her privately. And one didn't applaud people who used racist or sexist humor as being "open" or "quirky." One assumed that the typically kind person meant well, and that the typically rude person didn't.

Maybe I'm just getting old and cynical when I suspect that people "fought bias" in poor Curtis -- who's the last person who'd have any -- because he won't say anything nasty in return, while you give Jonathan a pass because you're afraid of what he'll say to you.

No, anon, I'm not wende, too.