apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

I missed the Oprah TV spot -- will it be posted on YouTube???

I also missed the uglyness on the Oprah thread (though probably read some of the first kernels) -- I think it's time AT required some kind of registration to make comments (I know you guys have talked about this . . .) -- anonymity on the web brings out immaturity, cowardice and total lack of manners. The majority of the AT community is here for intelligent dialogue with a touch of witty repartee -- anything to keep this going woudl be great.

This site was becoming a threatening and scary place.

We're New Yorkers.

Fear's our life.

Mid-C -

why would you call for action on something you havent even read/seen.

you missed the show and all but the first few kernels of the thread. you're amazing.

I'm so glad I missed all the ugliness of whatever they were talking about ... I did, however, see the Oprah show ... I'm amazed at how even more gorgeous Maxwell's place was in person, and it was nice to see the full tour, as I had the layout wrong in my mind from the cure photos. It's just too bad Oprah didn't mention AT at all, especially considering the message of that whole episode was about simplifying your life. Oh well.

If the Oprah thread is not reposted after the site has a chance to respond to it I will stop coming to this site. Suppression of critical speech (especially post hoc) is not my speed. Which is not an endorsement of any of the views (previously) posted on the thread.

How's this for some juicy gossip: Nate Berkus is dating Ricky Martin. True story!

BklynLoft -

i agree. i'm more uneasy about the act of pulling the thread than about what was said in it.

Goodmorning, I'm working on a project for a class that requires me to create a sketch to scale of my bathroom for a modification project.

I know this isn't exactly apartment-related but in the past I have seen many people here create simple computer drawings/layouts of rooms in their apartment. My professor will even accept a hand drawing on graft paper but I want to make it look more professional, can anyone suggest a program I might be able to do this in that is simple and user-friendly? Thanks in advance for your help.

My call to action is simply about steering AT back on track. I know Maxwell well enough to know that he only pulls things off the site if they have gotten really really bad.

I never criticize or attack anyone's motives for speaking on this forum. Can you say the same, Mark?

Mid-C

yes i can.

I didn't read the nastiness on the Oprah thread either, and I admit to being curious about it (and to trying to find it on Google cache--no luck), but I have to disagree with BklynLoft and mark about Maxwell's decision to takeit down. Someone removing offensive comments from a blog is not censorship, it's more like someone removing graffiti from their own house. "Suppression" of speech requires the power to actually suppress it. Anybody who wrote nasty things on the Oprah thread can go re-post their thoughts elsewhere on the Internet; Maxwell doesn't have any obligation to host the comments on AT.

That all said, I don't think requiring registration for comments would be a bad idea.

Wow! I missed AT controversy? I go to bed way too early. :-(

I love AT.

Design Dabbler,
This link was posted on the previous thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

I think that better sums up the tone of what was going on in that thread than simply expressing serious disagreement with anyone. The thread was taken hostage by a very small number of virulent posters who kept saying the same thing over and over (and over...) again. As well as posting completely irrelevant Flickr pictures with the meanest accompanying text.

BTW, I've been meaning to ask you: why did you think that adding "Esq" to your name would make people think that you are not a female?

Jenny,

i can assure you there was nothing "offensive" on the thread. meaning no foul language etc whatsoever. There was, however, a discussion about the fundamental ethics of AT.

I suppose it hi too close to home. the only people that could have been "offended" would have been the AT staff.

I ahve no problem with regulating bad words etc, but to regulate a discussion that involved real issues that affect the AT community is very disturbing.

I think the fact that private flicker pictures were posted was disturbing. Not to mention that real estate information was googled and I believe the address of Maxwell's home in the Hamptons was posted. Things got a little creepy in that thread. Raising issues is one thing. Stalkerish behavior is another.

Lauren,

that's true. but those few individual comments could have been removed while leaving the discussion intact.

Design Dabbler,

While that may be true, Esq. is almost always used today by lawyers.

I agree with mark. I read most of the posts before it was pulled. There wasn't really any fowl language although some tempers obviously flared. It was mostly an ethical discussion that got a little too heated.

Lauren - the Flickr photos were linked from another thread on Apartment Therapy and were public photos on Flickr, not private photos. Anybody can view them just as anybody can view the Flickr photos I tag as public.

Mid-C Frank - I don't think registration is a bad idea. It might increase the sense of community, not a bad thing at all.

christina - I haven't tried it myself but I've Google SketchUp is user friendly. There is a free version online.

Design Dabbler, Esq., Just looked at Google Sketchup...that should work perfectly. Thanks so much for the tip.

Design Dabbler, Esq.:

It's true that originally, in England, Esquire meant "a social rank title above that of mere gentlement," but today in the United States it's a (somewhat pretentious) title used by lawyers, who obviously can be male or female. If you click on my name there's a link to a little article about this in the Illinois Bar Journal.

What if you called yourself "Mr. Design Dabbler"? That would clear up any gender confusion.

To All,

We felt the Oprah thread got out of hand and made the editorial decision to pull it, temporarily. Please bear with us - we will be posting a response today. Thank you.

Whoa Nelly--there were home addresses and nude photos? I'd say pulling the thread was more than fair.

thanks SK.

The flickr photos were completely irrelevant and posted as a maliciousness attack on Maxwell and Sara Kate. I completely support that they took the thread down. It was very disturbing and not why I frequent this site.

Furthermore, one of main virulent posters then dragged it over to an open thread (while the Oprah thread was still up). I believe that the purpose of the hostage-taking of that thread and then dragging it to another thread was to taunt the AT managers into removing the thread and then crying censorship. It wasn't a discussion, it was people saying the same thing over and over and over again ad nauseum, trying to ram it down people's throats, and if someone raised a reasonable objection to their arguments, maligning and disparaging them as being deluded.

Sorry, this has nothing to do with a free exchange of ideas.

Yes, some people were saying the same thing over and over again and rudely disparaging those that disagreed. But others, even some of those who were feeling negative toward AT, were expressing their opinion calmly, fairly, and without personal attacks. Those people were engaging in a "free exchange of ideas."

It's up to the G-R whether they want to take the thread down--it's their site and their publication (just as a magazine doesn't have to public every Letter to the Editor). But those who didn't see the discussion should know that it wasn't simply a bunch of rabblerausers "hijacking" the thread.

i've just had an epiphany. i'm done with this site.

all the best!

FLOKATI

I am in love with flokati rugs - but i'm afraid it's a lost cause - I have a large dog who sheds and runs in the mud, and a black cat who sheds and occasionally decorates the house with hairballs, as much as I try to prevent this. I also live in a veritable dustbowl of high mountain desert.

Everywhere I've seen says you could possibly vacuum, or you shouldn't vacuum, or variations on this. What I'd like to know is:

1. Does anyone have a flokati rug?
2. Is it impossibly picky to care for?
3. How is it with animals?
4. Should I just give up hope?

THANK YOU!!!


(Please don't tell me to give up hope! I'm envisioning it under my *new* old lane dovetail coffee and end tables!!)

I missed it.

Was any part of the argument relevant to AT, or was it a personal attack against the editors? If it was relevant, i would be very interested to know the gist of what was being said.

I've had a flokati for 5+ years and I love it. However ... prepare to find the flokati fur balls all over your house. It sheds like mad and then travels. However, the awesome thing is, to clean it, you can throw it in a large washing machine (those big ones at the laundromat for quilts and stuff) with Woolite and it will not only come out clean, but even fluffier than before you washed it.

I didn't have such great luck ever vacuuming it, though .. it just clogged up the vacuum. They're also not really good for allergies and they collect a lot of gunk.

I only read the wee beginnings of the ugliness, but that was quite enough for me.

There are ways to communicate "freely" without descending into personal attacks. It can take some time and some consideration to communicate that way, but the vast majority of ATers—with all of our diverse opinions and spiritedness—seem to manage it.

I think the G-Rs are perfectly within their rights to manage and edit AT in whatever way they see fit—it's their house and, for me, their house rocks!

L

Certainly pull it if it started to contain private personal information. As I recall, there was a user recently who kept posting negative comments on threads like 'what the hell makes you think this has style of any kind' and who was ultimately 'barred' if thats the right word. A similar tone appeared in the oprah thread. We're all here for our general interest in the topics, enjoy the discussions and helping others...as well as the voyeur peek into different homes :-)
Constructive criticism and even disagreement is a good thing. A world where we are all the same would be a very boring place...Should people who's only interest seems to lie in provoking nasty discussions have a place here? Registration sounds like a good idea...

rachel - I have a flokati. It is a little bit tricky but I love the look so I put up with it.
I foolishly tried vacuuming it once and ended up having to quickly turn off the vacuum, flip it over and pull the long flokati hairs from the bottom. I wised up after that and now use the hose attachment (much better!) The best way to clean it is to take it outside (I have a balcony) throw it over the rail and beat the heck out of it. It does tend to hold onto a lot of crumbs/dirt/dust even with vacuuming. Of course, my dog likes to bring dog kibble over and crunch them right on top of the rug sinking the kibble debris down to the depths!
My suggestion - get an inexpensive flokati first and see if you like it. Mine was from IKEA and I want to say around $70. After my experience with it, I don't think I will buy a more expensive one. Like I said, I love the look but it is difficult to keep clean, especially with a dog. If you buy an inexpensive one you can try it out before committing to a higher quality one.

Rachel,

I posted a similar question awhile back and got a barrage of "they look great but shed worse than goats" replies, and I don't even have any pets to further the mess. Someone recommended the shaggy-looking Cable rug from West Elm as an alternative (they had one themselves and liked it - so far). Everything I've ever heard about flokatis has made me reconsider something like seagrass instead.

Good luck!

Hmm, I am very glad I was too busy this week to read the Oprah thread! On a complete unrelated and self-promoting note, I just wanted to let everyone know about an apartment sale I am holding this week: http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/fur/283261174.html

I am basically cleaning out an apartment that had been used as an office by a relative who has fallen ill. I was considering just getting one of the haulaway services I've seen mentioned on the site to throw most of the stuff out, but can't stand the idea of things that could be useful to someone ending up in a dumpster.

Most of the things are not particularly stylish, but many are practical. Plus, a couch and bed are free to the first taker, and pretty much anything left by 1:30PM Sunday will be free by then too. So come on by if you can!

Christina, Perhaps Google SketchUp might be helpful. sketchup.google.com Free and fairly simple to use.

I had good luck with it when making renovation suggestions to my parents. Best of luck with the assignment.

ridge - just read your post re:flokati rugs. I never thought to try washing it in the washer with Woolite! You are right about the shedding though, I've had mine over a year and still find white furballs traveling from the room the rug is in into other rooms.

Christina,

Does your school provide access to any programs in the Computer Labs or Design Studio? I am also an interior design student & have had lots of luck (and 4.0 GPA!!) by doing hand-drafted floor plans then scanning into Photoshop & adding details, textures, finishes, etc. This way, I can do my floorplan work wherever (mostly on the kitchen table) and then finalize at school.

Design Dabbler, Regardless of Gender--

If you would feel comfortable saying something to someone's face, I suppose you should feel comfortable posting it here. Is everything you posted yesterday something you'd be comfortable saying with *actual* eye contact, using your actual name?

Is it possible to disagree? Yes. Of course. But to basically call someone (even peripherally) a liar, a thief, someone taking unfair advantage of the system for their own personal gain, and misrepresenting themselves to do it... do you not see that in spite of a lack of obscenity, the whole thing felt like (and was) an attack? And it IS their party, whether you like it, agree with it or not.

Sure, there's no need to gush with praise when they post something about their own professional successes if you don't feel compelled. But there are civil ways to raise an issue without having it get personal.

If you have to have that pointed out, jesuschrist you need a primer in social etiquette. And PLEASE don't dredge up the pathetic arguments you once used as "Concerned Citizen" about free speech.

And you bait them, you bait them, drag the argument all over the site (as you are STILl doing) then say "See?" when they finally want a little respite.

If you are so fundamentally opposed to them, their mission, the tone of most posts here, then find another site that suits your miserable disposition a little better.

Hah, the white furballs may make my dog happy, I can stop blaming her for the small roaming dogs that happen overnight.

She is one of those dogs who likes to crunch and drool on the carpet - we call it her office.

Ok, might get that ikea rug, see how I feel about it. Thanks everyone!!!

Oh, and another question: Does anyone have a particular favorite purple that's pretty neutral for a bedroom? I'm thinking of repainting the bedroom, I'd like pink, my husband won't even consider it. He likes purples though....there are a couple in the vintage masters collection by RL, but again, it's screen color, I have no idea what it would look like in person.

I actually think true flokatis shed less than the shags or synthetics that are around today.

that's life in the big leagues, kids. you appear on oprah, this is what you get. ah, the costs of celebrity.

There is something rather amusing about the mix of threads of gender identification, flokati, CAD software, and censorship. I wound up with visions of someone censoring a pretentious sketch of a furball.

DD: using esquire in this country when you're not a lawyer is even more pretentious than using esquire when you are a lawyer. But since you seem to like British pretentions, perhaps you'll enjoy an old observation of Orwell's that you only support freedom of the press when you support the right of a person to say something you don't like.

The hijacking of other threads was to me more annoying than the original post which had a meanspirited tone. I originally missed the whole thing and only found out about it when it spilled over into another thread. At that point I just skimmed enough to figure out what was going on. If an actually address were posted, that would be an invasion of privacy, and could be fairly deleted, by the way.

May I humbly make a suggestionh here? Since we're a relatively sophisticated group here and are all well aware that we're all to a greater or lesser extent ethically compromised (if not challenged), shall we return to the subject at hand: good design, decorative arts, and witty posts?

JonathanB--

Add "questionable double entendre" to that list and I'm in!

I'm with you JonathanB - more flokati and CAD software, less gender identification and censorship.

Add p(too)'s frequent use of questionable double entendre to that list and I'm in too :)

Ptoo wrote:

"If you would feel comfortable saying something to someone's face, I suppose you should feel comfortable posting it here. Is everything you posted yesterday something you'd be comfortable saying with *actual* eye contact, using your actual name?"

'xactly.

Turning that thread into a housing injustice discussion was kind of like going to your nephew's graduation party and telling him that not only is it unfair that he went to college when there are poor kids who can't afford it, he's ugly, too.

absolutely. It was a grievous error on my part to overlook not only the questionable double entendre but also the unquestionable double entendre.

and speaking of "your part"...!

Valerie--

*while* eating the host's graduation buffet!

MGR and SKGR - I'd offer that you don't need to respond to *anything* that was posted on the Oprah thread.

Unless you provide a detailed statement of your personal and business assets and liabilities and a detailed timeline that reflects how many nights you slept in your home, certain people would not be satisfied.

CHANGING the topic entirely.

Wende in SanFran/Phoenix, are you still out there? A while back you offered me the pros of buying vs. renting, and I wanted to share the fact that I've started to look for a condo to buy. It will definitely be a small-space apartment.

I've been wondering about Wende myself, but more important, congratulations.

Congratulations, Leslie in Adams Morgan! My fella and I recently bought a house in Mt. Pleasant, and we found "Home Buying for Dummies" really helpful both about the pros and cons of buying and about how the process works.

i would say anything that was posted yesterday to their faces. why not?

Since this Oprah thread is so crabby and tiresome, I propose we scrap it altogether and talk about how I'm going to clear the drain in my bathroom sink without using a gallon of noxious Drano. Any ideas for a more eco-friendly approach? I've tried using those cans of pressurized air but to no avail, and I'm not very handy with the pipes.

Thanks, JonathanB and Jenny.

I'm hoping to stay in the Adams Morgan, Dupont, Kalorama area. I can't do Mount Pleasant since I don't have a car, and don't really want to go over to Columbia Heights, although that's probably the best option $$$ wise.

I bought a similar book last weekend and have been learning about points and walk throughs, comprables and appraisals! It's a lot to take in.

also, looking forward to the $5000 tax deduction I'll get as a 1st time home owner in DC.

Leslie

Persephone, it may not be eco-friendly, but a jug of bleach always works for me. It zaps it all in one go.

Congrats Leslie in AM! After looking in those areas, we ended up buying a condo in the West End in 2004. If you're looking for a realtor, we absolutely *loved* ours and have happily passed him onto a few friends as well. He's particularly knowledgeable about the areas you're looking in, plus the Logan Circle area, and he's great with first-time buyers. If you're interested, I'm happy email you his info.

Persephone -- My first suggestion would be to try using a plunger -- more control that those cans of air. Beyond that, the alternative to chemicals is using a snake -- not sure what a good one costs, but probably best left to a professional plumber so as to avoid breaking pipes.

(and thanks, P(too)!)

Persephone,

After a particularly stubborn bathroom drain clog, I called to have it snaked out ($99 by a roto-rooter type chain) and I can say that I am clog and chemical free for 2+ years. If you do call a pro, STAY AWAY, it is the ugliest, smelliest thing I have ever seen -- but it works.

D in DC: Yes! Please send your realtor information. My hotmail account is lesliebosch@hotmail.com.

Thanks so much.

Persephone, I (proudly, since I'm not handy with household DIY) took apart the pipes under my kitchen sink about a year or so ago when it was clogged--and put them back together again, the real miracle. I used several sources for guidance on what to do: the internet, my Home Despot fix it book (Home Improvement 1-2-3 Book), hardware store personnel, plus support from friends who had done it. That little U shape pipe can get clogged. However, in my case, it wasn't the problem at all, it was the disposal.

On the other hand, I've found that boiling water will go a fair distance in unclogging drains.

Just thought I'd pitch in on the Esquire front, in case any one is interested. In the UK, it is used as a formal way of addressing an adult man in correspondence - e.g. you would address a letter to 'Algergnon Farqhuar-Sidebottom, Esq." instead of "Mr Algergnon Farqhuar-Sidebottom". It's really quite common over here. I think technically the man has to be a "man of property", so renters would just have to plain "Mr", but I'm not sure.

Persephone, I have curly dark hair that clogs up both our tub and bathroom sink even when a hair-catcher/strainer is employed. Used to use draino/liquid plumber weekly; however, for the last 2 years we have used a snake that we bought from Home Depot for under $20. We use the snake every 2 to 3 weeks to remove clogs & since then have been draino free. At first we had difficulty getting the snake in the narrow tub pipes but with practice, it gets easier. Now it takes about 5 minutes to clear both tub & sink.

I hate to bring the subject back to the table but....

I posted yesterday and would say, in person and possibly over a glass of sweet tea, what I said yesterday. I think things got worse after I stopped paying attention and I do hate that personal information and photos were given out.

However, there are trolls on The Internet, but you can't just dismiss everyone with a differing opinion just because you don't know their last name.

By the way, P(TOO), your pretentiousness slays me darling.

Congrats again, Leslie. I went to school in D.C., and in fact, Adams Morgan was my regular Thursday night hangout area. I miss the city so much, and I'm hoping to return one day.

Have you looked in the U St./Shaw area? It's not too far from AM - in fact, I used to walk to Adams Morgan from U - and there are a lot of condos going up in that area, if I'm not mistaken.

Persephone: I have a water snake that works very well. It's a thin tube with an attachment at one end that fits over the faucet and a multi spray type head at the other. You attach it to the faucet, snake it into the pipe, then turn on the water. The water pressure, which can be considerable coming out of thin holes, clears the drain.

melissa & shelby, thanks for the suggetions and great ideas, i think i will end up using a combination of both and really appreciate the help.

Jen and Rachel,

A friend of mine used a dog brush (very wide-spaced metal "bristles") on a fluffy rug and it did help. Fortunately the rug wasn't very big as the job was very labor intensive (obviously). Mostly he did the old take-it-out-and-shake/beat-it and that worked as well as anything else did.

I do know that washing these rugs in the tub with Woolite is very popular (scrubbing it with a brush helps to lift out the pet drool/spots), but using an industrial strength washer sounds like a far easier method.

and mark--

Your assessment of what happened on that thread is TOTALLY revisionist history (and VERY self forgiving, btw)...

And mid-c frank is a true gentleman who has been around on this site long enough to make some (well)educated guesses about any crap he's actually had the pleasure of MISSING.

Melissa, I wish I could claim it as my own brilliant idea, but the store where I bought the rug actually recommended it ;-)

If you have a rug larger than 8x10, you can also hand wash it in the tub.

P(too), thank you for speaking up in defense of Maxwell & SKGR. I found the Oprah thread in question increasingly disturbing although it appears I missed the worst of it. While I found the notion that Apartment Therapy is a cult very amusing, the baseless attacks were dismaying and upsetting. Part of the problem of course is being increasingly in the public eye (or a portion of it) when appearing on national television or in the NY Times. My sympathies to Maxwell & SKGR.

Rachel -- I've had the exact same issues with my flokati. The original directions I got with it from the company I ordered it from suggested combing it with a wide toothed comb -- really! Has anyone tried this, and did it work?

Jen

Persephone:

OK - here's a neat little tool (that i've never used) but gets great reviews: http://www.flexisnake.com/

it's a snake with velcro(!) at the end to grab hairs and it costs $2.95.

Leslie--sent!

Jenny the Disser--

One chick's pretentiousness is another man's civility, DARLING.

(not exactly sure how you got pretention out of what I've posted here today, but anyhwhooo...)

Leslie, I sent you our (awesome) realtor's information too, hope that's OK.

Thanks, Jenny and D in DC!

There is something strangely exhilarating about speed reading angry posts interspersed with rug reviews and drain snaking adventures. What an interesting sensation.

To my beloved drain snakers and pipe shakers: thank you so much for your advice. I'm off to buy tools.

Persephone: Check out this old post. Might help.

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/ny/cleaning/lehmans-life-alternatives-to-draino-how-about-hair-loss-001462

Having just moved from a studio (with a spouse and toddler) to a larger apt., I am sorry (for once in my adult life) that I missed the Oprah show. I'm sure you've done well with your space.

On to open thread topic: After the move, I chipped a vintage vase at the top to where it looks like a small "v". Rather than toss it (because I love it) is it possible to have someone sand it down? Is this just wishful thinking?

lisa in austin: Henrietta, one of the great former regulars of this site, once talked about how much she appreciated those posters who grimly soldier on, talking about FLOR tiles and whatnot, while angry debates swirled about them.

I don't know how much exhilaration your system can stand, but over in the Wild, Wild Thread, started expressly by Maxwell to discuss the fallout from Oprah, Jackie has launched a determined attempt to move the discussion to coin patterned flooring.

DD: That's "Jackie(the original one)" Please have your facts straight.

FLOKATI: I found (when I had a flokati) that ordinary dish washing liquid was best; regardless of what manufacturers say, a real flokati will yellow after repeated woolite use.

Also: If possible, if you can dry the rug in the sun, or at least not via commercial heat, you can rake the rug while wet and it comes out really nicely.

FAVORITE VASE: If the vase is glass, you can certainly have someone grind down the lip. It it is ceramic, and if you are crafty, you can simply make a little piece with sculpy clay, paint it and glue it in place. No one will notice.

If that chipped vase has a wide mouth, you can also repurpose it... I have a similar chipped receptacle which has some sentimental value, and I keep my rolled-up fabric napkins in it.

Or maybe you can just roll with the wabi-sabi qualities of your vase and embrace the imperfection.

Or turn the chipped side against the wall.

Persephone -

if you haven't already, we have the best tool ever for unclogging drains - if they're clogged with hair (which mine always are.) I can't find it anywhere online, but it's pretty easy to find in hardware stores. It's essentially a long skinny flexible metal (wire coiled) tube with a little claw on the end. You stick it down the drain, wait till it hits something, open the claw by pushing on the end, close the claw, and then bring up piles of half rotten disgusting hair. So effective. Also really great for retrieving things like rings that have been dropped down drains. Good luck!

Christina, don't dismiss the charm of a hand-drawn floor plan. As long as you use a straight edge and have proper line weight, you can add your own artistic touches and make it stand out. If I were reviewing a stack of student drawings, I'd be bored to death by a bunch of CAD drawings. Personally, I'd probably start with a plan collage of materials that I liked and go from there. Perhaps your final product could be done on the computer, but it's so much more interesting to show your process.

The photoshop idea is a great one. If Photoshop isn't your thing, do your draft on graph paper, then trace it onto vellum. Scotch tape typed text where necessary onto the vellum plan, then make a photocopy of it. If some of your work is larger, just keep records of scale and you can shrink copies down to all the same size in the end. Trust me, it will be much more fun than CAD world.

Anyway, it's sounding fun to me - I envy you :)


Becky

Persephone, if I were looking you in the eye, I would fearlessly suggest -- nay, TELL you -- to get a *hand-crank* snake for about $10 at your local hardware heaven. The expensive hire-a-guy (esquire or not) snakes usually go right out to the street, which you probably do not need.

I would then tell you to get a hair trap, and flush your drains weekly without fail, using baking soda and vinegar followed by hot water.

And, Lesley, what I would tell you is to check out a product called Crystal Glass Repair or words to that effect.

You also might come over here to the Eastern Market craft fair and ask some of the glass vendors' advice.

As good ol' Charlie Brown would say "Good Grief!" :)

I posted my opinion on my blog as well.

Patrick: I think Jenny the Disser mixed up P2 with JB (me).

Lisa in Austin: know what you mean. I have visions of flokati furballs clogging bathroom sink drains, quite certain that whatever happened that lead to a flokati being rinsing in a sink is something I really don't want to know about.

As for the vase thread, just leave it as it is and enjoy it? For the record I have a vase I love that I never used and repurposed it as a canister for kitchen utentials.

hey Margo

it seems funny that you think reposting about the fiasco on your own blog is "letting it go"

"To my beloved drain snakers and pipe shakers: thank you so much for your advice. I'm off to buy tools." --Persephone

Oh my God. I read this comment with P2's/JB's unquestionably questionable double entendres in mind and scared the cat when I snorted.

Persephone, if you live in a house with original non-copper (?) pipes, our plumber says the best thing to do after clearing the drain is to pour a 2-litre bottle of Coke down it every week. Apparently regular commercial drain cleaners will contribute to pipe corrosion, but the acid in Coke (name brand) will keep things clear without overdoing the chemicals.

Make you want to have a nice cool one, don't it?

Eeeck- Another solution, check out Freecycle.org. You might have to join Yahoo groups, but I have been able to unload decent stuff to those in need/want.

D in DC- could you please forward your realtor info to me too? I am looking for a 'place' here in DC. I'm in N Arlington but would like to make into the city... jeenmarie@hotmail.com

And for those not in favor of Woolite- have you ever tried bluing?
http://www.mrsstewart.com/
We used to wash our Westie (white dog with major skin issues) with it. Not to mention it is great for crystal AND it is non-toxic and biodegradable. The crystal gardens are neat too.

Have a great weekend. Cheers- jm

Mlle Kate--

When someone earnestly posts "drain snakers and pipe snakers" with NO irony whatsoever, I just couldn't do it... but it did launch me out into the NYC/West Village night seeking "plumbing assistance."

But it was *you* who made my night! :)

Someone, somewhere, talked about the issue of class, and it's got me thinking about how our responses here might be mediated by our own situations or upbringings.

I've enjoyed reading the threads. I have to admit that I feel some of this personally. As someone who is really well-educated, who is barely hanging on to the lower-middle class b/c of life circumstances -- and that includes making decisions to pursue certain lower-paying professions without the benefit of a rich father -- who enjoys design, who lives small, I feel disappointed in general by the design community. It simply isn't oriented toward people like me. A $1000 crib? Yeah, whatever.

And then, hope. You find some sites and blogs that make you think "OK, we're broke, we're stressed and busy, but we can live better." They make you feel like it's within your grasp: the clean, modern kitchen; the perfect couch; a better life for you, your kids. There's a lot of hope here.

And then, reality. Income aside, the G-Rs live in a different world. There's luxury, and security, and hip beach parties. I'm not saying they haven't earned it or don't deserve it. But it's not my reality. It makes what is being offered here feel a bit more unattainable for us normal folk without the connections.

In a world where so many things are becoming unattainable in my class -- affordable health care & day care, decent retirement savings, good public schools -- I wonder if some of the anger here is about the bigger things & our lack of control over them.

I mean, the one thing I can maybe fix is my home environment (given 10 years and $50,000+). Because I kinda related to the G-Rs, I've felt drawn to their philosophy. But it turns out, they don't live a life remotely like mine. It doesn't make the design advice less useful, exactly, but it does change how I receive it.

I don't happen to feel this way, but I can see how people might feel betrayed (on top of already feeling betrayed by their schools, communities, etc.) & feel angry & perhaps direct it here.

This is way too long, I'm in an insomniac haze, and I'm not writing well. I've just wondering: on a larger level, are people angry b/c yet another ideal has been marred by reality?

It's probably a good decision to make the site less personal. Then again, the G-Rs run certain risks, including alienating those who come here precisely b/c they want the G-R lifestyle. They like the kool-aid. It's a tough situation.

Anyway, I like the site for what it is -- it meets some of my needs, and sometimes, it annoys me. It's not a panacea for my situation (oh, how I wish it were). Yet, it remains one of the few places on the internet that I check regularly, and I'm thankful for it and the community of people who make it happen.

Sooooooooo sick of the idea that if you *don't* HATE the lifestyle of our hosts (and not even sure what that means... they attended a BEACH PARTY?!??! The HORROR!!") then you are "drinking the KoolAid."

Dear GOD. There is middle ground, and MANY shades of gray among the black and whites...

Sarah:AT has been great in pointing toward affordable alternatives. For me, refusing to envy other people their posessions has worked well. Not that I do not drool over some items (a flower branch chandelier comes to mind)but I try to think of an alternative that copies the look without the high dollar ticket.
P2- I hate to confess this because it makes me feel dim witted: the "double entendre" was a light bulb. Scary brain you have!

P2

That's because you haven't crossed Fourth Avenue and come to the East Village/Losaida/Lower East Side. We specialize in helping with drainage problems and other overspill issues.

maybe a/t can start yet another site for affordable design (like, for the $500-sofa crowd, which is a pretty big crowd, actually). i imagine it would devolve into a mod crafting site, but that wouldn't be so bad, either....

or even just a regular "get the look for less" feature, like fashion magazines have. you know, this is what the room looks like in dwr (which is way out of a lot of people's reach, actually) and then how to approximate it with furniture from target and ikea. or something like that.

i truly don't begrudge anyone their good fortune, i just want to know what i can do despite my lack of it. :)

Hi Becky,

I just saw your response, thank you for the suggestions and encouragement, I really like the process you described and hadn't thought of that before.

Thanks to everyone for your help and suggestions on how to approach this project.

Sarah, I'm one of the people who brought up class and I think you do an elegant job of speaking to that point. I know we all want this thread to die, but I've been thinking about what actually happened on the Oprah show. I watched expecting to see a big (or small) splash about Apartment Therapy, and we all braced ourselves for the Oprah viewer invasion on this site. As I watched the show, I felt a little silly for all my anticipation: the AT people were the last segment, after a guy who lives in the world's skinniest house. I think the sense of betrayal involves the fact that AT was not mentioned, therefore we were not represented in anyway, and the G-Rs, to any of the millions of uninitiated, were presented as any random people who live in a tiny apartment. Just like the little cottage guy (was he the owner of the company?!) was made to seem like Thoreau's great great grandson. Oprah's show basically co-opted the "live small" idea without referencing any sources. The average viewer has no idea how and why the G-R's were picked to be on the show---this is what happens when mega media dips its toe into communities and movements.

On another note, the Apartment Therapy book is less about "small is good" and more about making your home a healthy home. I was struck by the intro when Maxwell describes going to the homes of students and realizing that the more successful students had well-defined workspaces, and building his observations from these encounters. I had no idea and no expectation that the G-R's lived in a tiny apartment until this last week/Oprah thing and was surprised to learn that they did. The reality is if they did not happen to live in a 250sq foot apartment, they would not have been on Oprah, despite having launched AT. Oprah was looking for cool, ___tiny___ spaces---AT was a way for the show to find one, which happened to be occupied by its founders. Yet there is nothing in there philosophy that says they are required to live small (or big).

Jackie (t-o-o-)
The vase is glass. A lovely vintage with a deep blue base (to camouflage the stems) with the 3/4 of the vase being a rich green. I will start my search for someone to sand it down.

Valerie-
The vase does have a wide mouth. I have been keeping fresh flowers in it to hide the chip so far. It's a bit on the jagged side of chipped, so I fear cutting myself when cleaning it - or worse, my toddler somehow climbing her way towards it (even though it's way up high.....).

Jean-
Thanks for the advice on the Eastern Market. I Googled, but only came up with one in the D.C area. Is this the one you mentioned, or is there something like this in NY?

Jonathan B-
That may be my option if I can't find someone to sand it down. However, it looks like I might be in luck!

I'm fairly new to AT, and really don't care where the G-R's live, or if they have a weekend getaway, or if they are making a lot of money. I come here solely for decorating ideas.

If people feel negatively about the G-R's then they should take it up outside of AT, by writing a personal letter to the G-R's, or if they feel that something illegal is being done, take it up with the powers that be who govern, and presumably monitor, the housing regulations.

I'm relatively certain that at one time the G-R's had to meet criteria to rent the apartment. If their situation changed for the better, and they later became successful, that is their good fortune and I wouldn't expect them to leave if they like it there.

How many of you who spoke negatively would have done differently and moved once they attained success, if they really liked the place and were able to stay there at a low rent?

I also think it was unkind of the people who made reference to the G-R's being "unphotogenic" on Oprah. Go look in a mirror, or look at photographs of yourselves and unless you are a Venus or Adonis, have the courtesy to keep that kind of opinion to yourself, as it certainly doesn't befit a decorating website.

From what I see the negative commentaries made on this site are becoming commonplace. Let's keep the criticism constructive and germane to the purpose of the site.

The general population is akin to the human body. Two percent is allocated to the anus. Lately we have been hearing way too much from the two-percenters........

I'd expand that a bit. AT is about two things really: the first, unstated even though it's what fuels this site, is that it's a way or methodology for you to take control and responsibility for your personal environment, large or small, upmarket or downtrodden; and the second, more obvious, is to make your personal environment not just healthy, but also beautiful and functional. By the way, I say personal environment because the methodology would work for your office or cube at work as well.

Lesley: Re: the vase -

I thought Jonathan B's idea was good also. Just turn it around. Enjoy it as in with its tiny imperfection and embrace its beauty; your description of it is wonderful.

If you find someone who does stained glass professionally, they will probably be able to grind it for you. One simply needs an electric grinder and hopefully they know what they're doing. Good luck, and if you find someone who's a pro, you might want to pass along the info.

Lesley, you live in DC, don't you? There is a craft fair every Saturday at Eastern Market. The Market ("DC's Best Crab Cakes" and fabulous, non-greasy fried oysters in season) is located on 7th Street between C Street SE and North Carolina Avenue. The Eastern Market Metro stop is on Pennsylvania Avenue between 7th and 8th Streets, SE.

There is also a flea market on Saturday and Sunday, every week. A lot of my stuff has come from there. I'm in class all day Saturday, but I go on most Sundays.

We're out of class today, working on our projects, but I'll probably cruise through for a bit.

I *know* there have got to be other AT'ers there. Probably Christine, and maybe Pixie.

Hi Jean: I'm the Leslie that lives in DC. Lesley lives in NY.

Eastern Market is great. (They are still trying to come up with a Western Market here in Adams Morgan on 18th Street but it hasn't been very successful).

Leslie

So...that's embarrassing (blush, blush). My comment WAS earnest and without irony, which means that it's probably been too long since I did any drain snaking and pipe shaking (maybe I'll be inspired to turn over a new leaf on that front). Anyway, thanks to all who posted with suggestions about my drain issues.

Sarah, thank you for the thought-provoking post.

Jean,
I used to go to Eastern Market, including the flea market, all the time when I lived on the Hill, but not often now that I'm in the Dupont Circle area. I was over there last Saturday, but there was no flea market, I guess because of the snow, although there was a compact crafts market.

RE: The thought that the G-R had to satisfy certain criteria when they first moved into their apartment. That's not true if it is rent controlled or stabilized, which is one of the aspects of the non-public housing market in NYC that can drive you nuts: luck has so much to do with it. If the apt's rent eventually exceeds $2000 and the occupants make more than $175 for more than one year, the apartment can be de-stabilized and then rented at market rates. Which means that, in one apartment building, there can be market rate apartments aw well as rent controlled apts and rent stabilized apartments. It also means that the occupants of market rate apartments could actually be subsidizing the rent of the occupants of the rent controlled and rent stabilized apts.

Oh, P2, you flatter me so--I don't know whether to blush or swoon!

And Persephone, I hope you don't think I meant to make fun of you...my mind just made the jump and apparently I'm not as inhibited as P2... :)

Pixie, I bet I would know you by site, and I bet we know one another. I've been on the Hill since 1979, working and/or living.

I guess I always thought that having market rate apts. subsidizing the rent of rent controlled and rent stabilized apts was the way it was supposed to work. It's kind of like where I live. I pay taxes to my city through sales taxes (and property taxes if I own). The city gives incentives such as tax breaks to those of a certain income who buy and renovate houses in certain neighborhoods.

"Luck has so much to do with it"

Luck has so much to do with it no matter where you live. I live in an apartment outside of Chicago, and I don't have anyone saying I need to be in a certain income bracket or not and my rent is A LOT cheaper than something comparable that is part of a complex. I COULD pay a lot more for something slightly bigger or maybe it wouldn't even be bigger. I have a private landlady who can pick and choose who she wants to rent to. You could say I'm being unfair to some poor mother or person who needs a two-bedroom that's not too expensive, but it's my choice and I got lucky. There are apartments that are by law only allowed to be rented to low-income tenants, but mine isn't one of them. I don't feel bad about paying below market rate for a gem of an apartment and others having to pay more. It's just life.

Jean--quite possible. I sometimes wonder if someone I see around town has just posted something I've read on this or some other site.

hello

To Design Dabbler, Mark and Sarah-

Thank you for your calm, thoughtful posts, and for treating my concerns with respect. What I find most frustrating is that the greatest attacks and incivility were perpetrated by those in support of the G-R's behavior. Because we dared to question their choices, and the way they represented themselves, we got the mob. And then they turn around and suggest that we are to blame for the turmoil. (And to be blunt, there was no real turmoil. It just got a bit snippy. So what?)

I think the visceral reaction means something. I think the people who visit this site know how much bull is being slung here. And when someone calls them on it, watch out.

Anyway, take care guys. Look for you after the next uncritical Times puff piece.

Pixie -
I think Eastern Market has a flea market on Saturdays and a craft fair on Sundays, although some of the venders do go both days. I went yesterday for meat and veggies and was surprised to find the flea market going on - I assumed it closed during the winter.

Site has taken off--voyerism no longer required, think the founders can and should pull back some and live their own lives. The rants are from people who INFERRED an agenda here that's much broader than anything stated or implied. No, neither superiority nor even virtue are pretended to. Nothing was hidden. I'm an intermittent reader, looking for advice, ideas, inspiration. Folks who are or were here looking for salvation from consumerism or capitalism have misunderstood the point. BY all means stay. But spare us the "gotchas!" for not being what no one's ever pretended to be.

Quick question. I pulled my miniblinds up to light some plants. Now I can't get them to go back down. Which way do you pull the strings to go down?

I read much of the ranting regarding the Oprah show. I happen to like the lady -- all of her mansions, all of her dogs, all of her diamonds, give-aways and lifestyle. If I could, I would adopt her lifestyle in a heartbeat. I happen to live in a city habitually ranked in the top ten of the poorest in the nation. I live in Camden, New Jersey so we're all not from New York. As 'they' say, we have more in common than we realize. For one, we've all bought the book (AT) and we all read this site. One of my mottos in life is --"... the best stuff all the time." If I had Miss O's money, I would surely have it or have Nate design it for me. Which one of you would turn down the Oprah team and Nate at your door step to redo your pad? That's what I thought...We know that Oprah can make or break a career or a business or a book. I think Maxwell took the thread down because he probably passed his book onto to her producers in hope of an entire segment devoted to AT; a show based on AT principles and/or selling more books. He couldn't afford to have one of her producers log into his site and see/read people bashing her. (We will probably be seeing him on the show again.) And that's o.k., I understand it, I respect it. I am reading the book and anxiously await the New Cure beginning in March and showing off my apartment, and the beautiful view of the Benjamin Franklin Bridge from my kitchen window and the Philadelphia skyline at night. Keep in mind people that the only thing that everybody likes is -- water. Why, because in its purest form it's tasteless. Peace out people.

Maxwell already gave his reasons for taking that thread down. Please god let this be the end of it.

I'm having a difficult time looking forward to the "Cure." The first time we did it I was sanguine about the time it was going to take to createe my office because I had so much deep organization to do. And while my paperwork is now organized (no more bags of unsorted paper, no more shelf after shelf of old magazines), half my clothes given to charity, new hardware in my closet, nevertheless the room I started to organize seems to be worse than ever. And I don't know what to do about it. I know that the room is a staging area and that many items have their designated locations already picked out but it is discouraging. sigh.

Dear Ebrown-

A simple solution: get three houses in the Hamptons. You can store a lot of your stuff there while you get your staging area up to snuff. Remember to keep 10% of your space open for light and good vibes. It helps if your three houses are in a "very special place".

"It's probably a good decision to make the site less personal."

I second that - this is not advertised as a personal blog - its about apartment therapy and design and interiors - less about the G-Rs and more of the interior stuff would be beneficial to all and avoid all this "excitement" we've had recently

It seems Lynn's elegant arguments were all for naught.