apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

And here is a link to a story about a man who had this wisteria creep in and pop up through the floor of his garden level apartment:

NY Times: Habitats/14 Gay Street.

Wow.

Please tell me they are NOT selling puppies in this pet store...
I have a rescue bitch from a puppy mill near here (confiscated by the local sherrifs' department), and while I could go into some pretty gorey detail about the conditions she was bred in I won't. Let me just say it's taken about a year to get her back in good mental and physical health.

If you have your heart set on a pure bred....please consider a rescue. If you must buy one....only deal with reputable breeders.

Big can o' worms and nerves here...

Love this tree!!! I have like a dozen pictures of it. I pass it as I head to that really cool indie Scandanavian store Hus.

I'm glad someone said something about puppy mills. Thank you.

^ All I could think of when reading the post was puppy mills. Since this is PlantTherapy, I would have left out any mention of the store and focussed only on the Wisteria for the post. My 2 cents...

Great photo collage btw.

Sorry if it seemed inappropriate in a "plant" post, but as I've gotten to know this little girl it never ceases to amaze me that she could have been treated so poorly...

She's snoring away at my side even as I post this, and has brought me so much joy. I only hope I can help make up for her horrendous beginings...

Oh, and I do love wisteria....Did you know it's considered an invasive species here in the south?

hdtex, my thoughts were right there with yours. I know this particular pet store and it, and all the others like it that i've seen in Manhattan and Brooklyn, absolutely sicken me. Those puppies are left to be under-stimulated and poorly socialized. Go to a shelter or a local reputable breeder, visit http://www.petfinder.com/ and help put these puppy mills out of business!

Just curious, but what makes this store so horrible?

p(too) - Any pet store that still sells puppies (as this one apparently does) needs a supplier. That supplier is usually a puppy mill and, in situations where one is breeding animals for profit alone, living conditions can be quite poor (to say the least).

If you're interested in learning more:
http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/get_the_facts_on_puppy_mills/index.html

And those who breed pure-breds are not in it for profit?

Serious pure-bred breeders are also passionate about standards for the breed, and they show their animals, which means they have to maintain the animals in acceptable conditions. "Puppy mills" are a lot less fussy -- they just want to maximize the number of dogs they sell.

A friend of mine just bought two apple-faced Siamese kittens from a serious breeder. I was horrified to see how many conditions the breeder put on their sale. The cats are not allowed outside, ever (!), they must be neutered so that they can never be bred, and so on.

Why horrified?

House pets ought to be neutered -- it's not like there's a shortage of unwanted mixed-breed kittens. It's also usually a bad idea to let domestic cats roam the outdoors, though I've encountered cats that are so certain of their right to do so that it's hard to stop them (but in every case, these cats were encouraged to live outside as kittens). My parents support a small army of ferals whom they catch and neuter, thanks to neighbors who didn't neuter their pets and keep them indoors.

Now, the Petco Ladies who insisted that our second cat needed a stay-at-home mom were, in my opinion, pushing it a bit. I'm not kidding -- I had to promise that I didn't work outside the home more than four hours a day. (I now do, but we've moved the cat to another state and changed her name.)

I guess because it seemed like such a big-money business racket.
I've always had strays (or gifts from people who didn't want their cats anymore) that I've neutered/spayed, never declawed, and trained to stay close to the house (when I had a house!).
I'm not surprised Petco wanted a stay-at-home mom. The breeder my friends went to required that they get two cats, which only she would choose herself, they had to be the same size, etc. - so that one wouldn't get lonely....

Ours have always been free kittens or shelter adoptions, which is how we ended up encountering the Petco Ladies. The older cat (who was a freebie from a long-ago coworker) turned out to prefer bring a lonely only, so she tries to enforce the rule that she is a pet who hangs out with us, while the hated rival just lives here.

I'm glad people are taking issue with the carelessly mentioned puppy selling boutique. It is really a serious thing.

Uh oh.... I just thought of a possible problem with an AT:Pet. (And I've been in favor of a Pet AT!) A site that highlights design FOR pets, and design that helps to address the many home issues that come up in having pets would be great. But a site that highlighted design AS pets might be asking for heated moral debates!

I have a purebred (I assume) Boston Terrier, and he's a rescue. On petfinder.com, you can search by breed. I wasn't set on a purebred, but knew I wanted something similar to a Boston. Sometimes you can get so lucky, like I was, and the rescue group will let you have a trial period. I've always had rescued pets, and that's all I'll ever have.

That said, there's such a huge difference between puppy mills and reputable breeders, if you're set on a purebred. That's not to say there aren't poor quality breeders out there, too, which means one needs to do their research.

Opened a can of worms, but Patrick, as Wendy said, reputable breeders generally are not in it for money, but usually active in the breed betterment, and or showing.

They will have a litter, and if there's a great specimin, will keep it and sell the others to hand screened candidates.

My particular breed has some pretty staunch guidelines, and the breeders are not unlike people interviewing you for a job. My older dog, from a breeder, came with a huge list of stipulations...Proof of neutering, 5 references, job info, first rights if I am not able to keep the dog, next of kin info....etc.etc.etc. Hardly the sort that would sell to a pet store.

If you really want to know what the conditions my rescue came from, we could take it off line....This isn't the forum, and it's not a pretty picture...But I'm glad the topic was brought up.

Sorry about the lost wisteria thread...

Hello,

I came back from the weekend and was reading - I can understand the comments. My intention was to show the location of the wisteria, which is to the direct right of the shop. I do not know anything about the shop and can't speak to its practices. I think the questions concerning pet shops at large are important, but not something I am familiar with. I can only speak about the wisteria, the bench which eased my sore feet, and the incredibly adorable puppies (it's not their fault they ended up there).

And the link was for reference. I revised my first sentence to clarify my purpose.

hdtex--

Ever been in the staging area of the Westminster Kennel Club? Those breeders try to win awards so they can use their dogs to breed-- and sell the litters for SUBSTANTIAL money. Jeez, the breeders have business cards... and the dogs have PORTFOLIOS. It is a BUSINESS.

Of course I am not defending any *true* puppy mill, nor am I diminishing the obvious love many breeders have for what they do, NOR am I anti-rescue... but there are a *lot* of blanket statements going on here.

Reputable breeders make money by creating healthy dogs that conform to breed standards.

From my experience, most breeders will only have about 1 or 2 litters per year. They will probably keep the best puppy of the litter for 'possible' future breeding/showing. The "imperfect" dogs, that should not be bred for whatever reason (legs too log, eyes too far apart, etc. - reasons nobody else would notice) are sold as pets. Selling say six puppies from a litter at $1,000 per dog is only $6K per litter. For most, showing the dogs and breeding is a hobby. I don't think it could be considered a business, except for the upper elite tier of breeders. The price tags seem high for puppies, but they include hundreds of dollars of vet bills and immunizations and are miniscule compared to the cost of the dog over it's lifetime. I don't even remember what we paid for our dog, I think somewhere in the $400 to $500 range.

The standards stipulated by Sea's friend's breeder may seem odd, but are in the best interest of the cats. Most breeders will take a dog/cat back at any time in the pet's life. That blew me away when we got our dog.

Puppy-mills make money by producing cute puppies. It's not hard to do. Have you ever seen an ugly puppy? I haven't. Pet stores that sell puppies generally get their stock from puppy mills. Many of these puppies grow up to have health problems that are inherent to the breed, but the puppy-mill owner may not even know that his/her dogs are of poor quality. Much of it is just ignorance of genetics. A puppy mill may have a pair of "perfect" purebred dogs as their breeding stock. But, those dogs may both carry a recessive gene for arthritic hips. The puppy mill will never know, though, because the dogs don't start limping until they're 6 years old. A good breeder would know that the recessive trait is (or may be) there and would not breed those dogs.

Bottom line: If you want specific traits, you may want a 'well-bred' dog - get it from a reputable breeder or breed rescue group. If you just want a dog, get it from a shelter - it will likely be house-trained and you can judge it's adult size.

The above is kind of rambling, but I've got to get to work....

Patrick (the other one),

Sure, there is certainly a lot of advertising material on display at conformation shows and breeders want to place pups in appropriate homes. However, if it's a business, it is a business that is when done correctly, is almost guaranteed to lose money.

Not only can conformation competition be pricey, but serious breeders are usually also (or alternatively) involved in other venues, such as performance or working events, which generally require an even higher outlay of funds and time for entries and years of training per dog. Breeding a litter isn't free. Adults are screened for inherited disorders, such as certification against signs of canine hip dysplasia, thyroid panels and most recently genetic screenings. Pups are also screened prior to placement for certain disorders. All in all, between health screenings of dam and pups, stud fee, shipping of the dam to and from the male, high quality diet for dam and pups, health checks and vaccinations for pups, etc., direct litter outlay can be $3000 . And that’s when everything goes as planned. It frequently does not. Of course, none of that includes cost of association fees, years of training and entry fees, hotel rooms, fuel, and flights across the country, etc.

Plus ethical breeders are also frequently involved in rescue. While the national organization will pick up the tab for big ticket items, $50 here and $25 there quickly adds up.

Oddly enough, the price of a pup from an ethical breeder is frequently not much more than from a breeder who hasn’t bothered w/ any of the above and is often far less than for a puppy mill petstore pup whose mother has probably never seen the outside of her cage.

Just some thoughts...

Sorry to chime in on the puppy mill issue, but there is absolutely no comparison to puppy mills vs. breeders. Puppy mills keep breeder dogs caged their entire "breeding life" in horrible conditions; they are feed and given water and nothing else- they receive no attention, love, affection, exercise, etc. Their sole purpose is to produce and they are treated just like any other farmed animal. Once they are no longer able to breed due to age or health complications they are routinely euthanized or on occasion given to a shelter for adoption. Breeders (presumably) interact with their dogs, feed them, groom them, exercise them, treat them as pets, allow them into their homes, etc. That being said, I would encourage anyone looking for a pet to go to their local kill shelter, a rescue organization or petfinder first.

Patrick
(the "other" one)

-Bella was 9 pounds when I got her....she should have been more like 18.

-She was kept in a cage on a concrete pad,exposed to the elements, no shelter.

-Bella had obviously just had a litter, when she was not the sort of specimen that should ever have been breed in the first place.

-She was left to stand and sit in her own filth, resulting in severe skin lesions and rashes that took 3 months or antibiotics to cure.

-She had to be completely shaved because of her skin conditions.

-I bathed here everynight for 4 weeks in antibiotic shampoo to help treat her lesions.

-This little girl would not look me in the eye for the first 3 weeks, and is still timid around strange men.

-She never had a name, never had seen a toy, and was never socialized. She was a number.

-Although only 2 years old, she had to have her teeth scaled due to advanced perio disease.

-All of this was to feed the "pet store" trade. No one who knows anything about dogs would ever consider buying from anyone less than a breeder.

-Despite all of this she has grown into a wonderful,loving, well adjusted companion who never leaves my side. I just got back from the vet who said she couldn't recognize her as the same dog I brought in a year ago...

I don't know what her fututre holds health wise, it's always a gamble with Cavaliers anyway, but her risks were raised exponetially by her early treatment.

So if you want to talk about "blanket statements" how about doing your homework first? Better yet, stick with design issues..

That's pretty rich telling P(2) to stick to design issues, on a thread ostensibly about a wisteria that has turned into 25 posts on dog breeding. It doesn't seem too much to ask that someone, especially someone claiming to be sickened by this particular store's practices, answer Patrick's question: what are the disgusting practices of THIS store?

hdtex: p(too) was likely just playing devil's advocate.

Shawn: while I don't know about the store shown, reputable breeders would not sell their dogs through a pet store, so pet stores are almost forced to use puppy mills.

What Jon_B said

They sell puppies...enough said.

In other words, you can't answer P(2)'s question. Restating, for the upteenth time, an earlier generalization is not the same as answering a specific question. Someone said they know about the practices of this store in particular, he asked what those are, and no one's answered the question directly.

Shawn, you're right, nobody here knows for sure if that pet store's for-sale puppies are from a puppy mill. I guess you also don't believe the hype that smoking cigarettes leads to lung cancer. If it quacks like a duck...

Coincidentally, this was on our evening news last night:
http://www.ksdk.com/video/default.aspx?aid=55350&bw=

I'm certainly no "PETA freak," but these breeders really p*$$ me off. This is where the vast majority of pet store dogs are born. Don't buy a dog from a pet store!!!!

Check out what the Humane Society has to say:
http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/get_the_facts_on_puppy_mills/

From the HS's "How to Buy a Puppy" brochure: "[Reputable breeders] don't ever sell through pet stores or in any other way that does not allow them to meet and interview the prospective family."

Per my post above, a reputable breeder is losing money on breeding due to the inherent costs of breeding healthy, sound pups. In contrast, pet stores selling puppies are in business to make money. A store is legally obligated to sell their "product" to anyone willing to pay the advertised price, regardless of whether that person is knowledgeable about a breed or just wants to accessorize their new sofa. Anything less would run them afoul of discrimination laws. A good breeder can base a sale on a potential home’s knowledge of a breed and willingness to commit to long-term ownership. As has been stated, a reputable breeder is not going to turn over a litter of pups to a store whose employees are not likely to be knowledgeable about the typical temperament, energy, shedding level, etc. of any particular breed and, even if they are, cannot refuse a sale even if the buyer admits they are just getting another dog because they’ve grown tired of the color of their last one and dumped it at the shelter.

Pet store pups come from commercial breeding operations. And while these can range from poorly ventilated, stench ridden hovels to “mom and pop” shops to clinical livestock type operations, none of them are going to spend the time and money necessary to ensure the healthiest, soundest pups because there's no financial incentive to do so.

Shawn....you just don't get it, and I'm not going to argue for the sake of arguing. If you had a genuine interest in the subject, you would eith read the post and suggested links or do your own research....

Peace