apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

They have the worst customer service ever, probably because they had basically no competition until recently. I had bouillabaisse explode all over my last order, and no one even bothered to respond to the two emails I sent about it. (It ruined lots of other food.) I also found that, way too often, they'd be out of something that was listed as in stock on the site, and you wouldn't find out until a hour or two before your order arrived.

I use FD for 85 - 90% of my groceries. I definitely cook more and eat better, especially the first few days when my fridge is bulging. The Associated supermarket near my apartment is kinda gross and the two specialty markets (Jubilee and Zeytuna on John St.) are more expensive than FD. I think FD is getting a bit better with their use of boxes - at the beginning I'd get three oranges rolling around in a big box. I walked into the Whole Foods in Union Square after work the other day and walked right back out because of the frantic crowds and long lines. I'm glad to have the option of not getting jostled while I decide what kind of pears I want.

I refuse to use Fresh Direct -- fortunately, I live on the Upper West Side and have lots of options (and for those of you near Morningside Heights, it has been confirmed that West Side Market will return to 110th St -- they signed a 20 year lease. Life is good!)

My partner used to use them when he lived downtown (financial district), and quite frankly, down there it seemed to make sense -- see remark above about Zeytuna. But the excessive packaging, lack of brand variety, and inability to really control purchase makes me crazy. Once they arrive AFTER our dinner guests had; other times ordering several tuna or beef steaks intending to serve for dinner the cuts of meat (or fish) were all different sizes. Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer to purchase food daily and see it as I buy it!!!

I just don't find FreshDirect convenient for the kind of food shopping I do and especially since you need to be at home to have the delivery. A former neighbor was one of the founders and I feel guilty for not even trying it.

I use Fresh Direct strictly as "Non-perishables Direct." I'm on the 4th floor of a walkup and find the service handy for stocking up on bulky stuff like bottled water, cereal, etc. I prefer to shop for fresh stuff in person.

Fiona, we have had our share of problems with orders (missing box, missing items, extra stuff we did not order etc.) but a phone call always resolved the issue. We never email them with problems. One time there was a rude CSR that hung up on my wife but the next person was fine. They either redeliver missing items the next day or credit our account. We have had instances where a missing box did arrive much later in the evening so we cancelled the redelivery that was promised the next day. Next day a new box with the same contents was still delivered.

As already mentioned, FD makes sense in downtown areas like the financial district, BPC, Tribeca and Soho that are not well served by supermarkets. A doorman building (which we live in) makes the process much better but, with a 2 hour window, we find that scheduling deliveries in the evenings when we are in is not a big pain.

For fresh fruit and veggies we go to the green market on Greenwich st in Tribeca. The FD versions can be good but it is very hit and miss. You really can't rely on them.

Friends of mine have lived in BPC for years and the excitment that rippled thru that community when FD first started was evident in the postings in one of their community forums. Apparently, the Gristedes down was a dirt hole and FD was orders of magnitude better. Since then, that Gristedes has supposedly improved substantially.

Once we bought our first apt we started to cook a lot more with weekly trips up to Fairway, catching a cab back down to Tribeca with about 10 bags. When FD started delivering to our area we jumped ship and never stopped ordering.

I cook too rarely to actually premeditatedly buy something online. Plus, I have no doorman, and don't want to explore whether they'll deliver in the evenings, because I'm often out. For the few things I actually buy at the store. Although I have to admit, that some of those pre-prepared foods they describe on the subway ads WOULD make me tempted. But really, to me, part of the whole point of cooking at home would be to actually save money, and that stuff looks like it would cost kind of a lot.

In prinicple I want to support my wonderful butcher and fish store. And in practical terms, they forgot the things that I really wanted and did not want to deliver them the next day. Also, the credit was not on my credit card but was a "FD credit"! I had to ask for a credit to my card. Poor service...

I use them for most everything because I don't live in a neighborhood that has great food shopping options. I find them to always be on time and the fact that I can schedule the delivery according to my timeframe is a big plus. Most of the food is surprisingly good, though they tend to pack much larger quantities than I would select myself in the market. Their website is extremely user friendly and I have found every delivery guy to be very very nice. I had a minor problem on two occasions and both times, found their customer service to be excellent. They immediately refunded the problem items. While I would much prefer to select my own food, since I don't have terrific options, I think Fresh Direct does what they do really well. I do tend to buy more than I would though if I were shopping in the market, and therefore spend more money, but let's face it, it's the convenience and surprisingly good quality that I'm paying for.

jamie pup makes an interesting point about grocery stores, etc. So, that kind of means that FD probably does serve as intermediate step for neighborhoods out of areas that don't have such great supermarkets just yet. It's easier to convince THEM to go drive a few more blocks to a new neighborhood than it is to wait until a supermarket chain opens up or expands.

Meanwhile, when Nora talks about schlepping the heavy stuff up to her walk-up, it makes me wish that all seniors could have computers, because then they'd be able to eat better. Now, that's a strange little sentence, isn't it?

Let me just add, lest I sound like I am downplaying the sulry CSRs (Barbara's gushing - no offense - post made me rethink how I came across), that there are some extrenely rude ones and they are generally not that friendly.

The delivery people (the one making obscene and threatening phone calls to women notwithstanding www.qgazette.com/news/2004/1014/Feature_Stories/018.html) have been great and friendly.

BTW, anyone tried maxdelivery.com yet? I read that one of the founders of kozmo started this and that kozmo was a very profitable business in NYC and one other city but that expansion to other areas killed them.

surly - not sultry

I use FD for everything! The quality of the fish is amazing and the range of organic products is good. Living in Bay Ridge(Brooklyn) the supermarkets suck, are overpriced, the fruit and veggies they sell are ready for the garbage. FD has allowed me to shop/cook like I live in Manahattan. The few times i had a problem with an order, a simple email was answered in 24 hours with a credit, no questions asked. I will never set foot in my local supermarket again
Ciao

I have very mixed feelings about FD. On the one hand, they don't come to my neighborhood so as a result I am cranky. I hate going to the grocery store. There is nothing I enjoy less than going to the supermarket. If they came to my neck of the woods I would be thrilled.
On the other hand, I have a car and about once a month or so I will drive out to the burbs (close in, only 10 min, not out to the country) and stock up on non-perishables, as well as take advantage of the inexpensive and great meat, produce, etc. that you can get in suburbia for a fraction of the cost of Manhattan. So for that week or so I live in the lap of luxury and the other 3 weeks/mo I live like other New Yorkers with a bare cupboard.

me -
"...New Yorkers with a bare cupboard." That part is kind of how I am. As Rhoda Morgenstern said to Mary Richards, "Mar, the only thing in my refrigerator is a light bulb." Well, there's a LITTLE bit more than that, but not much.

Don't regular grocery stores still deliver in NYC?
It used to be an option for the big non-perishable shopping that we didn't want to lug around...

That's all a blur to me, having made the move to rural Brooklyn where the farmer down the road grows everything. Er, I mean the Park Slope Food Coop.

For those not familiar, 11,000 of us regularly work a few hours a month at the coop to get access to gorgeous cheap organic produce and organic meat/fish/beer, and a brilliant cheese counter - all at 22% above wholesale. It's a way around the food/consumer disconnect.

Curtis, just because my name is Nora doesn't mean I'm a senior ;)

The local "super" markets are no guarantee against the surly. I have almost come to blows with some of the beeeatches working the registers at the Associated near me.

Yes, local groceries deliver, but that usually involves going to the store in person first. Although I have used the D'Agostinos online service and was quite pleased (you go online to their website, shop and pick your delivery window. Ordering before 2 pm gives you a same-day delivery option.)

The thought of using FD scared me, because I'm *incredibly* fussy about my food. The thought of allowing someone else to pick things for me - well, I just thought they wouldn't meet *my* standards.

I was 100% wrong. FD sends, 99% of the time, things that I would have chosen myself (after poring over it for 20 minutes in the store), and often the quality if BETTER than anything I've seen in any store - even Fairway. The mean and fish have been exceptional, and while I agree that the sizes are bigger than I might (sometimes) pick myself, this is just a peccadilloe in the whole scheme of things. I buy all my meat an fish from them, large amounts, and freeze it. And if you order carefully, with an eye toward spoilage, even your greens and fruits can last quite a while (beans, cabbabe, kale, apples, pears will all last a while).

Regarding customer service - I've only had one person who was a *bit* cold/passive-aggressive - the rest were incredibly nice. Any time I had a problem with something that was delivered, they issued a credit immediately, no questions. Last week I got basil, called and said "I would not have bought it had I seen it in the store like that," and bingo - credit.

I live in upstate Manhattan, and used to trek down to Harlem Fairway every few weeks, buy (literally) 10-15 bags of groceries, and then take a car service back uptown. All totaled, over two hours. Who cares if I have to wait 2 hours at home to wait for a delivery.

In a perfect world, we'd all be closer to our food; but NYC ain't that perfect world. I'm moving to Brooklyn soon, found that FD does not deliver to my new area, and am very depressed about it.

I must admit that buying products flown in from various parts of the world is disheartening and does nothing to promote CSA, however; Whole Foods is thoughtful about their environmental impact, their packaging, the amount of pesticides on their produce, animal testing and their employees. Plus you can order online or through the phone and have it delivered. If you live downtown, don't worry, there is one opening up on Houston & Bowery soon. You may pay a bit more using Whole Foods but in terms of the amount of chemicals that both you & the earth are ingesting, you are actually paying quite a bit less. If you feel like really getting in touch with your food sources, go to the Co-op for all your non-perishables.

(one other great thing - any time you remember you need something, you just go to the site, put it in your cart, and it will be there when you check out. no need to write a list on the refrigerator, which you invariably forget to bring to the store.)

I started using FD about 6 months ago and love everything about it. Better quality meat and fish than I can find in my neighborhood, and I no longer have to trudge for blocks and blocks carrying bulky items. I don't use the service to get stocked up on everything. I place an order every other week. Yes, a lot of boxes but we recycle in this town. I've had one problem in 6 months. It was quickly resolved. FD has a great business model. It's the future.

i would never use fresh direct -- i grew up in a rural area, my mom had a garden and i always knew the name of the cow that gave up their life for my steak -- i have to know where my food is coming from, i shop at the greenmarket, i know my butcher on a first name basis, and sometimes the 'cows' say hi to me when i buy my milk (through a human, just so you don't think i'm crazy) -- i don't care if it costs more, i like the knowledge that i'm helping someone that was once my neighbor keep their farm in their family -- also, forcing yourself to shop everyday means you are eating healthy, fresh food, and carrying the bags home is a good workout!

Nora-
Oh my God! As I re-read my post, I see why you thought I meant that. Honestly, your post about the convenience of not having to lug stuff up a walk-up just made my mind leap to the idea of seniors.

Actually, the only Nora that I can remember knowing in person is probably only now in her early-30's and is a very wacky funny Irish-Italian jersey girl who used to work with me at my last job and that, now that I think of her, I kind of miss!

Sometimes I amaze myself with with great things I saw, and ... uh ... sometimes I amaze myself in just the other way. So sorry!

That said, I think it would be fun to think that we DID have seniors in here, while we're at, because they probably would give some interesting perspectives, too.

at FD my very first order had 3 items missing and a spoiled flank steak. Yes it was inconvenient, but i sent them an e-mail and i got a full refund (though in store credit).

When was the last time you actually bothered to bring in a spoiled product (first you gotta find the receipt!) for a refund? I think i'd rather shoot myself than stand in a long line only to interact with a rude employee get a refund on a mushy cucumber.

Now, all I have to do is send off a quick e-mail and it's refunded. i love it!

oh, and their grapes are wonderfully delicious and crunchy.

Curtis, just kidding! It's really kind of an inside joke, so here's the inside reference. My husband and a good friend of mine also have names from another generation. When a friend of ours was once asked what he did over the weekend, he said he went to dinner with "Chester and Nora and Bert." He was then immediately asked "how old are they?" (we were all in our 20s at the time). So there's a bit of a history there.

Anyway, big fan of your post--and your bathroom!

Martine, for most of us your scenario is unrealistic. Many of us a) do not live within walking distance of a farmer's market, let alone one that is there daily, and b) cannot afford to pay up to 100% more for our groceries.

In a different world, I'd agree with you, but...

post=posts

OK...clear the aisles, bile coming through...

Martine - Not to be (too) snotty but if you can find me a cow in the Financial District (where I live), I'd be happy to learn her name. I don't understand the connection with your "helping my neighbor keep their family farm" argument when you live in a city - it's not like Fresh Direct's produce is made in a laboratory. Your post just seems a little condescending in it's "I'm more natural than you" tone. Ugh. Do you wear hair shirts too?

After my second child was born and I was on maternity leave, I fell in love with FD. For those of us with toddlers, going to the supermarket can sometimes be a complete nightmare. Add a newborn to the mix and it is a godsend to have a service that can bring your groceries to your door.

Now that I live Uptown, I find the prices for certain items to be much less expensive at the local supermarket. But I will use FD for produce, certain cuts of meat, and other items that are not available at our local stores.

I do not use FD for 2 reasons:
1)I have a few friends who do use FD so i asked them all the same question " How is their produce" All said the same thing -- that the produce is terrible but the meats are excellent. Well i am a vegetarian so I don;t care about the meats. I live near a farmer's market that operates every weekend so i am able to stock up on great produce for very little money. Also I like to see what I am buying.
2) I had put together a list of foods that i buy consistently (pasta, dried beans, other staples like that) and I priced them at the grocery stores that I shop at. Then I went online and priced them off of FD. FD was so much more expensive. I save more money buying at the stores in my area as they have sales so often; there is I am usually able to buy SOMETHING on sale or with coupons. I watch my $$$$ very closely so FD is not for me. (P.S. I cook at home a lot!)

The Evils of Fresh-Direct
http://www.usemenow.com/web-log/archives/2005/06/the_evils_of_fr.html

"So Yin does your laundry, Torkwase raises your kids, Maria cleans your floors, Rick gets you in shape, Muhammad drives you around, and now thanks to Fresh Direct, Juan drives your groceries to you in a huge diesel truck. But, unlike these other services, the rest of us suffer for it. Pollution, more truck traffic, noise, and congestion. Double Parked assholes. Not too mention the drop in demand at the local Key for higher quality food products. Kids, watch out as a paticulate spewing diesel truck (which has to idle during deliveries to run the refrigeration) comes trundling down our quiet street at 50 to make his next delievery crosstown. Look, is your job at Burson-Marsteller so goddamned important that you have to relinquish every single personal responsibility? "Oh, but Jeff wipes asses so much better than I can, and its so convenient"

One thing I forgot to mention -- the idling trucks. They are a real problem in my neighborhood -- especially as they often deliver on early Sunday mornings. I swear. A friend of mine (who does not use FD) finally got sick of the truck that idles under her window every Sunday a.m. She called FD's customer service # & they basically told her "tough, live with it". Talk about rude customer service. The refrigeration unit is linked to the engine so they have to keep the engine going to keep the refrigeration on. Sounds pretty archaic to me in this day & age of high tech. And yes -- grocery stores still do deliver. thanks all.

even though i don't live in nyc anymore so i can't really contribute to the fresh direct conversation, i just wanted to pipe in b/c i'm obsessed with all things related to sustainable, local agriculture (i used to work at the san francisco farmers' market and now i work in urban planning and am doing research for public markets).

of course you should support local farms, but in nyc that can sometimes be difficult. if you can make it to the farmers' market and afford the prices, that's the best option. The idea of ordering your produce online is disturbing to me, just because i think there should be some kind of connection to your food. but if people are pleased with the quality, it's not that much different from having your csa box delivered-- in terms of the whole physical connection thing. of course having a csa box literally supports your local farms and sustainable agriculture in general.

is it possible to order organic and/or local produce from fresh direct? if not, i think the idea of ordering your nonperishables from that company and then getting your produce/meat/fish from more sustainable source (greenmarket!) makes a lot of sense.

does anyone get a csa box in the city? that's what a lot of people (myself included) do here in san francisco/berkeley/oakland, but i don't remember anyone doing that in nyc.

Ugh.

And, Dave, how do you think those groceries get to your grocery store? Horse? Magic carpet?

And really - there's a very, very nasty, race-related undertone to your posting, and not in the way you probably think.

Ali, you can get organic produce, eggs, dairy and meats at FD.

There were a couple of services in uptown Manhattan and Park Slope a while ago which delivered locally-grown produce weekly, but a) you had no choice as to what was going to be in the box, and b) it was incredibly expensive. As you say, I'm not sure how this is being any closer to your food than FD.

Regarding the comment on the horrible produce - I beg to differ. Just the opposite, the produce is far better than the vast majority I've seen in any market.

For the longest time, FD did not deliver to my zip code (10002) and then when they did, they did not deliver to my specific block. So I developed a hatred of them without even ordering from them, simply becuase I was unable to get a delivery. But for my food needs, and I do cook a lot, between the Fine Fare on Clinton St, Neon Food Corp on Ludlow, and the lovely meat / fish / produce counters at Essex market, I really have no need to get food delivered, fresh or otherwise. My favorite is Jeffrey's Butcher at Essex - good friendly people and one day they handed out roses to all the ladies. Would FD send me a rose? I don't think so.

phillip,

the race related tone is intentional, and its only nasty because you don't want to see the realities of the luxury service industry in new york. dont patronize me, i'm well aware of the implications of it...

your logic about how groceries get to the grocer is about as sound as saying buses and single occupancy vehicles are equivalent because both run on the combustible engine. you're going to need to put the horse before the cart if you plan on critiquing my objections to FD.

My first time resulted in an on-time delivery, a pleasant delivery man, yet also resulted in 4 out of 12 eggs broken and 4 huge boxes for my 50 dollars worth of groceries. For me, without a doorman, spending the time to breakdown the boxes, tie them up{as specified by the co-op), and bring them down 5 flights to the basement was a huge unwanted hassle. I'd rather run down two blocks to the regular grocer, or 5 to the Whole Foods. Granted I do live in grocery rich Chelsea, and if I lived elsewhere, 4 boxes and some broken eggs would be worth not having to go hunt down a grocery store.

I will probably use again the next time I need to stock up on canned and dry food items, which pack well and are heavy to drag 5 blocks.

ali - to answer your CSA in NYC question...
yes, but very limited. The Greenmarkets are much more available (and have the best fish in the city)

from http://www.localharvest.org
There are currently 37 different CSA sites in New York City, working with 16 different vegetable growers and about 20 farms that produce meat, dairy, eggs, fruit and flowers for CSA.

For information about joining a CSA site anywhere in New York City, visit call 212-645-9880 x 18 or visit http://www.justfood.org/csa/locations.
**Please note, Just Food is not a farm, but helps CSA farms start CSA relationships in all five boroughs of New York City.

Kelpek, I trust you obsessivley followed LES FD conpsiracy story as it unfolded over at Lockhartsteele.com
http://www.lockhartsteele.com/blog/archives/2004_04.shtml#000827

We used Fresh Direct for a while but started to realize that we were spending more for less than when we shopped at our local supermarket. When you spend $60 and realize what you actually get for that $60, it starts to not make sense after a while (and for some reason it's much easier to reach $60 on that website than it is in the grocery store).

I also didn't like their produce minimums, like sending us 3 lbs of black seedless grapes because that constituted "1 bunch". I do like the marinades and rubs they send with their chicken but I'm not willing to spend $30 on other things to get that... I'll make my own. :)

Sorry Out of Towner here. Finally this issue comes up for debate. In Chicago, we had the same kind of food delivery. I can see where it can be helpful for some,but I'm a control freak. I need to see my produce. I can't yell at my computer to comparision shop. I can't say well get the produce from the African/Carib/Asian grocery store, etc. I love shopping for food. I get my old lady roller cart and walk to sometimes 3-4 stores for food in one trip. As a vegetarian I would be livid to have limp, bruised vegetables handed to me. As for meat for my husband, I like to see what choice of cuts I have. My cooking is in my hands. I can't fully bring myself to trust anyone else with groceries.

guido, thanks for the info. i should do some csa research in nyc just to satisfy my own curiousity. maybe i can convince my boss it's related to my other market work.

pphillipp,
in response to your complaint that you couldn't choose what came in your delivered locally grown produce box- isn't that one of the major incentives of getting a "veggie box" or a csa box- it's seasonal, so you get whatever the farm has...

if anyone's interested- this organization called cuesa (the Center for Urban Education about Sustainable Agriculture), which runs the san francisco farmers' market, sends out a weekly email about what's going on in the sf market, but also includes a shopping list of what's in season, what's really good right now, and a recipe. i know i'm on the other coast, but the seasons should line up similarly (although i don't think our tomatoes, avocadoes, pluots, etc travel that well to the east coast). i think you can sign up for the email from their website www.cuesa.org

Dave--
Your comment was so anti-entitlement and so race-related that it was virtually impossible to discern where your argument against FD actually began. Don't make it sound like pphillipp just didn't-- or chose not to-- "get it". It was ungettable.

Pertaining to your rant and rattle against "luxury" service providers, where do you, personally, draw your own lines? Enlighten us evil consumers, if you please.

Unless, Jenny, they totally ignore your email, and you don't get a refund, or even an acknowledgement that they ruined other stuff. Forgive me, I'm still very bitter. They literally lost me as a customer forever after that, and I had just spent $400 on food for a party so you'd think they'd care.

FreshDirect has their bad moments, but they always make up for it. If I'm not impressed with a bunch of spinach or a piece of chicken, it's always refunded (either to my credit card or as store credit) within 24 hours. If they give me too much food and I complain, they'll issue a credit (once I ordered .5 lbs of meat and got .75). The packaging is weird and the delivery people can be a bit huffy after walking up 4 flights of stairs, but it's so much better (and SO much cheaper) than shopping at Whole Foods, D'Agostino or Food Emporium. I live at Union Square where there are grocery stores on practically every block, and I still order FD every week. The prices are lower, the food is generally better and, contrary to a lot of complaints here, customer service is above average for New York.

In addition, freshdirect.com is an elegant and easy website. What could be more enjoyable or easier than shopping at FD with a recipe in your hands?

warning: vegetable geekdom follows

ali, i don't think the cook-what's-in-your-box thing flies very well here but the greenmarkets are worshipped, and there's always the coop (www.foodcoop.com, or http://www.psfc.blogspot.com/)

and apropos of nothing....do you know about the USDA online info?
I came across this recently on another site, where a question for an obscure veg was met with . . .

According "New York City Fruit & Vegetable Report" for Friday, July 22, 2005, there was no cherimoya available through wholesale sources at the fruit and vegetable terminal in the Bronx.
 
http://www.ams.usda.gov/fv/mncs/nxw.pdf

I thought this was fascinating, and funny and . . . something else to waste time on in addition to the right color red to paint my wall . . .

Man, I am spoiled. After reading today's posts I checked out the FD website and was completely appalled at the prices.
Yeah, I know I do the car thing for groceries, but I get better prices on produce at my local bodega/Korean deli down the block. Dang.

Furthermore, in response to Dani's comments about being a control freak: you're never totally in control of what you're eating anyway. Unless you're on a farm, a lot of other people are touching and selecting your food before you ever see it at the grocery store.

"your logic about how groceries get to the grocer is about as sound as saying buses and single occupancy vehicles are equivalent because both run on the combustible engine."

Not really; your argument assumes that each truck to a grocery store carries in one load *appreciably* less than the FD trucks which are servicing tens (if not hundreds) of customers, that they travel less distance, use less gas and idle shorter times. Your argument that MY argument resembles equating a bus of 50 passengers with a car carrying one person is thus...well, I'll leave it at that.

"the race related tone is intentional, and its only nasty because you don't want to see the realities of the luxury service industry in new york."

No, you're wrong. Your post implies - among other things - that only "the ethnics" provide services, and only "the whites" take them (and by the way, was "Rick" the trainer - the only Anglo name - meant to be the homo?). You've basically created a room full of stereotypes (replete with apposite names); isn't this exactly the kind of one-dimensional thinking that only adds to existing inequities, or are the efforts of those organizations working against one-dimensional (media) portrayals of "minorities" just unnecessary? This kind of rant is simply designed to incite knee-jerk reactions, not to address the complexities of changing race, social and class issues which are no longer so black and white as you might like them to be.

"pphillipp,
in response to your complaint that you couldn't choose what came in your delivered locally grown produce box- isn't that one of the major incentives of getting a "veggie box" or a csa box- it's seasonal, so you get whatever the farm has... "

Not if I don't want, for example, three weeks of boxes full of squash (and nothing green in sight), which is what a friend wound up getting through one provider. And not if I want even a *bit* of choice what I'm going to eat that week.

And I will never, ever address anything non-design related again.

Every time Ive used FD (3x before giving up completely) they forgot the very items I most needed delivered (i.e. heavy stuff). When I called them to inform them, they only offer a store credit for those items. When you have to order a minimum of about 40 dollars and then pay for delivery in order to redeem that credit, its almost not worth it. Ridiculous. Also, I am tired of the frozen bread and the million boxes. I live on the lower east side, near delancey and would rather take the bus from the whole foods union square. Cant wait for the new WF, and will investigate the places other posters mentioned in my neighborhood! Also, I hate idling trucks!!!

okay, i feel the need to redeem my statement as it has now found its way to the front page of curbed -- i was not challenging people to find a cow in the financial district, or to even recommend driving to upstate NY to find a cow to get friendly with, i was simply stating that the way i was raised was to try and eat as close to the source as possible, knowing where your meat and vege come from not only benefits you and your health, it also helps the small farmer who is struggling to keep their farms in their family -- its a hard and fast truth that many small farmers are selling out to developers b/c it makes better financial sense to sell out for a lump sum than to continue pouring blood, sweat, tears and tons of money into something that only a handful of people will thank them for -- these people were my friends in high school, and if they choose to stay on the farm, i want them to have that choice
and in reference to the hair shirt, nah, i'm wearing a crappy old t-shirt and some jeans today, probably made in a sweatshop -- i pick my battles

Yeah, um, Dave? Do drivers and dry cleaners not need jobs? Perhaps you think everyone should be a computer programmer?
Anyway, we buy lots of stuff from FD and also shop at the green market, local bodega and green grocer from produce. My experience with their customer service has been nothing short of OUTSTANDING. Immediate response to on-line beefs (so to speak) and very prompt, polite resolution of any problems I have called about. Try getting that at my local Gristede's, which is a PIT. Also, for several months we were without anything but that pit within 10 blocks of us in either direction and FD was a life-saver since I'd rather pay $4.95 for delivery than $10 for a cab. As for prices, lots of things are just as cheap at FD. Plus, I recently started shopping 100 percent organic and their packaged food selection in that area was just as good as the "Health Nuts" store three blocks away. As for their trucks - HELLO! - We live in NEW YORK. You're expecting quiet?!?!

My local grocery delivery company has some good ideas. Firstly they are run by the local supermarket chain. Their prices are the same as in store, you only pay a small fufillment/delivery fee, which is cheaper the higher the final total of your order.
Secondly they use big plastic crates to deliver the groceries - with individual stuff packed in either plastic or paper bags. They then unload and take the crates away!

whoops, lots of typos. typing fast. not stupid.

I've never used them, but I have noticed a decline of the presence of their trucks on the UWS. The trucks used to be everywhere--with delivery people wheeling in stacks and stacks of boxes into the doorman-accented maws of the hoity-toitier buildings. But there's been a notable absence of FD of late.

I fondly remember Urbanfetch, when there was no minimum, no delivery fee, no job was too big, too small, and you got little freebie thank yous with your order...a cushy business model that no one thought would last, but it was enjoyable while it was around.

A friend lives in Jersey City and the only nearby market is the overpriced, gross deli in the train station. He doesn't mind, but that would be awful for me. rr, I totally agree about 'Ho Foods--it's great but my god. The constant near-collisions and not even being able to turn around without encountering some tailgating shopper make it an often frustrating experience.

These comments have been really helpful--i've been tempted to try FD, but I tend to feel a bit funny about letting others choose produce, and I'd worry about the perishables.

>

Lord know it's too hot today in NYC to pick a fight, so please don't take this the wrong way . . . but I keep seeing all these odd ideas about NYC on this board. OF COURSE we can expect quiet in the city. That's what URBAN PLANNING (and zoning and traffic regulations about trucks not idling for more than a certain number of minutes) are all about.

Ahh, which brings us back to good design.

guido, i feel like you are my nyc counterpart- even our bathrooms are super similar (although your walls are pretty different than my old "wood" paneling, but still!).

better urban planning in nyc would allow for more greenmarkets, affordable and throughout the city, and local groceries (and yes, places like whole foods) eliminating the need for fresh direct in the first place.

Until recently I used FreshDirect for 100% of my groceries. Never had any major problems aside from a few instances of things I hadn't ordered being included with my other stuff (I was never charged extra for anything). In my Astor Place-area neighborhood, the closest grocery stores are 5-6 blocks away, way too far for easy carting of stuff like detergent and 12-packs of Coke. I'm a frequent consumer of their prepared foods, and I have yet to try anything I haven't liked.

That said, I've been shopping more frequently at the new Union Square Whole Foods, but I use FD for all the stuff Whole Foods doesn't sell, i.e. cola and most non-organic breakfast cereals.

Groceries? Cooking? What's that? Some new fad in NY?

I read these posts with interest as I waited for my 8pm-10pm FreshDirect delivery tonight. I tend to side with the pro-FD faction as I have no grocery stores near me, live in a 4th-floor walkup and FD has been an amazing boon for actually getting canned goods AND a case of water home. I've had good customer service experiences with the smashed hummus containers, broken eggs and leaking milk. But tonight it seems fitting that 10pm would come and go and no FD delivery. I called and the (courteous) rep told me they were running 40 minutes late. When I asked why I wasn't informed in some way, she offered to refund my delivery fee. Then she went and checked on the truck and it turns out they are running an hour late. I understand that these things happen and told the woman on the phone so, but also told her that since the call was being recorded, I wanted to go on record as disappointed, especially on a day when a heated online debate was going on about FreshDirect. I don't know if anyone listens to their recorded calls, but I felt satisfied somehow in letting them know, gently, that stuff like this feeds the fire of the anti-FD camp.

More green markets in NYC?!? Have you, um, ever checked out real estate costs in NYC?

We used to live in Soho and used FD all the time: they often forgot a couple of things on the order, or added things they we had never wanted, but customer service always unquestioningly refunded the difference after a quick phone call. We were put off by the huge amounts of packaging and whilst I found the produce to be good - I suffered from somthing of a 'size' issue - I'd order 3 parsnips for a soup, and when they arrived they'd be titchy tiny, or i'd order a bottle of ketchup and it would take up the whole bottom drawer of my fridge - but that is my problem, because I tend to not follow standard weights and measurements when I shop, and can't really visualise the difference between 15 oz and 8 oz etc!

That said, now we live in Chelsea and we do a combination of different things. I think that the Fruit and Veg market in Chelsea market is the best quality and variety of fruit and veg anywhere, although not very much of it is organic. Also Ronnybrook dairy is the best tasting milk in the world. I do a FD shop every few weeks for the very heavy staples (none of which you can get at the market, and which I think are overpriced at Whole foods). We buy from the Union Sqaure and Bleeker street farmers market, and very occassionally I do a basics at Gristedes. I used to like shopping at the Bleeker street delis, but Murray's is so packed with people spending hundreds of dollars on cheese, I feel like i'm surrounded by food fetishists. It's just a little bit weird.

One day, friends of ours took us in their car to Fairways on the WEst Side highway, and it was like a trip to the seaside - we got these huge trolleys and raced up and down the aisles and then got a ride home -I was laughing at how excited I was.

I'm from Europe and I really miss just going shopping for food. Every time I buy food here I feel like I have to make huge informed consumer choices, and that if I don' want to or cant afford to buy organic I feel as though I must be being poisoned. I feel as though I have to be really informed and educated rather than taking for granted that people who produce food labelled organic might actually be interested in public health (remember the wild salmon fiasco a couple of months ago - almost none of the wild salmon on sale in NYC (including Citarella, Wholefoods etc) was actually wild). I do think that part of eating healthily is being able to have a healthy approach to buying food, and I'm not sure we are given that luxury very often here.

so i must enter the fray--
I live in NYC in part because good food is so very available. When I lived in rural Iowa, adjacent to a (1,000 acre) "small family farm," I could NEVER find vegetables in the huge grocery store. Miles and miles of corn as far as the eye could see, but no corn in the store. This is because it was a small town, and because none of that corn was being grown for us to eat. It was for silage and for seed.

The great benefit of living in Nueva York is that the population is dense enough that we can support a diverse supply of really good things to eat. Only in NYC can your local bodega carry organic milk, yucca root, american cheese and imported chocolates. Only in NYC can you buy lots of locally grown fruit and veg. that's amazingly good.

Greenmarkets are sustainable in this town, because the "small family farm" model can actually make a profit--there are plenty of people here willing to spend a little more for organic chokecherries (or whatever). This is not true outside of big coastal cities, Madison WI being the amazing exception.

FD is convenient, and Whole Foods is too. But whole foods is like walmart, to the little local healthfood stores. Given that WF was my first job (I worked the rotisserie chicken spit) I also know that their labor practices are really bad. They "don't believe" in unions.

So yes, buying groceries in NYC can be a pain in the ass. I just spent 6.5 hours yesterday at the Park Slope Food Coop, working my hours so that I can have the privilege of shopping there, and then carrying home a lot of heavy stuff in the heat. Not fun. But I ain't leaving--those groceries are better than any I ever ate in the heartland. And cheap, too.

Just to put it out front, I'm one of those who buy 98% of my groceries from FD (our local bodega has better and cheaper berries, so we skip FD for those). People who say that the produce sucks have clearly not used FD or are actively trying to damage their image; FD has fantastic produce. We've ordered from them at least once a week for 2+ years and have NEVER had a bad piece of produce. As I mentioned earlier, the only thing I've been unhappy with is the berries, but that's just a price thing. We live in Brooklyn and our grocery choices are limited to bodegas (spotty quality, limited selection), Key Food (filthy, wilted, surly), or the co-op (you have to mop to shop). Before FD, we ate out all the time. Now we cook nearly every night. I don't care what anyone says, the health benefits are worth the extra boxes and idling trucks.

hello all, a topic near and dear to my heart.

i tried FD once, even a second time, and just could not get into it. i second complaints of items out of stock, sassy CSR, idling trucks, the sense of disconnect, and overpackaging. what upset me most was the terrible quality of the produce and while i admit to being anal about produce selection, this was quite awful. (think slimy lettuce, bruised apples, etc.)

in my opinion, FD is a good source for mainstream items that are boxed, canned, or wrapped if you live in a neighborhood that does not have a grocery store. i would not buy anything fresh from this provider as my experience has taught me otherwise.

i also noticed that there is no mention of the granny cart here yet, or i missed it. i could not get buy without this item in NYC. sure, the tenants of my building look at me like i'm a mule as i return from the Union Sq. Greenmarket dare i say, pushing my own groceries home, as they pick up their FD orders. but to me, nothing can compare to gathering your own groceries and the feeling of being connected to the food that you eat. even if you live far from it, take the subway early one saturday, before the crowds arrive, at about 8 or 9am, and admire the BEAUTIFUL summer produce that is available.

visit one of the big ones like union square or prospect park. you might just find yourself standing next to some of the top chefs in the city as they select their produce for the menu that evening's menu. no store bought peach or head of lettuce can compare with the freshness and beauty of an item that was picked early that morning.

(one last grocery tip, i love to buy cases of poland spring water from staples-2 cases for only $9!! yes, they are a bit heavy to carry back but this is where the cart or two trips, which they allow, is a perfect solution).

My take on FD:
I use them if I have a busy week and cannot go to Fairway which I prefer because I like the act of shopping.
I don't like the boxes/trash aspect.
I do find thier CS lacking via e.mail (was ignored for a long time)
Quality is good.

NExt...

I don't know enough about the FD distribution system, but is it possible the wildly varying opinions here about produce quality is due to the food coming from different (albeit local) distribution points?

I did laugh when I read "the health benefits are worth the extra boxes and idling trucks."

FD rocks! Anyone in the city who willingly goes to dirty, stinky supermarkets, stands in endless lines, gets pushed and shoved by customers and their carts and spends more money at delis/bodegas clearly doesn't comprehend what FD is all about. Yes, they make some mistakes. Yes, occasionally the fruits/vegetables may be less than perfect, but unless you pay top dollar at Dean&Deluca, that's how it goes sometimes. FD has saved my life in the East Village where there are no good supermarkets. I've ordered everything from fillet of beef to yogurt and so far the amount of times that I have been delighted with my orders have definitely outweighed the times that I have been slightly disappointed, plus you just can't beat the low prices.

Never been a fan of the "my way is great so you must be stupid" argument.

Terrible customer service. They sent me rotten garlic and left out a loaf of bread and would not offer me a credit or send new ones but said I had to wait until I ordered from them again to get these things. I laughed and said there was no way I'd order from them again with that kind of service. They offer very poor brand selection which keeps me going to the supermarket instead, which I actually don't mind, having Whole Foods as an alternative. Whole Foods 365 brand is actually cheaper than much of what I'd find on FD and without a delivery charge. I find their waste of boxes appalling and indefensible. Also, a good friend used to work at FD and the employees were locked in every day when they arrived, doors only being unlocked when it was time to go home. And watch out for the prepared foods -- they were served eggplant which was prepared in a room with open paint thinner and several people went home with food poisoning. But what made her quit was the screaming fist fights between the upper management and a sexual harrassment suit. If they're still on fuckedcompany.com check it out.

kwj brings up a very good point about the anti union actions of whole foods. The now famous cow namer (congrats on making it onto curbed - I'm officially jealous but I can't be arsed to scroll up to find your name) makes a broader point in that she picks her battles. I know we all do but the whole FD is the enemy because of idling trucks and congestion seems a little too specious when there are more immediate and obvious problems in NYC.

If you do want to pursue the truck congestion argument then I would proffer that there are far worse and longer term problems that need to be solved with respect to the huge number of trucks passing through to NJ and other states that clog up streets in Brooklyn, LIC, and downtown Manhattan due various imbablances in tolls. The number of trucks using the free bridges and tunnels just to pass through to NJ far outnumber the number FD trucks that are actually providing a service to NYC. See this link for more
http://www.transalt.org/press/magazine/034Fall/14bridgetolls.html
and then google for stats etc.

Dave, as much as I enjoy your site (which I found thru curbed), especially the anti-sit posts, I am disappointed at the way you argue a point. AT regulars are more than willing to explore and issue intelligently and at length so your dismissal of pphillipp's issue was, um, disappointing I guess. It's up to you, of course, how you want to post but I'm just sayin'

Ptoo, kind of related to your point. Lot's of ppl have mentioned the excellent meat and fish from FD and I do recall an interview with the guy (not Ackerman) who left Fairway uptown (full story here www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/food/industry/n_10421/index.html) talk about how most meat and fish in supermarkets had, by the time they reached the shelves, gone through numerous temperature changes outside of the optimal temp for keeping the stuff fresh (due to multiple loading/unloading processes along the whole supply chain) that what you got was sub par. At FD they work with the suppliers to maintain meat and and fish at the optimum temp which means that the workers preparing the cuts work in very cold conditions but these conditions are maintained all the way to the refrigerated truck. So that may explain the consistently good reviews of the FD meat and fish. The guy did say that they were still experimenting to get the temp and conditions right for the fruit.

Thank you lynne for using healthily instead of healthfully. As a Brit import I remember, in the early days, bristling at some of the American English terms used (bring something to instead of take something to, gotten instead of received, funnist instead of most funetc.) and I have gotten over most of that now, except for healthfully. That still grates like finger nails on chalk board.

Finally, on another Brit related note: The granny cart thing. Ask any Brit living in NYC if they would ever have dreamed they would find themselves pushing one of these things in public and you would get the same response as if you had asked a Brit male if he would ever have dreamed that he would be wearing shorts on public streets. But in nyc you can do both these things and more with complete obliviousness because no one cares. So sienna I'm not so sure your neighbours are really looking at your cart with any kind of disdain. They must just be eyeing your produce.

A couple comments from someone who drives to the grocery and parks in a huge parking lot;

Idling - Assuming the trucks have to be running to keep the food cold, and both the FD and "regular" grocery truck drivers work 8hr shifts, both trucks are going to be running all day and emitting the same amount of pollution. So, the only real difference is the noise pollution outside of people's buildings.

Other than price, the thing that would probably turn me off to FD, would be the first time they forgot to deliver an important ingredient that I needed, thereby ruining the day's menu.

if we had good grocery stores near us, i probably wouldn't care much about FD, but we don't. the choices near us are dirty, smelly, poorly stocked, and cluttered. So FD has been a lifesaver! we've always been happy with the quality and service. Some might complain about the "freshness" of FD produce, but for us it is utterly fabulous.

About idling trucks, etc. -- overall, people in the city TEND to not have cars (at least in Manhattan, and least this person, who let his drivers licence lapse in 1987), but ya gotta eat, so for me, there will always need to be idling trucks that deliver to the restaurants; and for people who cook, those trucks may have to idle outside their apartment buildings.

It has a lot to do with how you feel like living. You need space? You go to places where there's so much space you need a car. So, your real estate is cheaper, but you have to spend money on a monthly car note and insurance. Well, of course, once you've already spent that, you might as well fill up that car with groceries. But you're not really spending as much less as you think. You're putting it into the "transportation" column, instead of the "food" column of your imaginary (or real) budget spreadsheet.

The REAL bottom line that makes people do what they do has to do with the human cost, and that is very subjective.

I live in a townhouse and work all day, so getting my food delivered doesn't seem that feasible or convenient. Also, food shopping options in the Park Slope section of Brooklyn are getting better every day. The latest great edition is Union Market, on the corner of Sixth Avenue & Union Street. (I used to be a member of the Park Slope Food Co-op just up the block on Union, but the work requirements, long lines and self-righteous politics got to be too much for me.) Soon, we'll also have Fairway and Whole Foods within driving distance.

jamie pup, good way of looking at it! thanks. : )

First: The remarks on race. I was intentionally looking to elicit visceral reactions with my inclusion of race in my comments on FD, which, if you look at labor statistics are not really stereotypes - but typologies. Koreans own a most delis in Manhattan. This is not a stereotype, this is a statistical reality. Most nannies, on the UES for example, are of African descent. Is this a stereotype? No. Again, it’s a statistical reality. Most maids and janitorial staff in this city are of Hispanic descent. People can be a little bit too PC when talking about who is employed in what sector, which is understandable when you look at the fallacies and racism of something like profiling, but I urge someone to dispel my examples and not be immediately uncomfortable around the issue of race. Furthermore, I was pointing these out because its not uncommon for folks of greater economic privilege in New York to outsource nearly every single domestic responsibility, and sometimes it takes a little ribbing to get at the greater issue surrounding this, to force folks to look at this from a little intimacy, and not continue to reinforce distance that pervades luxury servicing....

Second: Why though? Well, I have a great many objections to this as an urbanite first, and as an observer of localized urban economies second. There are real implications to urban neighborhoods when you stratify and regionally outsource to this degree. We could sit and footnote Jane Jacobs or Henri Lefebvre, but if you have any sense of what a diversified urban economy looks like, it doesn't translate into something like Fresh Direct. I would be more than happy to expound on that, but I think most people get my sense.

Third: On the ground objections to FD. Truck traffic on residential streets normally not subject to the Semi-trailers (truck routes anyone?) that would normally do most of the delivering to local grocery marts. You double the traffic - and the waste in labor, packaging, etc) since the initial delivery of products is made to LIC (the distribution point for FD) thereby creating a second tier of truck traffic/waste/etc. that would normally be covered by 'pedestrians with granny carts'. In addition, they sit double parked and idling on narrow residential streets, then speed off down these streets which are normally not subject to this type of traffic; because, as is attested here, they're running late. Of course they're are bigger and more intense problems around the transport of goods into NYC, but hey, we're talking about FD here, and the first step in reducing waste is with the pocket book. I really don't think this is unclear. Since you're busy sitting on your ass at Burson-Marsteller or in your apartment ordering groceries from a corporation online, again, because you're Job or Blog surfing is more important, you're not out in your neighborhood, engaging in a Local context, contributing to locally owned groceries, the street, etc I think its hilarious the griping about FD’s CS. What would you expect? They’re nowhere to found, just another number, website, and a faceless CSR on the other end. They know this. FD is representative of larger trends in the erasure of the Local and the rise of the Conglomerate. Why not live in somewhere else and get your books on Amazon, your groceries on FD, and your friends on Myspace… To those on the gentrification front, griping about shit grocery at the Key, by using FD you diminish the demand for better groceries wherever you are. Why would the local Key begin stocking more organic items, or yuppie products, if the new people in the neighborhood are ordering online? I don't know, maybe the sense of entitlement & merit that surrounds luxury servicing is part and parcel to the NY experience, but I tend to think not. Go to your neighborhood deli, cobbler, bookstore, record store, and coffee shop, whatever. Keep the outsourcing to a minimum, and keep the character of NY alive.

What a lively thread THIS has become, hunh?

- Curtis

Dave,

You sound like a fascist or a know-it-all college kid. Not everyone's priorities on every front can be those of Adbusters.

Peace

Dave--
What's with the Burson-Marsteller anger/fascination?

I find your choice "because you're (sic) Job or Blog surfing is more important" to be quite funny coming from someone who appears to HAVE a Blog.

And you could have totally made your point about outsourcing what you deem to be "luxuries" (child care, clothes-cleaning, etc.) without any of your so-called "typologies."

I still eagerly await hearing how you live your life, free of outsourcing and social regret. Teach us, please, but without the snide swipes and INCREDIBLE anger. Perhaps you could get a nice (insert your choice of nationality/"typology" here) therapist, and outsource some of that pent up anger. Don't spew it all over a decent, diverse, witty, educated community like AT.

I can't reconcile the number of boxes with my conscience. Plus, it is a real hassle dealing with the boxes. If they figured out a way to reuse boxes, I would most definitely give them another try.

anybody live in astoria? walk up and down 30th ave., there, and behold the wonder that is queens.

there are overflowing 24-hour produce markets on three corners. an italian salumeria (where they still speak italian), a place to buy 20 kinds of olives, three fish markets, and four butchers. my favorite butcher's had a shelf at the cash register with serbian, greek, italian, spanish and english dictionaries.
also (for dave's benefit) cobblers, jewellers, local video stores, coffee shops, thai restaurants, pakistani sweetshops, oh yeah and a key food.

but this kind of density is dependent on an intensely hardworking immigrant community. the abuelas know where to buy cheap produce, and the greek guys sell it hard.

and in most parts of brooklyn, such small, local businesses are gone. just try buying a nectarine on court street these days.

patrick(the other one)- i'm not sure if this thread is going to keep going, but i just wanted to respond to your point about the greenmarkets in the current real estate economy. first, i'm COMPLETELY aware of real estate prices in nyc (it's actually part of my job to observe real estate markets all over the country)- but i'm also very aware that there are plenty of neighborhoods that have the space (parking lots, brownfields, church steps, etc) for temporary, weekly, small greenmarkets.

a greenmarket could be one of the best components to revitalizing an area that needs more of a public presence, bringing people to the area, bringing money to the area (b/c after or before shopping for fresh produce, people can also shop or eat in the area), besides bringing fresh, local, sustainable agriculture to the city.

i don't mean to sound pedantic at all, i just want to be clear that when i said more greenmarkets, i didn't necessarily mean a permanent, year round public market.

besides the weird racial epiteths, this thread is super interesting to me-- the idea of what plays into the decisions of how urban dwellers get their fresh food and the almost complete lack of options for some neighborhoods.

oops, make that epithets

That kind of density is also reliant on a population that can shop every single day and can afford the time to hit seventeen different stores to make one meal.

Ali--
Thanks for the re-post and the clarification. I understand your point more now, and those scenarios do sound feasible/smart/beneficial.

I just think most of Manhattan is so far past the "small solution" when even the tiniest lot can generate huge profit, as we all wait in line to hand over $250,000 for a 185 square-foot apartment.

Patrick, you can address me or my points. I see you've chosen the former. I don't know why you took the post so personal. A few people raised some points in response to my blog post - yes you're an acute observer, I do write a blog - and asked for clarification. I was attempting to do that. I didn't, don't, and haven't meant to do anything but bring an opinion. I didn't know I wasn't being decent. I'm not angry with you, the forum, or FD for that matter. I do, however, take offense to your trite and pithy one liners, which are the antithesis of witty decent and intelligent discussion. I'm sorry thats the case. And I'm sorry to anyone else who read me that way, it wasn't my intention.

As for my personal choices, since this seems to be the way in which its now been coded, well, I'll do my own laundry, raise my own kids, and yes, shop for my own groceries. If that gets me on the cover of Adbusters, or makes me a fascist, thats a pretty sad commentary.

Dave--

As a hispanic woman that (gasp!) uses FD instead of driving one of their trucks I found your earlier comments quite offensive.

But as a working mom who doesn't have the luxury to stay at home because living in this city requires two incomes I find this comment

"I'll do my own laundry, raise my own kids, and yes, shop for my own groceries"

to be quite uncalled for. Yes, I do hire someone to help care for my children but that doesn't mean I don't raise them. I do raise my kids as do all the hard-working mothers in this city.

Please think before you post.

You are apparently a man of contradictions. You fish for a visceral reaction (by your own admission), then claim you are being taken too personally.

Since you seemed to have all the answers, I honestly wanted to hear how you bring your philospohy to life, as an actual way to help educate those who might live differently than you do. That way it's a constructive soapbox on which you stand.

And, for the record, I find the pithy and trite to sometimes be the perfect counterpoint to the longwinded and overblown.

Well Ana, I'm sorry I offended you. Did I advocate stereotyping every person you meet? Or did I point out the Fact that most cooks in New York City are not white working class kids from Upstate. Funny, there was an article in the Times about how most delis are Korean owned, and Gasp, nobody was protesting them for being rascist. Here I am getting flogged for pointing out the obvious. Go to the 92st Y at the end of the day, see whose waiting for those kids. It ain't college educated white dudes... Does pointing that out equate to a racial epithet? No. Does it mean you should assume that all white college educated men are CEOs? No. Lets talk from a more informed point of view please.

In regards to 'raising kids', someone asked me what I thought was my own personal line for who I pay for what services, and I answered that. Does that mean I think its wrong for you to hire a nanny? No. We all do our own personal accounting and thats just fine. As I said in my post, its fine, because it doesn't effect the neighborhood quite like way FD does. Read all my comments before you post a shrill response.

The web is a very strange place, isn't it? We all have such immediate access to the parts of each other minds that we choose to share. The thing is that very few people would be motivated enough to find each other in real live meatspace to get into such lively discussions.

This is probably not the right site for it, but it would be VERY interesting to see how various people would envision a utopia to be. Each would probably come up with a version that few or none of the rest could bear for even a day.

when I lived in astoria, I shopped every few days, usually on my way home from the train.
but I concur with ptoo, here--such a daily method requires time that most don't have.

Well Patrick, seems it worked a little to well on you, because you can't seem to circle back to the issue at hand: Fresh Direct. Again, is it impossible for you to respond to a point in relation to the subject, or are you only able to wield personal attacks in lieu of not have an informed response?

but I ain't saying astoria was utopia--
I was posting to the pre-vitriol section above (I am still referring to real estate and more european modes of buying fruit, alas. although urban utopia and nannying are certainly interesting...)

by the way, things are somewhat different in the other boroughs. which is where all those truckdriving/nannying/bodega-owning folks tend to live.

Wow, FD certainly has some organicly grown cotton fair trade non-sweatshop undies in a bunch.

I have used them for over two years, and they are far superior to that mom-and-pop Pathmark store I had to go to previously.

Being as I never buy packaged or prepared food, I've found the produce quality and prices excellent. I've spent less than I used to at Pathmark (which I still use for paper goods every few months), my fridge is bursting with tasty veggies and meats, and it's easier to plan meals when I can shop online with my recipies right beside me. Wastage in my kitchen is down to a bare minimum now.

I still hit the farmer's markets on the weekends when I have taime for extra veggies, but the prices there are often similar to FD. For a while I tried Urban Organic, a CSA delivery service, but apparently their definition of Organic was "small and dirty", and about to spoil. It was ludicrously expensive for what it was.

Fresh Direct is very convenient for those who work long hours and would rather spend their limited free time doing something else than wait in long lines at the grocery store and lug heavy bags home. They have pretty flexible delivery times as well...as late as 11pm where I live. Also, in terms of quality and price, there's no comparision with the other options in my neighborhood, Nolita...until, of course, the Whole Foods on Bowery and Houston opens up.

p(too), i love your "pithy and trite" comments. keep them coming!

FD is good, dave is a punk-ass-hat. End of debate.

I've been using Fresh Direct since November '03 when I moved into a 6th floor walkup. Once a month or so I order all of my cleaning supplies, paper produces, bottles of seltzer, along with some fresh food from FD so that someone else carries it up the stairs (I tip generously). I would never be able to buy in quantity if I had to haul the stuff myself. I find their prices competitive -- and cheaper than Whole Foods -- and the selection adequate for my needs. Between deliveries I fill in from the Farmers Mkts and other stores in the neighborhood.
They've only made one mistake (they included 6 large cans of Pineapple Juice (which I hate), in my order). When I complained, they told me to just keep it even though I would rather have sent it back. I ended up taking the cans over to a nearby church. I've never tried any of the prepared foods.
I find the delivery people to be really sweet. All in all, I'm glad FD is on the scene. It has made my life easier.

Dave:

There are far, far too many contradictions in your postings to address. You seems to see things only in terms of your cartoonish fantasies where good and evil = black and white. Since the name dropping indicates that you seem to have done your requisite grad-school reading, does none of the recent literature on the changing nature of identity politics do anything for you? Or are you just stuck in Hardt and Negri land from a previous seminar? (See, I can name drop, too. I must be edja-ma-cated.)

Your comments are, indeed, based on viscera and anger and straw (wo)men you've set up to deal with your own issues; this is obvious, and that's why p2's "personal attacks" (which aren't, really) are entirely warranted. Ana's response to you is just perfect: she shows that all the neat, little boxes you want to fit everyone into (with or without the FD logo) are collapsing - and you are clinging like mad to an antiquated mode of exegesis. Nobody calls the Times article on Korean grocers "racist," because the Times article did not intend to address complicated, nuanced issues like race and class in an incisive manner; you claim that you *did* try to do just this, and as such I'm telling you that, in my opinion, you failed. Dependence upon such tactics as you tried to use only sets the debates back about 20 years, not forward.

"To those on the gentrification front, griping about shit grocery at the Key, by using FD you diminish the demand for better groceries wherever you are. Why would the local Key begin stocking more organic items, or yuppie products, if the new people in the neighborhood are ordering online?"

Please, please tell me - and I would seriously LOVE an answer to this - what are "yuppie products"? Are organic items yuppie items? Would you like more people to eat organic? Should people making low incomes be chastized for *not* buying organic, because they can't afford it? Should people who are working long hours (making minimal salaries) and/or taking care of children be chastised because they don't spend an extra hour every day grocery shopping, taking a cart around to 4 different stores to find decent food - which is probably not within walking distance of their homes? And in the coming years, while we're all waiting for local groceries to improve, what do you suggest we eat? Seriously?

Self-righteousness and poor theory usually go hand in hand. I'm sorry for the tone of this, but for you to point your finger at everyone is really too much.

FreshDirect is WAY cheaper for many items than local stores, and more expensive than local outlets for others. You don't have to buy everything from them.

I live in williamsburg and have awful options for groceries. The local supermarket, "Tops", seems to sell overpriced produce that is on its last leg from other shops. Their prices on non-perishables are sky-high. There's a local cheese shop, but it focuses on higher end stuff -- I don't have a need for artisinal $15/lb cheeses.

For $5, freshdirect will truck to me frozen items and groceries that tend to be 15% cheaper than at d'agostinos, produce that is cheaper and better than at tops, and cheese that is as good quality that I would expect in a cheese shop if they carried a 'bridge' line. They also truck to me cases of seltzer and bottled water , and I only have to walk up 2 flights of stairs -- no battles with shopping bags for awkward walks home.

Most stores in NYC will home deliver for $5 - but you still have to wait on line. You can order freshdirect while you're at work, and schedule a delivery to arrive around when you get home. That's perfect. Not to mention that shopping at whole foods is a fucking nightmare - checkout takes forever, and their produce is WAY overpriced.

I had a few problems with them, and I called -- because I know that emails get screwed up a lot. Each time I got a refund or the missing/broken items redelivered the next day without any questions asked.

To those that think freshdirect is the devil: get a hobby and some anti-depressants. There's a world out there to explore and far worse things to crusade against than home-delivered groceries. Why don't you take your misdirected energy and go picket the Fox News building or something equally sinister?

Pphillipp,

Can you point to where I claimed that I was going to:

"address complicated, nuanced issues like race and class in an incisive manner...and as such I'm telling you that, in my opinion, you failed."

What I claimed was “sometimes it takes a little ribbing”. Nowhere did I talk about incisive, deep, complicated critiques, just ribbing. Do you know that colloquialism?

Did I ever say FD was evil? No. Did I ever condemn anyone for hiring a nanny? No. You made all those leaps yourself.

So really, I'm not stuck in Empire, but it is apparently a crime to point out that most firemen are white. Oh wait, I didn't, the NAACP did that. Cartoonish fools.

And who, specifically, was I pointing a finger at? Surely to those who responded with a one liner here and there, those too puckered up to address my points, which were about What FD means to Neighborhoods – from an Urbanist’s Perspective. Let me reiterate: I said FD, in my opinion, has a profoundly detrimental effect on the neighborhoods we live in - and represents something bigger and more troubled than just consumer choice. I didn't know this was the FD fan club message board. Maybe that’s why you feel like I’m pointing fingers. I’m just pointing out my perspective, I’m sorry it hurt your feelings. AT asked contributors to discuss. So I blithely posted a blog entry I wrote and then the dogs were released, howling with doltish remarks about my stereotyping and the likes. Get a grip. You're the one tiptoeing around like its 20 years ago, not I.

On the gentrifying portion of the post: Part of the reason poor people don't have access to good groceries is part of the reason why you're getting such a 'good deal' on your rent. You could work to get those services in place, or not. Frankly, I don't think trucking in groceries from LIC is the solution, but again, that’s my own cost/benefit analysis. Again, let my identity politics play for you Pphillipp, from an Urbanist’s perspective.

I think you can do the math on what constitutes a yuppie product. This is not an etymological game. As far as organic, I wish is was more readily available. But that has nothing to really do with why I’m not a fan of FD. I wish there were more coops, like the one in Park Slope, that sell HQ items at cost (organic, yuppie, and otherwise) in exchange for 2 hours of work a month. But there isn’t, and that’s too bad. I love organic and yuppie products a whole lot, but I don't like them enough to order FD to my apt. That is my own mental cost/benefit analysis, and I never said others were any less 'good or evil' for coming up with a different sum. To me there’s more to think about then just consumer choice. It was a discussion, remember, not a cheerleading practice.

So you can act like a faux well adjusted cosmopolitan twat if you want, but I never attacked anyone on any point during this entire discussion, until now.

Dave--
Um, your very first post said "Look, is your job at Burson-Marsteller so goddamned important that you have to relinquish every single personal responsibility?"

If that was not an attack, then what exactly was it?

Look, you lowered the bar on this thread by introducing something completely irrelevant to the discussion, then you claim it's everyone else who has trouble staying on point.

Perhaps *everyone* is having a hard time correctly interpreting your wisdom because you come across so holier-than-thou, so condescending, so insulting, so sanctimonious and so bitter that we can not find the pearl of wisdom buried in the locally-harvested but very much spoiled oyster...

pphillipp may be a "faux cosmopolitan twat."
You sir, however, are the real deal.

Dave, from the get-go you were offensive, and you've bascially shown yourself for what you are.

You "arguments" don't impress me one bit, and you have zero idea what or who I am, or what kind of income I have, or what I do for a living, or how old I am, or even what race I am. All you have are your simplistic fantasies.

No one on this site wants to read any more of this, so if you have something to say, you know how to use the link.

In the meantime, filthy sybarite that I am, I'm going to look at some beautiful design. Have mercy on my soul, please.

Why the hell would someone flat out refuse to use them? They're not an evil corporation. That is childish and defensive, unless you've had a bad experience.

We use them for all of our groceries and have even found their customer service to be responsive and personable. Just don't use your debit card, as they reserve too much money.

and you my friend, also have no idea who i am. goodnight and be well.

We may not know (or really care) who you are, but your latest post links to the email pennyloafer1, the same email address used by "Jim", the guy who thought my apartment looked like Gay kitsch.

Well, if nothing else, we now know you are consistent.

I have met some of the ppl here and they come across in person and on this thread much better than you do Dave. I think you come off much worse in this exchange despite your protestations and backpeddling. Which is a shame. As I first stated, I have followed your site for a while and I thought you were a pretty cool person.

I think what happened here is that you tried to re-use a post that some of your friends found uproariously funny but it was funny in the way private jokes are. Some times they are too offensive to voice outside of your circle and this is what happened. You were used to acclaim for those views, didn't get it here (which is ok) and when someone questioned you on it you dismissed them. I asked you to elaborate and you came across as a little too strident and, dare I say, shrill. You made a mistake, you dug yourself deeper and deeper into a hole but we all do that sometimes.

Permit me to elaborate now. Your stereotypologies are very commonly encountered and the types of services utilized by people that earn a lot more money than most ppl here. Similar to some the elitist drivel that NY mag puts out (Alpha mom article, ibanker wives and their personal trainers, cooks, multiple nannies etc.) you are describing a world that most of us are not privvy to (full disclosure: I do know an ibanker wife who has a cook, cleaner and three nannies for one toddler). As such your "ribbing" is either lost on us in a way that a white trustafarion hipster's ironic digs at the Williamsburg scene will be lost on a Puerto Rican kid from East Harlem (and having done volunteer work in East Harlem I know some of these kids), or we have had to fight stereotypes and prejudice because we are minorities and have done far more to correct injustice or fight the system than your lilly white ironic method of ribbing against the machine.

No offense again because, as you so insightfully state, I don't know you but I'm just sayin'
;p

i don't know who he ("he"?) is, and quite frankly i don't care. it's clear he/she/it is an attention whore. why waste our collective energies?

and i continue to think jamie pup is very cool, and the model of balance. very Boaz and Joachim.

even engineers read!

but on point - FD. i use visits to the grocery store (or the farmers' markets in my home Adirondacks) for inspiration on what to eat / cook / serve to guests. i'm not sure i'd get the same spark from a webpage.

and it's bad enough i eat EXACTLY the same thing every time i go to (gasp) burger king.

KMJ--Thanks for the shout-out to Astoria. I live there, and love shopping in the neighborhood.

For quite a while, FD was not available in the neighborhood (despite the nearby warehouse in LIC). By the time they arrived, I was pretty used to shopping in the neighborhood.

I generally divide my shopping between a local international supermarket, C-Town (it is ok in my neighborhood, but I've been to crappy ones in other neighborhoods), and a small organic market, using bakeries, fish markets, and other specialty stores in in the 'hood on occasion. Once in a great while, I'll go to Fairway to stock up on their generic non-perishables (taking the M60 home), as well as the Union Square Greenmarket if I happen to pass through on the way home. I use those enviro-tote thingies because it is easier to carry stuff that way and I always end up with too many plastic bags anyhow. Despite how complicated this all sounds, I rarely shop more than once a week, and often only need to shop every two weeks, with careful planning.

According to the FD site (http://www.freshdirect.com/department.jsp?deptId=local&trk=gnav), they do have some local products for sale. While ordering food online generally doesn't jive with my shopping style (and my ever-slowing metabolism, which benefits from walking), I would consider trying them for organic meat products, which can be difficult to find in some stores (my organic market is vegetarian).

I love that this site attracts so many intelligent, detail-oriented (hence the fascination with design and living spaces at large) people. While this conversation has been interesting, I do think it is a shame that it has taken some ugly turns.

KMJ--Thanks for the shout-out to Astoria. I live there, and love shopping in the neighborhood.

For quite a while, FD was not available in the neighborhood (despite the nearby warehouse in LIC). By the time they arrived, I was pretty used to shopping in the neighborhood.

I generally divide my shopping between a local international supermarket, C-Town (it is ok in my neighborhood, but I've been to crappy ones in other neighborhoods), and a small organic market, using bakeries, fish markets, and other specialty stores in in the 'hood on occasion. Once in a great while, I'll go to Fairway to stock up on their generic non-perishables (taking the M60 home), as well as the Union Square Greenmarket if I happen to pass through on the way home. I use those enviro-tote thingies because it is easier to carry stuff that way and I always end up with too many plastic bags anyhow. Despite how complicated this all sounds, I rarely shop more than once a week, and often only need to shop every two weeks, with careful planning.

According to the FD site (http://www.freshdirect.com/department.jsp?deptId=local&trk=gnav), they do have some local products for sale. While ordering food online generally doesn't jive with my shopping style (and my ever-slowing metabolism, which benefits from walking), I would consider trying them for organic meat products, which can be difficult to find in some stores (my organic market is vegetarian).

I love that this site attracts so many intelligent, detail-oriented (hence the fascination with design and living spaces at large) people. While this conversation has been interesting, I do think it is a shame that it has taken some ugly turns. Sorry for babbling so long.

d'oh--sorry for posting twice. i got an error and thought the first post didn't take.

I think Whole foods is a bigger monster. They buy up local coops and shut them down. They are not a coop and are super expensive. Bye.

so yes, may I now hate on Whole foods, too? Long lines, high prices, and yup, they put co-ops outta business. They are so...wholesome. WF commonly hires people as part-time employees, and then requires them to work for 39.5 hours/week. Nice. That means that the part-time "associate" (nice Orwellian use of language, too, by the way) doesn't get any of those full-time benefits.

I worked there as a college-kid summer "associate," so I couldn't get too pissed off. But there were plenty of people slinging tofu patties all day in order to support their families. Like walmart, whole foods should be ashamed of itself. And lemme tell you, after cleaning out their rotisserie chicken grease receptacles, I ain't ever eating anything from WF again.

I probably can't afford it anyway. Perhaps I'm overreacting, but what really bothers me is when some of the delivery guys sexually harass me as I'm passing some fancy smancy building where they're making deliveries. Is it just me, or are the FD delivery guys worse than other men in that respect? And I, too, hate the way FD trucks are idling all over the city creating more pollution.

Felica,

You are so right. Not only do they harass you on the street, but I have a sneeking suspicion that the guy who delivered my food last week, called 20 minutes after he made my delivery and sexually harrassed me on the phone. It freaked me out.

I used them a couple times when they first started up, and might use them again if there wasn't the minimum order amount. I'd rather just walk over to the store. But I remember being horrified at one cantelope wrapped all in styrofoam and plastic and contained in it's very own plus-size box, that could have fit about 20 cantelopes. There were a couple other instances where I ordered a few things and received about 10 big boxes, each with its own grocery item rattling around inside . . . but the other reason I don't like them is because of the trucks idling on my street. I've walked out and asked the drivers to turn the engines off (isn't it the law?) but they say they have to keep the refridgerators running. Seems weird to me--can't the refridgerator shut down for five minutes? I live on a quiet West Village street and it's as if the local bus was parked outside.

Look, I refuse to overpay for anything. When I go to grocery stores 90% of what I buy is what's on sale in the flyer. On principle alone I boycott D'Ag and especially Food Emporium, aka "A&P But We Doubled The Price". (I mean, let's take all the A&P's in the city, give them a pretentious name, and then sell the same store-brand crap at premium prices.) C-Town and Met are too gritty and scary to shop at - you have to watch out for their whole let's-just-rewrap-the-meat-with-a-new-date thing. Gristedes is bizarrely expensive without even attempting to provide the premium atmosphere. Pathmark is a fricking experience but you can only schlep to Harlem so often. That leaves just Associated and a few other stores, which are few and far between. So when FD came along and actually offered prices that are less than Gristedes, I was sold. I don't buy everything from them, but I do order once a month or so for big-ticket items. The other issues about trucks, labor, etc. are no different than any other grocery store. Keep the prices on meat and soy milk and yogurt down and I'll stay a happy FD customer.

I cook all the time and I would never never think of ordering anything from fresh direct. Especially not when I am living in a big city with all kinds of stores. Once or twice a week I go on a shopping tour and just I love my cheese shop, my meat shop, my fish shop, my coffee shop and my vegetable shop. I even rarely go to a regular super market as my favorite small shops provide me with a better variety.

I heard the FD trucks were not refridgerated. ?
Also, note the truck plates, call FD and get them fired if
they are obnoxious.

www.qgazette.com/news/2004/1014/Feature_Stories/018.html

Fresh Direct is fabulous!!! It adds another complete dimension in this City loaded with choices. Personally, I love it, and now dislike the conventional method(s).

I used to work for kozmo, they were shut down bye 1)Corruption-From High level manager to Bike rider everyone was stealing
2)Stupid and overzealous Planning they expanded to like 7 cities to soon to fast
3)DID I MENTION STEALING???
4)company leadership was to stupid to handel the demand There where some very good people there though like Jim and Warren and Black Nate

No freshdirect is quite a wonderful company I dont use them for fruits and vegetables but my wife likes to use them for my non-perishables and for their frozen breads. I belive that meats and such should be the domain of my greek merchant friends in astoria. "broadway and 36th st" as for the trucks well they arn't so bad its just part of life in the city. There are some really good people working at Freshdirect that I had the chance to meet and speak to. Wonderful visionaries and hardworking managers/delivery persons

especially Jason , John , Ali and Manny at customer service

We used to use FD every single week during their first year. Loved the food quality and prices, but had a recurring problem with needlessly rude delivery men. Not all, some were very nice. But enough were rude to start us not enjoying the process. (All contact with others in the company was very nice)

By the second year the prices had started eaking their way up and the rude delivery problem persisted. Well, we stopped using them. Just tried them today for the first time in many months and while the food was all wonderful, guess what? Yup, rude delivery person! To make matters worse, he asked for a tip at the end.

I really don't like fresh direct. I have never even ordered froem fresh direct. I have saw tens on advertisments in my neighborhood about fresh direct. I thought "cool they diliver in my neighborhood. (10009)" But when i entered my address on their website, it tells me, fresh direct is not available in your area. That is so stupid. Why bother puting ads in our neighboorhood and never make a single dilivery here. But when I seen a delivery being made in my nieghborhood. they only deliver on a certain side of the street and not the other. I think it is a racial thing

I have to pick the apples I want, the oranges I want, the avocados I want, the steak with the right amount of fat, the right thickness, the right weight.... Unlike computers, each one really is not that similiar, and I want to find what I think is the best, within reason of course. I cannot imagine trusting someone who absolutely does not care to make the right choices. What if what they deliver is not as good as you had hoped? wouldn't it ruin your cooking? If I go to a store and don't see fresh basil, well, maybe I can get some other herb and make a different dish instead. This may sound funny, but whenever I buy food, I have to feel as though I am falling in love with it and really really want to have it in order to buy it. Only then, it is a treat, not a stomach stuffer. Shopping for food is a discovery experience. You see things that say, take me home, take me home, then if the price is ok, you buy it. FreshDirect can't do that for me.

I used to use Fresh Direct almost exclusively but the routine delivery, delays, missing items and difficult customer service ruined the experience. I thinks its very convenience for non perishables and cleaning supplies since the prices are a heck of a lot better than the Food Emporium. As a family of four every little bit helps.

new brooklyn condos are adding the luxury of a walk-in cooler to house all of your FD orders until you get home to pick them up. no more waiting in your 2hr window. how bout that?!
Question for the group;
Would you rather reduce the minimum order to $20 or cut the delivery fee in half to $2.50 and keep the $40 min?
your answers could shape the next deal FD is making with brooklyn developers...

I used to use Fresh Direct all of the time, but they've been getting worse and worse in terms of breaking bottles, showing up more than an hour late, charging me for things I don't receive, sending me the wrong items, etc. It got to the point that it was easier to just shop at the grocery store every week or two. Phone customer service used to be really good too, but recently someone on the phone blamed me for a missing item, and they wanted to come inspect my boxes to make sure - who has time for that? FD is supposed to be convenient, but it has become a pain in the ass, so I went back to doing it the old-fashioned way.

I think that FD got big really quickly and customer service has really really suffered as a result; I've actually spoken to quite a few people who feel the same, but maybe once FD gets over some of its most recent growing pains, it'll get better, but maybe not....

Why in the world would you not shop aat Fresh Direct? They are at least 15-20% cheaper than the city supermarkets . Even drugs are cheaper than at duane reade. It is delivered to your door. Customer service is good.

My wife sometimes complain that she likes to chose vegetables herself. Fine, do so. But at least you can order them if you do not want to.

Sure, I love shopping online, and they have good stuff and not-bad prices. But I am fed up with their ridiculous policies, and the wastefulness of their packaging.

For example:
http://blog.verbalchameleon.com/?p=196

I took these honest-to-goodness photos (in the blog posting linked above) of two huge boxes, opened in succession, each containing one tiny item. They only pack items from the same part of the store together, and it leads to a lot of waste. And then they deliver too many boxes (more than necessary) all over the city. Some are reusede, but most, used once, go straight to recycling.

This is Fresh Direct's lousy packaging policy, and it is just one more way in which they're contributing to wasting resources and polluting our city. They should pack more carefully and they should collect and reuse their boxes somehow.

FD is unsustainable. full stop

if you go to farmer's markets, you'll:

a) support the locals

b) not ingest that interesting waxy shiny coating over the apple skins.

c) put less stress on oil demand! hey, we're having an oil problem and the FR trucks are ubiquitous.

d) be more in shape. even though produce at GM's may be a wee bit pricier, you'll probably end up saving money. you'll be getting free exercise and not need to pay for gym/trainer! imagine all the calories being burned off after you take a subway, while bringing along one of those carts on wheels, shopping at a GM/co-op/csa, and returning home -- therefore the only money that has been spent on fuel, were the farmer's trucks.

e) not have to deal with that small mountain of embarassing packaging that is left after you put everything away. enough said.

display adaptability, folks! help curb our voracious consumer tendencies + complacencies!

life is more interesting beyond it, i promise.

There's a new food delivery service coming to NYC... Bread-n-Brie (breadnbrie.com)

From what I've heard, they seem to be a little more eco-friendly than the other option