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I recently caught heck from a sales associate for snapping a few pics of desk I wanted to purchase...but had to show my husband first. I bought the desk, but not from them...

It's not a good policy to have. It does nothing to prevent the theft of ideas -it's not as though competitors can't walk in and look at it with their own eyes.

I would suggest using a cell phone camera. Done right, no one knows if you're taking a picture or sending a text.

There was even a cell phone commercial where someone photographed a frog at a garage sale and sent the photo to a friend to see if the friend wanted it. Why stores don't realize/care that customers do this for valid reasons is beyond my understanding.

I think their reasoning is flawed.

Are you not sympathetic at all? Especially in the case of small independent stores, designs are ripped off in just this way all the time, certainly in London.

you have no idea how often this type of thing happens to me, especially because i have a big ole dslr that is so not covert. shooting from the hip in a big store is way easier with a teensy point'n'shoot.

but really, i think it's a dumb policy. stealing ideas? okay, right, yeah. i think if anything, it stems from the stores preventing people from "scoping" out the joint, which is the same reason shooting in the subway in nyc is no longer allowed, or in building lobbies, public hot spots, government buildings...should i go on?

http://photojojo.com/content/tips/legal-rights-of-photographers/

i don't agree, lesley - any thieving designer could walk into that same store, memorize everything, and steal it that way. it's really no different in my opinion, nor does it make it more likely that camera totin' person is a thieving designer.

Nebraska Furniture Mart has one of these no camera signs up on their door here in KC. Nobody has ever asked me to stop taking photos, but I can remember seeing that sign thinking, "thats kind of odd".

I was at a luxury goods shop last year and the sales associate saw me snapping a pic. Rather than politely tell me it is against company policy, she actually motioned for the beefy security guard to come over and tell me to stop.

I get that policy is policy and employees don't always feel like they can give you permission to take photos in their store (because they might get in trouble or whatever). But I think there's a right way to communicate this to customers and an absolutely rude way.

kdkaboom - you don't agree with having sympathy? And I do almost agree with you, it is almost no different if a thieving designer has the skill and will put the effort in to memorising everything. (Bar the skill and the effort).

Maybe most people aren't doing that. Maybe one is?

I also thought the policy was silly. Until I met someone who flat out stated that she decorated her home by taking pictures of what she liked and taking them to her local "guy" to have him whip up duplicates. It takes all kinds, eh.

Funny. I know this used to be the policy in most bridal gown stores... they didn't want you to go take the photo to your Aunt Agnes and have her sew your dream gown on the cheap.

Now, my friends say they practically encourage photography at the gown stores. I imagine they have less fear of anyone having an Aunt Agnes who can actually sew.

My point is.... at a clothing store it seems absolutely legitimate.
At a furniture/ bedding store... of course you want to run it by someone before you buy!! I know I took a photo of my credenza and that's what sealed the deal for me... I kept looking at the photo - loving the credenza and finally called them and purchased it over the phone so no one else could snap it up! (one of a kind antique)

It does help if you ask first... especially if you explain your hubby has strong opinions on desks or something. People are more likely to bend the rules if you approach them in need.

spinsLPs link is very interesting....If I'm interpreting it correctly, it says that if a privately owned store is open to the public, such as in a shopping mall, then its considered a public space and pictures can be taken accordingly. Your photograph is not a violation of their trade secrets. Plus, any action taken against the photographer (e.g., threats, confiscation of the camera) is a violation of civil liberties. I'm no lawyer, and most times it's probably not worth the argument with the sales associate, but it's a good thing to have in your back pocket.

Pinkberry has a big no camera sticker right as you enter the store

Tell them you work for a magazine and you're scouting for products. I actually did work at a magazine and did this at every store I went in to (I actually was taking them for editorial, so it wasn't a lie). When people hear editorial, all of a sudden it's a different story! While I don't advocate lying...at least it would probably work if you really did need it to show your friend/husband. If you really are stealing ideas...don't say I told you to do this! ;-)

Shop elsewhere. I often take pics to bring home to show the DW. Plus, when you're shopping, things run together. Pictures help me remember.

The whole stolen idea is stoopid! Think about catalogs. Stores send thousands of pictures out every day.

The reason big box stores do it is because of "comp shops."
For example Target sends people to Walmart with a list of items that have to be found in their store... you have to write the price down and take it back to Target, where their price is then adjusted to match competitively.
It used to be done old school with a pen and paper, but is now being done with cameras... even if we all think it's stupid, that's typically why such rules are in place.

One time a few months ago I wanted to buy a sweatshirt for our daughter when I was at the Grand Canyon and she was in CA. With no chance to return the item if I guessed wrong about what she'd like, we chose to try "shopping by cell phone." In a few quick minutes she could browse the 3-5 sweatshirts I suggested and sent pictures of. She quickly choose one, and we had a purchase both of us were happy with. Just like that.

Recently I was browsing in a bath products store on the Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica. Happily soaking up the smells and colors of the place, I wanted to take a simple picture to record the moment...just because.

A clerk swept up to me in full Officer Johnson mode, "NO PHOTOS IN HERE."

I just wanted a simple, beautiful picture of the many colors of soap. For fun.

She would not listen. She was probably trained that listening to the customer is not wise. So wrong.

Officer Johnson mode is SO short-sighted and completely misses the long-term value of a single customer, and the referral business they can provide. Or not.

It was such a simple, innocent moment. Officer Johnson saved the day, and lost a customer, for life.

I believe this is true of most stores everywhere and for a long time. I remember having problems with it 15 years ago in college working on projects. Also, when I worked in product development for a large chain, I always had to call ahead and set up time with the manager to know I was coming to a store to take pictures. Simply telling the manager there (hey ... I made these products ... we just need reference of them on display) and flashing my ID didn't fly. And incidentally, I completely understand (and agree) with the no pictures policy. Too many stores knock others off. Anything that makes it more of a hassle to do, I'm all for.

my friend was visiting from out of town and got kicked out of a bookstore for taking pictures of me sitting on a stool. They also checked to make sure we deleted ALL of the pictures- literally made up go through the whole thing three times.

Retail espionage. And Stabucks won't allow it, for example, because they are afraid of lawsuits that have something to do with signed model releases or some other nonsense. Such is life in AmeriCo. these days.

Here's a funny example. I was sent to Fashion Island in Newport Beach to take pictures of a client's (for advertising and portfolios) tile, stonework and concrete installations all over the (outdoor) shopping center. After securing the necessary permit from the mall's admin office, I had the camera set up on a tripod to shoot a large floor medallion situated outside one of the department stores there. The camera was clearly pointed at a 45 degree angle downward, but the owner of a Bose Speaker store nearby came charging outside yelling at me, "YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE A PICTURE OF THE FRONT OF MY STORE!" I just looked at the guy and pointed at the floor, saying "I'm taking a picture of THAT." He was like, "oh." and turned around and said nothing, walking away.

what. Everrr..

Clickchick, I am afraid you are SO not correct about them loosening up at bridal stores. I'm currently in the midst of wedding planning as well as being a friend's maid of honor, and they NEVER allow pictures unless it is a big warehouse discount type place where you could run around with the dress on your head for all they care.

As for the store policies... honestly if your design is so cutting edge that you're worried people will steal the display idea... won't you be taking it down soon anyway, likely before they have theirs up? Take Anthropologie displays-- often brilliant, always short-lived. I do understand about the comp shop thing, but as was pointed out, you really don't need a camera for that.

I get so depressed by how bad customer service has become... this is just one more example.

Competitive stores scout each other all the time for ideas, product and price points. The goods in big box stores are almost always the same or similar. Snapping away in this situation should be allowed. When there is a boutique with original designs, I can understand this to a point. Most of these will have a tear sheet with specs for you. If they don't, asking permission first is always a good idea.

I also find it funny about Pinkberry's sign about no photography. Everyone has ripped that store off with that policy. Go figure it out, the NO PHOTO policy doesn't work!

I work in retail and I know that this is not just about trade secrets. The bigger issue is of people "casing the joint". Someone broke into the store next to us last year and the police found pics of displays, exit doors and security cameras etc on their cell phones. We were warned by THE POLICE not to let anyone take pictures in the store. In a store you can't have a policy that just applies to shady looking people.

I was booted out of Woolworth's in downtown San Jose in the early 80's for taking a couple of photos - I mean, did they think I was going to steal their fabulous display ideas?? I was just doing a photo course at San Jose State U. but they didn't care.

One good story and one bad:

When I was in photography school I did a project about dioramas and wanted to shoot at the Smithsonian... I was totally stressed but decided to wing it. I asked the info desk if it was ok and the security guard practically helped me set up my tripod and 4x5 camera. They were SO nice, really surprisingly so.

Last year I went to a wedding that wouldn't allow photography! It made me dislike the bride and groom (so not celebrities or anything). I know it's the official photographer's directive but I found it so rude. Way to make the day relaxed and fun.

I'm glad to know more about the law on this subject though, I'm going to photograph with impunity now! thanks!

What's funny about pinkberry is that they ripped the 'idea' off from another story.

marie516, my wife was able to take photos as the two places she tried on dresses and I can assure you that she did not get a bargain. :P

noya, why would you let them do that? i'd have told them to call the cops if they wanted to but that i was leaving with my photos.

I was in the Soho Prada several months back. I was snapping some pictures with my camera phone. A security guard came over and told me very sternly that I had to put my camera phone away.

I replied just as sternly--
"No I won't. I'm going to take pictures... It's your move."

He asked me once more, less stern and a little befuddled. I ignored him, took my pictures and when I was done, I went on with my business.

Maybe I was rude, but their policy was rude first. I'm a regular shopper there. I'm wearing Prada shoes as I type this.

Sometimes you have to call people's bluff.

Ask yourself, what are they really going to do? Do you think they'll actually tackle you and wrestle your camera away? No, of course not.

oops "story" = "store" in my post.

Sometimes I think that it isn't even necessarily a policy per se; I think that there is some weird knee-jerk reaction that you must be "up to something" when taking pictures and therefore must be stopped.

Honestly, how many stores, shops, whatever, actually have something unique? What I also love is that I know of a friend who was stopped from taking pics of a desk at Target (to show DSO) and went home found the picture on the internet on the Target website......

I work in retail and have to tell people all the time not to take pictures.... Not for "idea theft" reasons but for store security reasons! And customers get mad at us for doing it, but it's not the sales associates policy its the STORES policy. So, there really isn't a reason to get mad at the workers....

But, with that said, I'm a fashion merchandising major and have to sneak pics in at stores for assignments..... I just wear my school i.d. and hope that no one catches me!

I tell them to stop harassing me, and ask whether they plan on forcibly removing me in order to enforce their policy.

When I was younger I used to go into high end furniture stores all the time and take pictures. I would go up to the front desk and tell them I was a design student and ask their permission. I was never forbidden to take pics, so this whole idea seems stupid to me. But at the same time I feel this anti-photo stance came from so many people stealing images from sites and actual stores for ebay-ing and the like.

Overall, I think theft of ideas is going to happen whether stores like it or not. In the meantime they truly are preventing people from using technology to show friends and family great pieces thereby generating more business for themselves.

ALL major retail stores have a policy against photography. I've been in retail, design, product development for 30 years, and I can assure you retailers have every right to escort you off the property.

If your so hot to take a shot to share with aunt margret...go online.

If you really have a legitimate need, be upfront, contact corporate, contact store management. Otherwise I have no sympathy....none. And yes, you can be forcibly removed if you decline requests to leave. It's called the police...

Theft of intellectual property is rampant. And enforcing it is not "a bluff".

I asked the owner of Beacon Closet- a second hand store in Brooklyn, if I could take a picture of one of the million of dresses- I wanted to show it to the film director I worked with. He sternly said no.
I have no idea how this could have hurt his business...

What did you do before? Squat! The same reason it's so easy now is the same reason they want to restrict it. It might make making decisions easier, or blog-posting, but I'm not going to complain about this rule, I don't think it's boycott-worthy. I mean, the pouting and the begging, the attitudes. Wow.

This just happened to my friend and I at the Sandwich, IL antiques fair. There were these hideous seashell sconces that were at one booth. My friend knew of someone who would love them. She asked me for my camera so that she could take a picture to send to her friend.

The woman running the booth promptly told her that there was no photography allowed because these were pieces made by an 'artist'. My friend replied even if it's for someone who would be interested in purchasing? The booth lady replied 'yes, and we don't ship' to end the debate before it started.

The whole thing seemed so insane considering the overall lack of quality and originality in the pieces in the first place. I mean, these weren't the first objects somebody decorated with seashells?!?!?

I had that experience at an Urban Outfitters of all places. I guess you can check the website for some of these chains, but geez, what a pain.

Excellent, chris (nyc)!

I was just snapping pics of hampers in BB&B to email to my mother; if anyone had asked me to stop, I was ready to say, "No, thank you!"

Pretending to not speak English is also effective.

Seriously, if they want to throw me out of their store, they're welcome to take that road. I spent $500 that day, but if they had wanted to, they could have -prevented- me from doing so..

And retail folks, seriously: shut up! I was once a retail manager, and the notion of having a big showdown with a customer over their camera is just, you know, hilarious to me. If you have time for such crap, you might want to sit down and reconsider your time management skills.

The Terra-istas are not coming to steal your store's precious secrets. Get a grip, you work in a shop, it's not that glamorous.

"If you have time for such crap, you might want to sit down and reconsider your time management skills."

What a weird thing to say. I have to say if I had a store, you'd be swiftly removed from it. Take your little handbag doggie and get out.

Apple Stores happily let you snap away... I have several times, and have confirmed with staff that it's OK.

This reminds me of the way my sister and my cousins and I used to entertain ourselves at the mall when we were in junior high and had no money. We'd go into Ross, hunt down clothing items to put together the wackiest outfit we could think up, and then snap pictures of each other in the fitting rooms.

I'm quite certain that it was against the store's policy, but the fitting room attendant never actually came inside the rooms so we got away with it. I understand now why they would have thrown us out if we'd gotten caught, since they would have seen us as disruptive in addition to violating the no photography rule, but it was really just a bit of innocent fun!

I work at a retail store and one of our sister stores across town got robbed similar to coyotbeck's story. Turns out that someone took one a camera that had a video function and set it in an inconspicuous spot across from the alarm box then tripped a alarm on one of the electronics display. They managed to get a perfect shot of an employee putting in the code and came back the next day a boosted a bunch of stuff from that display. They got caught by a security camera and the police managed to catch them (which is when they found the camera). So I know why the policy is in place for some retail stores in addition to the whole stealing of ideas thing. (I did though get yelled at at an Frys once so I agree it is obnoxious).

K T G, I don't think you grasp the concept of 'sales'. If one needs to lord petty authority over total strangers, there's always the Department of Parking and Traffic..oh yeah, you could also try the airport..those poly uniforms are so sexy..

I'd love to hear the police giggle at your indignant phone call, though!

" Last year I went to a wedding that wouldn't allow photography! It made me dislike the bride and groom (so not celebrities or anything). I know it's the official photographer's directive but I found it so rude. Way to make the day relaxed and fun. "

Come on... some churches don't allow flash photography... just like in a museum - there could be some centuries old art in there thank you very much! And sometimes the minister doesn't want the flash photography to disrupt the Ceremony. The sacrament of marriage is sacred you know.
Why blame the bride and groom? Unless they also barred photography at the reception.

On other side... I work part time at a portrait studio and some morons get their cameras out to take photos of the photo session. Talk about a blatant way to rip a business off. "No, I don't think I'll buy those pictures - we have them on our cell phone." Then whyda bring your precious sweetheart here in the first place?!?!?!?!?

As opposed to frightening "NO PHOTOGRAPHY" signage, why not simply instruct customers to speak to a salesperson if they wish to take a photo?
I encounter the no-photo policy in small boutiques quite often (where there is no visible security system, and everything in the store can be seen through giant front windows) - what's the point? They sell expensive goods and in my experience rarely provide take-home information, so isn't it reasonable that a photo just MIGHT aid in the decision-making process?

For Pete's sake, how difficult is it too politely ask a sales associate if it is okay to take a photo? More often than not, they'll oblige. In many instances they will be happy to provide you with a tear sheet. Trends come and go, but good manners are always in style.

@seaside: I've asked before when I was helping a client remodel a bathroom. I explained that I wanted the pictures for a client and they still wouldn't let me. Not to mention they did not have the tear sheet to provide me with it. So sometimes it doesn't work.

@post: even if you are in a store, you have to get permission to publish the photo's online. Especially if there is any money made anywhere associated with the picture. Unfortunately that is just general photographic practice. A release is always nice to have handy in that case too.

KTG, nobody is throwing attitude at you, you're the one splattering it everywhere. Chill the hell out.

Surferartchick: yes, you are correct. Sometimes it doesn't work. Lord knows I have been told "no" and that's okay. It's life. You just adjust your course and keep moving ahead.

Offerings from someone who has also worked retail. I understand fear of having your store robbed. The store I worked in was robbed - both times without the use of cameras. However, that's a reasonable concern.

Beyond that, I think the stealing of ideas can be done rather easily without the use of a camera - so why offend customers. It seems retailers have no proprietary interest in their business, just sef interest - egotism.

Thirdly, I think that it is reasonable to direct clients to your web site if photos are available of the product. However, if no photos are available it seems reasonable to EITHER let that client take a photo of a piece of furniture (or what have you) or offer (as the sales person) to take it yourself - if you are concerned with a possible theiving operation.

No harm. No foul.

No matter what, store employees CANNOT touch your photography equipment, cell phone or person.

I say snap away! I do it to other retailers. Other retailers do it to us. We aren't going to COPY it, we are going to "re-invent" it.

I appreciate great design they appreciate great design, we ALL appreciate great design.

If they get surly, pull out a small sketch pad and draw a quick doodle with notes, there isn't a thing they can do about it.

I worked at a store with a no/minimum photography rule and their justsification was to prevent lawsuits.

They were afraid someone would fake an accident and then have these pictures of displays or whatever, possibly altered, to help their case.

We had people fake accidents all the time when they thought the security cameras. You'd actually see people look around and then lay down on the floor and start screaming that they fell.

"We had people fake accidents all the time when they thought the security cameras weren't watching"

sorry, didn't finish my thought!

So, for the vast majority of you, if I was invited into your home, let's say for a party, and discreetly lit up a cigarette, you'd be totally okay if you caught me and I calmly explained that I just really needed one and in 5 quick puffs it would be out. No, you wouldn't appreciate that. But if a store has a posted policy against taking photos, you think they should bend their rules to accommodate you?

I think a lot of problems could be avoided just by having stores provide prints of the product or email photos with descriptions to any potential customers who request information. That is as important and helpful as providing swatches to aid people in making decisions on what to purchase.

It seems like most retailers would be willing to do that.

Oh I have two doozies on this. I was in Cockpit on bway and this tourist was there. She took a pic with her friend and the owner went bezerk! He insisted she delete the photo. She told him to go F him self and left.

The second one really pissed me off. I was at the outdoor market in chelsea and a friend of mine took a pic of a vendor. This vendor starter cursing at her really pissed. The next week, about ten of my friends all went back with our digital cameras and started taking tons of pictures of her booth. Man she was going crazy but it was worth the revenge!

People need to lighten up. If some designer wants to really steal a store concept, it would far to easy to do. Yelling at your customers is nuts!

Goodness people a rule is a rule...if a store has a rule, you should follow it (regardless of how rudely it is told to you). You don't have to agree or understand or speculate as to why or why not...you aren't entitled to do what you want. Whatever reason the store has it is their business. They shouldn't have to explain it to your or justify it. It is the same as "don't sit on the displays" or "no cell phones" or "no shirts no shoes, no service". If you dont' agree with a rule, don't shop there.

They ARE private properties, after all, when it comes down to it. When I had my studio/gallery, people came in through the door expecting all manner of "courtesies". One woman came in and dmeanded change for the parking meter with her $20 bill, when I told her I don't even have cash on the premises, she got all weird. If someone came in and started snapping away without even extending the courtesy of asking or explainging first, I'd find it quite off-putting.

On the other side of the token, I have taken a quick pic or two at Ikea to go back to work and discuss a particular item for the office.

But going in and snapping away is just asking for it. All about respect. More people should try it. 8^)

I am loving this debate!

A few clarifying items:

1. There is/was no call to be rude. Like I said, one can be perfectly polite in declining to submit to an unreasonable request, it is NOT inherently rude. In both examples, we would have been happy to have left and NOT spent any more money there, if they had requested, and we all would have lived happily ever after. I am loathe to be rude to folks in stores; I was there, I get the daily grind and the whims of the corporate management.

2. Again, this is a STORE. Where you SELL THINGS. It is not the bank, Intel headquarters, the daycare center, the armory, the movie theater, the locker room, or the White House. The sole purpose of a store is to entice you in, to offer you pretty things to have and to share, and maybe, if they're both lucky, to sell you a pretty thing for some of your hard-earned money. It is not doing you a favor by allowing you in, it is not your duty to be good little consumers/supplicants and obey all directives given until you can leave your required offering at the alter.

3. There is a Luddite impulse mixed in with the creeping authoritarian thing here, too. It's a -camera-, ooh, ah, danger..We used to see signs banning cellphones at gas stations, the same impulse at work. Think about it, if someone called you on your mobile device in a store, would you rush over to ask a clerk if it was okay to use it there first, as per their policy? If you checked your email in the dressing room, would you pause to ask someone if they approved of the use of PGP encryption? If a store put up a sign reading NO REMOTE CAR ALARM KEYFOBS ALLOWED would you stop and search your pockets at the door? Of course you would not. Using personal devices is just part of 21st century life, it takes some folks longer to catch up, but they do. People are not going to use your typewriter because you aren't comfortable with their iPhone. And they shouldn't, really.

4. Corporate display espionage, well, maybe it does happen. But..again..STORE. If customers must be ejected because they MIGHT be designer moles of some sort, well..where do you stop with the paranoia? If I come in in a red polo shirt, perish the thought, are you going to have Joe the guard bum-rush me out the back because I might work at Target? If I have a conversation with another shopper about the merchandising display, will you throw a tarp over it real quick to protect your concepts? I put it to you that this is not rational.

5. It's a camera. Not a cigarette. It's not going to sicken you, it's not going to stain you, it's not more addictive than crack. Cameras are built into everything. The store has, at any given time, a half-dozen cameras trained on you. Do you feel violated? Well, DO you?

the policy in the high end stores protects the privacy and anonymity of other shoppers. shopping is everybody's personal business, as eating in the restaurant or enjoying the the show. It's simply provides the comfort and enjoyment of shopping for another patrons. You all so focused on your own needs, forgetting that other people are around who might prefer not to be part of display, idea, shoe-pile or whatever pictures you are taken. I often take pictures of merchandise for some of my clients. I ask to see manager ahead , explain my mission, indicate the items of my interest and politely ask if I can take things on loan to show my client or take a pictures of them for the same purpose. NEVER had a problem. Ignorance is never welcoming. In order to be respected you should respect the culture of the place you are in and other people around you.

cigarettes cause lung cancer.
photography does not.

put your cigarette or
get out of my house!

-michael

Stores want to sell something, customers want to see what they buy, maybe even show it to someone or look at it again. If they have a catalog that I can take with me, then I don't need a picture, otherwise I might like one.
How many stores have you read about on blogs (including this one), with pictures, and thought oh that looks like a cool place, I'll go check it out. I'm sure the advertising wouldn't work so well without any photographies.
I do have a big problem with people threatening you for taking a picture in a STORE. Friendliness is underrated. If someone asks nicely, I'll probably comply, if not, I'll probably just leave, never come back, never buy anything and tell my friends.

seriously, you people need to recalibrate your own fucking rules. idiots.

Many years ago (12?) I was taking a photo of a sofa in the deep bowels of an Ikea in Toronto --the store was out of catalogs and I wanted to think about making the purchase for a day or so. Clerk ran over to me and put her hand in front of my camera and said "NO PICTURES NO PHOTOS NO NO". I think I just stared at her and backed away slowly.

we can hope that the sense of entitledment displayed by some of these posts is met by equally extended good manners.

oops...that good manners are paired with it, or extend forth more stridently that is.

We are not entitled to everything. It is one thing to take a photo to buy something. It is another to take one to steal the idea. I have done both. I had also worked in retail for years and have had our ideas ripped off exactly and you can not do that from memory. Stores are not museums and are there to sell. It is perfectly understandable that a store/artist/corporation controls who is taking images of their property/store. The first time this happens to any of the people that say "get a grip" they will be unhappy too.

At the end of the day if someone wants to steal a design or break into the store banning blatant photography isn't going to stop them.

I worked in retail several years ago. The no camera policy had little to do with corporate espionage and more to do with theft. Apparently people will take pictures of the things that they want and give those photos to people who can shoplift those items.

This wouldn't apply to furniture but after finding hundreds of security tags removed from clothes and stuffed into the pockets of other items around the store, I believe that this is the case for apparel shops. Pinkberry is probably a prime target for this kind of set up.

It's like in Bad Santa... remember the midget's girlfriend?

I agree that salespeople/storeowners could be more polite sometimes when asking you not to take photos, but holy cow ... the entitlement and obnoxiousness of some of these posters here really sickens me.

There's that word again.. Whence entitlement? Please explain.

Perhaps it has not come up where some live, but for some of us, it's rather an issue:

http://gothamist.com/2008/06/11/coney_island_photog.php

http://askthephotographer.com/2008/03/15/uk-photographers-rights-threatened/

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/06/the_war_on_phot.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Wolf

etc.. I don't recall this ever being an issue before the 21st century. You are being photographed/videotaped in these stores, you know. By the stores. It's baffling to me that when the company does it, it's just fine, but an individual is stealing or violating privacy or being otherwise disruptive.

Seriously, can someone explain this position?

Neutopian - no, no one can explain it legally.

Because you cannot legally prevent photography inside a shop that is open to the public.

You can *pretend* that it's not allowed, but when it comes down to it? The only thing they can do is not allow you to purchase an item. They may NOT throw you out. They may not touch you. They may not touch your camera.

Because legally? It's not a crime. If they touch you or your stuff, it's battery, and they're in pretty big trouble.

So shoot away. Store policies cannot actually prevent it - but they assume you don't know that.

Wow. So many comments on this topic! I wonder if geography has something to do with the no photo policy being enforced? Are retailers more prone to paranoia on this subject in urban areas with higher crime rates?

I live (and shop) in Marin County, CA, just north of San Francisco, I am also a professional photographer and rarely without my camera. I have photographed my daughter in stores ranging from Nordstrom to Target to local boutiques. Not once has anyone asked me to stop taking photographs (and I am using a digital SLR, usually with an external flash attached. Not the least bit stealthy!) I wonder if I were doing the same thing in San Francisco or New York or any other large city, if I would be approached and asked to stop? Or are the stores more tolerant because it is obvious I am taking photos of my toddler being cute/funny, etc.?

Neutopia....I take it you are no longer in retail. I'd fire you for your attitude alone. Not to mention your smart a@@ mouth.

"And retail folks, seriously: shut up! I was once a retail manager, and the notion of having a big showdown with a customer over their camera is just, you know, hilarious to me. If you have time for such crap, you might want to sit down and reconsider your time management skills.

The Terra-istas are not coming to steal your store's precious secrets. Get a grip, you work in a shop, it's not that glamorous."

Let me guess....your now a psychologist...desperately in need of some help.

And Brenjay...they can and will throw you out. It's not "public property" in that sense. Just as restaurants can and do refuse service so can retail establishments.
They can also call the police to escort you out if you refuse to go peacefully.

It's a public "place" not public property, including everything in the store. They have the right to protect their property. If you don't like their policies, no one is forcing you to shop there. I don't object to the photo ban, I just don't like how rudely some stores enforce it. Some people just don't know they can't take pictures.

hdtex - you're wrong. And if you're a store owner, I'd strongly advise that you check your facts before touching anyone taking pictures in your store. It could get you into big trouble - seriously.

Taking pictures isn't illegal inside a store. You see, when a person opens up their property to the public, they give up certain rights - the big one they give up is privacy. They give up their right to privacy because they've invited the public into their space. Once you give up that right, you can't take it back. It's gone, store policy notwithstanding.

You are correct that if it were inside your house, you would have a right to privacy, and I could get thrown out for taking pictures there. But if I stood on the curb (public place) and took pictures of the outside of your house, that would be okay.

The bottom line is this - you have no right to privacy in any place you expose to the public.

So yeah, you can ask people not to take pictures, but ultimately, it's not illegal, and you can't prevent it. All you can do is ask them to leave or not sell them stuff. And you absolutely cannot touch them until/unless they start to do something illegal or actively disruptive.

It's their store and their policy. Your recommendation to act like a brat if they approach you to stop taking pictures is the issue, because you don't sound like someone with any class about it.

There seems to be a gray area here, where people who want to take pictures just don't see what the big deal is, and want to make shop-owners or their employees into petty harassers and/or label the whole thing some luddite paranoia conspiracy against people who just like to show their friends a dress or a table they saw when they were out. For a perfectly innocent act of taking a picture, you're pulling up a lot of anger about being told you can't in this specific situation, like you've been hurt by it. You just don't sound like you can cope in society.

And with all the trolling, and the articles about terrorism are the epitome of straw men.

Private property is private property. Inviting the public in to browse or buy is an option they have, and throwing them out if they disagree with the policies with strong language and attitude is another option they have.

You can't sit in McDonald's all day reading books if you don't buy anything, even if all the seats are empty. You might be able to use the bathroom because there's no host to prevent you from making your way inside, but they'd rather not open themselves as a public toilet. "What's the harm?" if you do it? It entitles you to something they don't want you to do. Period. Turning a patrons-only restroom in a public restaurant into a public bathroom for anyone makes - messier bathrooms, more money spent cleaning it, higher costs of meals or cost-cutting elsewhere, longer lines for patrons. Making an exception for you, or you making an exception for yourself, which is the real issue, is classic entitlement.

It's like you read a sign and say well, that doesn't mean me, I'm a special circumstance, I'm just one person, I won't hurt anything, I have a better reason than most people, I know all the right things to say to bitch my way out of a complaint, (and sound like you're ready to do it at the drop of a dime), and I get to do whatever I want and they can't stop me. What about that ready list of strategies against store clerks doesn't scream "entitled"? They don't have to tell you why you can't take a picture either. It's their prerogative to open shop on their terms. They're not that glamorous? Tolerating that crap is not compulsory.

This from the one that told me to "Take your little handbag doggie and get out", yes? Hi KTG, you are a special person and I love you! :)

Just for you, dear gentle, dignified creature, I present..

*Drumroll!*

http://neutopian.com/temp/080701_155847.jpg
http://neutopian.com/temp/080701_155903.jpg
http://neutopian.com/temp/080701_155854.jpg

Do what you will.

(Both my Mom, who did buy this space-saver, and my hubby, who is a cop, think this whole thing is horribly funny, even if they wish I'd shut up already. So I will!)

I closing, I am a polite shopper and I am happy to leave if asked. I am also a rather tan, swarthy shopper, which means I have these unfortunate polite conversations far too often.

I wish you all the best, and look forward to next time.

This is a good article.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2005-12-29-camera-laws_x.htm

Basically, brenjay is right I think.

The General Rule
The general rule in the United States
is that anyone may take photographs
of whatever they want when they are
in a public place or places where they
have permission to take photographs.
Absent a specific legal prohibition
such as a statute or ordinance, you are
legally entitled to take photographs.
Examples of places that are traditionally
considered public are streets,
sidewalks, and public parks.
Property owners may legally prohibit
photography on their premises
but have no right to prohibit others
from photographing their property
from other locations. Whether you
need permission from property owners
to take photographs while on their
premises depends on the circumstances.
In most places, you may reasonably
assume that taking photographs
is allowed and that you do not
need explicit permission. However,
this is a judgment call and you should
request permission when the circumstances
suggest that the owner is likely
to object. In any case, when a property
owner tells you not to take photographs
while on the premises, you are
legally obligated to honor the request.

From:

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

If you like something you see and you can afford it .. then buy it!

If you can't afford something and still really want it, then remember where it is, save up and then buy it when you can afford it.

If it is too and expensive and you'd never be able to afford it ... then forget about.