apartment therapy changing the world, one room at a time

Hi Barrett,
My friend etslee had mentiond your situation and asked me if I can give you any comments about your moving to LV. I to have moved from SF to the land of milk and honey-LOL. Kidding a side it's quite trying at times and I know what you and your partner are going through. For similar reasons, a better job and a condo lead me here. I knew I could not afford owning a place in SF and I had to do something radical-move to Las Vegas! It was easier for me since a real estate sibling had sold me a place and helped me assimilate myself. I'm sure you did your homework in regards to where you would like to live. I suggest the following areas. Summerlin is nice and is one of the more afluent areas close to Red Rock. Henderson is a thriving new community that has definitely gone upscale. North Las Vegas has bigger new homes in sprawling communitites. All within 20 to 30 minutes drive from the strip. I'm sure there are other places but these come to my mind. It's a great beginning for both of you and I suggest having an open mind and not to compare SF to LV, Because it is not. I did-LOL that wasn't rational. LV is surreal at times and the people vary in attitude depending where they moved from. Very much a transcient town. I can count actual locals I meet. A lot of them have been kicked out from rising costs and are moving to Utah and Arizona. The modern movement is slowly catching on. Believe it or not you can actually find lofts popping in all sections of the city or suburbs. There's even a new community called Sullivan Square that is a close copy of brownstones and classical buildings similar to a Manhattan block in NY complete with cobblestone pavement. In the middle of the desert! Surreal I tell you. DWR, Ligne Roset, Knoll, West Elm and smaller modern design retail stores are here to start but still at the early stages of being accepted. There's a lot of seriuos ugly happening to homes since all they know are those huge monster mahogany furniture outlets such as Walker, RC Willey and similar stores. Quite the standard to anyone furnishing their mini mansions. I almost cried the first time I stepped in one of those stores looking for furniture. It hurt my eyes. When everything else fails there are Target stores all over the area. Thank goodness for sanity! Good luck and have a ball.

Today's my last day of "vacation" in lovely 103-degree Phoenix, AZ. Husband has promised that if I accidentally buy anything for the new place, it can live in his office until our lease starts. He has no idea what he's gotten himself into.

Wende,

As I'm always curious what you can get outside of SF, how is the rental market over in AZ? Thanks!

I've waited too late and now the airfares to Calgary are way high and all the charming yet inexpensive hotels in Banff are filled.

May be of interest: Netmagazines.com has subscription to "Decorating Spaces" for $3.60/yr, using coupon code DCMPS70P. Never heard of the mag but I ordered it. I've ordered from Netmags couple of times before and have always gotten my sub...
"Decorating Spaces
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HTH,
Stylin

Etslee -- It's really hard to compare the rental market in an "old city" like SF (high-density downtown core, established neighborhoods) and a "new city" like Phoenix (sprawl, minimal residential or retail downtown, few middle-class apartment dwellers).

Middle-class life (defined as "car unlikely to be stolen" and reasonably clean/maintained housing) starts at around $850 for a 1-BR (avg about 700 sq ft) and $1000 for a 2-BR (about 1000 sq ft). Architectural character adds 30% to 50% to the price, but distance from the central core gives you a much bigger place for the same price. So if you're in this ballpark, your rent will buy you choices like these:

--Small 2-BR in cute Southwestern-style complex in Scottsdale (about $1100).
--Small new apartment in "Copper Square," the effort to make downtown hip ($1000-ish, but bear in mind that downtown has no retail worth mentioning -- it's office towers and bars).
--Loft in Roosevelt Arts District with beaucoup style but little access to retail or restaurants ($1500+).
--Large 2-BR in the Central Ave./Camelback commercial area ($975-1300, depending on location and whether there's a garage). This is where stores and restaurants are.
--2-BR ranch with odd rehab efforts in same neck of the woods ($1000).
--3-BR ranch in better condition but dicier "historic" neighborhood near industrial tract ($1100).
--2-BR bungalow with extreme cuteness in Roosevelt Arts District, where houses are "nice" but you're a long, long way from retail or even coffee ($1300).
--3-BR/2-BA in suburban Surprise (as in "Surprise! That 20-mile commute takes 90 minutes at rush hour!" -- $1000 or so, depending on desperation of Bay Area investor who bought it last year). Suburban Queen Creek is even cheaper, and the map suggests why.

The kicker is that investors drove up condo prices, so it's now possible to rent a condo for less than the owner is paying to own it. That's what we're doing, as traditional apartment complexes in Phoenix tend to be scary (and that's coming from someone who lives in the Tenderloin!).

You can guess from my description that we went with the Central/Camelback corridor to maximize urban amenities.

Ewww - Central/Camelback - is it okay with the ASU students invading 9 months out of the year? That's why the restaurants & stores are there.

Those ASU students must get far afield. It's one heck of a haul to Tempe (we drove there for IKEA), and we didn't see any signs of student-focused apartment complexes near where we were looking.

Having taught college for lo! these 20 years, college students, I can deal with. Car thiefs, no. Suburban remoteness, no. And places like Scottsdale and Glendale are all boutique-y.

thiefs = thieves

me = brain destroyed by plane travel

Thanks Wende, certainly looks like you've done your homework.

As a current Tenderloin resident, I'm in love with the density but not the grittiness (car thieves included - my car was broken into twice when I parked on the street).

Well Wende,

It seems that I will be joining you in a move to the scorching heat of the desert. My partner and I have been offered jobs in Vegas and are moving in just over a week. We are not thrilled with the thought of living there, but we are going to be making 3-4 times our salaries here in SF and cutting our cost of living in half, so it really wasn't something we could pass up. It is funny since just over a year ago I was living in Tempe and working in Scottsdale ... and vowed that I would never go back that way after I had a taste of the SF climate and lifestyle. As always, life has a way of keeping things interesting whether you like it or not.

I wish you all the best of luck in Phoenix ... there are some good things to be found there. If anyone has any tips on Vegas living - areas to live in / stay away from, must sees away from the strip, or anything else helpful - I would greatly appreciate it. We have spent a total of three days there before, and that was mainly strip oriented.

Barrett

In a week. Wow.

Vegas has the same over-supply of investor-owned houses and condos, so look for deals as the owners cut one another's throats to get any money coming in to help with their mortgages.

Good luck, Barrett. It'll be fun -- even if we have to force it to be fun.

Barrett,

First off, sad to hear you will be leaving us. SF seems to be losing population slowly. I hope it doesn't lose the diversity we all love about it.

I do have a friend who recently moved to Vegas from SF and will likely have some good tips. I'll see if he's willing to comment here.

i've mentioned this before at the end of the sf 'where do you live' poll but i hope no one minds if i mention it again. i'm selling my home in philadelphia and moving to sf this fall. sorry wende and barrett but i'll try to balance you guys out. at least on sf apartment therapy. i'm partial to pacific heights but am open to anywhere safish with some stores and restaurants and etc. i'm fairly open to suggestions though. to those leaving sf, remember thoreau said something like, 'things work out best for those who make the best of how things turn out'.

Hi Obi,

I've enjoyed Laurel Heights, the Inner Richmond, and Noe Valley -- all very friendly walking neighborhoods, safe enough to take a nice stroll in the evening after dinner, and they all meet your requirements as far as shops/restarants. But they all have a very different, unique vibes. Hopefully you'll have time to explore the city a bit before you settle on a neighborhood to live in!

Obi -- If you haven't reviewed sfgate's description of neighborhoods, definitely do so, particularly for what shopping is available:
http://www.sfgate.com/traveler/guide/sf/neighborhoods/

There's a new Amazon maps application that does street-level photos of much of SF:
http://maps.a9.com/

My neighborhood-picking method starts with taking a map and marking on it all the places I know I'll go often (work or most likely work venues, businesses that loom large in my life, parks or whatever does it for you). Connect the dots. The center is roughly where you want to live, and then you balance cost/space/transit/ambience until you get the exact right spot.

Everyone I know who has moved to SF in the past 12 years has moved to Pacific Heights and spent their first two years there. It seems to be the only neighborhood anyone has ever heard of on the East Coast!

Most leave Pac Heights within two years. Although it has killer views and decent weather, it is perhaps the city's most bland neighborhood.

What are you looking for? Are you single or married? Do you have kids? Do you like dense neighborhoods where you can walk to amenities or are you happy to drive everywhere? How important is weather (each SF 'hood has its own climate)? How much space do you want and what is your budget? Where will you be working? Do you prefer to drive to work or take public transport? Do you dine out often, and if so, what kind of fare do you prefer?

oo guys thanks so much. i know the bay area a bit and i'm sure you're right when you all say it depends on who i am and what i want. i know there may be areas as good or better than pacific heights it's just from my experience of the city it's a good place to safely start if not stay in permanently. i'm a youthful 50ish single with small dog person semi retired part time dog walker looking for a family oriented mixed community in age background etc. by the way i spent the summer of '69 in berkeley and fell in love with the city. now i'm finally able to fulfill a lifelong dream. can't wait.

I think it all depends on what you mean by "community."

I lived in Pac Heights briefly when I first moved here and I did *not* get a sense of community at all. Not compared to where I live now, where neighbors of all ages know each others names and (gasp!) hang out together on a regular basis. We just had a party attended by 50+ neighbors to say goodbye to the manager of the local coffee house who is moving on after 5 years of running the same shop. And at our last neighborhood potluck there were more than 70 people over the course of the day, ages 6 months to 70.

Mine is *not* the right 'hood if you are an extremely private person and don't want your neighbors knowing about your life... Pac Heights is much, much better for that ;-)

Obi -- From your description of what you want, I'd be edging toward Noe Valley rather than Pacific Heights.

thanks mama chilanga and wende. you're both right. as much as i love your description of your area chilanga mama i am sort of private. like i love the idea of camping but not the reality... and wende i'm sure noe valley is closer to what i want but to get a toe in an area with apartment buildings seems easier from so far away. am i right in picturing noe valley is mostly just several units per building. i check craigs list every day to 'feel my way around' and i don't have to get serious yet. again thanks everyone for all your input it really helps.

I hear you on the camping, Obi!

What about finding a sublet for your first couple of months?

I can't think of huge apartment buildings in Noe Valley, but so many SF buildings are relatively low-rise that I'm not sure I'd notice.

The thing with larger buildings is that you really, really want to check out apartmentratings.com for the word on mold and maintenance.

While rents are creeping up (our apt will probably re-rent for $100 more than we're paying, possibly even more), it's not the market frenzy of the dot-com era. You can plan an apartment-hunting trip with a reasonable expectation of keeping your sanity and getting something done.

If you have a dog, that's going to control your life anyway. I'd scan CL for neighborhoods in your price range with lots of dog-friendly listings.

Yep, in my experience, if you have pets you are much better off going through a private landlord than with a management agency/large apt block. Most of them do not accept pets of any kind. There are several larger apt buildings on the Noe/Mission border (along Guerrero), but again doubt they'd take pets.

A short-term sublease might be a great idea, to help you get to know the neighborhoods a little. I live in the south part of Noe, close to Glen Park, and it is a great little neighborhood. It's close to the Mission, but quiet; lots of families and dogs, and easy access to downtown.

Bernal Heights is another great, diverse area with a great neighborhood vibe. Not a lot of apartment blocks, but tons of flats and smaller units, and a really pet-oriented attitude by most people. And you can't beat the views. I really can't recommend it enough.

Potrero Hill may have larger apartments because a lot of the construction is newer (post 60s apartment boom), but I can't make any specific recommendations there, i don't know it too too well.

Good luck on your move! Let us know which part of town you choose.

Oh yes and, one thing I'll say about Craigslist housing listings... if you search by ones that allow pets you'll come up with nothing. You have to look at the individual ads to see if pets are 'negotiable' or if 'small pets' are allowed. Most landlords won't click the 'pets ok' button because they want to have more control over what kind of pets they will allow. Some of them will budge if you ask about a small dog.

:)

Wow, thank you guys so much for your input - and Rom especially. I know better than to try to compare Vegas to SF (as there is really no comparison to SF), but it will be quite interesting. Its good to see that there is a modern movement happening there - I will never be caught dead in a McMansion!!!! I think the timing is good too - if I decide to stay for a while, it looks like the choices in condos will be quite plentiful, and after a year or two of renting, I will definitely be ready to buy.

Thanks again!!

Barrett

Obi, from your description of yourself (50ish, single, small dog, semi-retired looking for mixed-age, family oriented), you might find Pac Heights a little too young & Yuppie for your taste.

Also, as someone who just completed a painful apartment hunting experience, the rental market is tightening up. (Don't know when Wende last went-a-renting, but the rental market in the last 6 months has changed dramatically - enough so to make it to the front page of the NY Times) And a LOT of the rental product currently available in Pac Heights is low quality, over-priced crapola aimed at the don-t-know-any-better recent college graduate crowd. Beware.

My two cents: Laurel Heights (near Pac Heights, but less-upper income & young singles and more middle-income and families) Noe Valley (ditto). Both were already mentioned.

Also, there is Cole Valley, near Upper Haight, which is a very cute, family-oriented hood with plenty of shops, restaurants, etc. mixed with apartments, townhomes, Victorians and tree lined streets. And not too far from GG Park and close to Buena Vista Park. (great for doggies)

Inner Sunset & Inner Richmond are great, affordable places with a mix of families & singles with enough busy street life mixed with access to GG Park. Ditto for the Panhandle.

There is also Duboce Triangle, sandwiched between Lower Haight and the Castro. Its super convenient to lots of retail & nightlife, but sequestered enough to be nice and quiet on the residential streets. Plus, this little nabe has Duboce Park in the middle - a modest size park that seems ground zero for dog owners. (There is always someone with their pooch in Duboce Park.) I used to live there, so I'm a bit biased!

i thank each and every one of you who have mentioned neighborhoods for me to zero in on. it's reassuring to see that from my research of san francisco neighborhoods many of the areas you all mention are on my top ten list. so it seems you already have an excellent idea of what i'm looking for. i feel like i am a part of this apartment therapy community in sf and how comforting your willingness to help is to me. and though i hate to hog the thread any more ideas are greatly appreciated. i'll keep posting as my search continues if you all don't mind. again thank you all.

We're in Cole Valley, just one N-Judah stop away from Duboce Triangle.

Although it is a small micro-hood, I cannot say enough nice things about Duboce Triangle. There is a strong community of dog owners and the neighborhood is perhaps the best connected in terms of public transport with the N, J, K, L, M and F lines all within a couple of blocks.

Because of its proximity to both the Lower Haight and the Castro, it draws an interesting mix of hipsters, gays and families (with lots of people fitting into more than one category, of course!)

Since we're talking about places to live:
We just sold our flat in Noe Valley and we're not quite ready to make the next purchase, which means we're going back into the rental market.
It's so depressing!
We've seen a few nice places, but they're always crawling with people. I think we're supposed to do some kind of creepy wrestling match or something to show who's truly worthy of renting these places. I keep thinking that I'm getting to the point of desperation and I'm going to have to go with something that's maybe not so cute, but I just can't bring myself to live in a place that's full of shiny black marble and mirrors.
Anyone know of a 4-6 month sublease in a decent place? Two bedrooms, parking, and on the sunny side of the city? Am I asking too much?

this months arm chair vacation: catching each of the 8 featured Almodovar films @ the Catstro, wherein interiors star as boldly as the leading ladies.

also speaking of movies, altho i still look forward to seeing it, "the Edukators"
http://view.atdmt.com/DRC/iview/dvrtmlin0250000063drc/direct/01?click=http://servedby.advertising.com/click/site=0000693827/mnum=0000374205/optn=64?trg=
may have a Chorus Line to thank, when Bobby says of his "weird" adolescence: "...i'd walk into the middle of intersections, and direct traffic!...and, i'd break into houses...and re-arrange the furniture."

etslee,

lost would be the word, re: san francisco diversity.
another year of black and latino population loss, whereas oakland, latinos, 2005:
12 % gain.
another reason oakland is ruling again, why i miss it.

traditional SF platitudes,the mecca, a beacon, for freaks: so over, so pre '99, old story...hold my hair while i wretch a little pls girl!
i quit going out during the dotcom years, the SUV's parked down the middle of valencia street and "DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH?" yelled at french accented waitstaff @ ti couz crepery...

80's emblems:
neon protest stickers, $400 bedrroms. activists, artists aplenty, no problem, evrybody, evrybody...
late 90's: the dot commie seige and its too late backlash,
rampnat newbies, without qualm, jacking potential roommates, 800-1200 a room.

i've rejoined the artistic fringe, what's left of it /the smaller ranks of new kids, the early zeros anti heros...
not without embarrassment though...but am not apart of the let's take, uhm develop that is, lower telegraph okland...
so this trite oversimplification ensues , forgive me; i fled SF for oakland, santa rosa b4 the boom + bust, now aftr i'll probably "never leave sf" (neighbors old licence plate) for portland, las vegas, etc, LA, NYC...i just continue to watch my best friends make these leaps...the social hazard of knowing talented people....
sigh,
ok, enuff bitter bobby...i love SF too, still, forever, despite this blather...the paradise/oz tags still ring tru enough.

(so much that modplus will have localized content soon)

all i want is a double wide trailer in forestville eventually (house in mexico city or oaxaca, apts with friends or partner: sf yay area).

Sign me up for the house in Oaxaca. Don't think I could stand living in Mexico City again, though I'll always be a chilanga at heart.