Well it's officially steam hammer season (despite the unseasonably warm weather), and as soon as the cold snaps back in, many of us will look forward to waking up at all hours to the comforting sound of head bangingly loud pipes knocking and kicking themselves around as something, somewhere is screwed up.
But where?
In an effort to get to the bottom of this, Oliver has put together a special mixed audio clip of HIS OWN bedroom noise, and we went looking for answers...
While we found out what the problem is we found NO GOOD total solutions. The explanations below will totally fill you in on WHAT causes the noise and how to fix it if it's your radiator making the noise, but NO ONE seems to have any tips for addressing the problem in an apartment building, when you can't even get at the offending radiators and your super doesn't seem to care.
We open this post up for more help on the matter.
Over at Time Out, they have a list of Top Winter Mysteries Solved, and one of them is the steam hammer, however, their answer is not great:
Condensed water in a radiator gets thrashed around violently when a new head of steam rushes up, causing that hard-to-ignore death rattle. The solution: Place a shim under your radiator to tilt it, allowing the condensation to drain back into the boiler. Or move to a building with central heat.
Over at Parker Holsman in Chicago they got a little more specific and have more solutions:
The banging noises are caused by steam forcing its way through pockets of water. Three problems usually cause these banging noises:
1. People are trying to regulate heat by partially closing or opening the steam valve.
2. Radiator is tilted in the wrong direction.
3. There is a worn-out seat in the steam valve.
To correct these banging problems:
1. For problem one, it is important that radiators always be completely turned off or on. Any partial closing not only causes banging but also results in leakage, damaging your floors and the apartment below.
2. For problem two, a shim is usually placed under the two radiator feet fartherest away from the steam valve, tipping the radiator slightly toward the steam valve (about 5 degrees) to allow the condensed steam to drain back toward the boiler.
3. For problem three, professionl help will be required as the steam valve will have to be replaced.
Obviously, this is not going to help you in your apartment buildind, so we dug further... over at Terry Love's Message Board we found out this useful DIY tip for correcting your own radiator. This is as far as we got:
Just before the steam enters the radiator, it passes a shut off valve, and an expansion relief valve. Turn off the valve to that banging radiator, remove the expansion valve, and soak it overnight in vinegar. Rinse and replace it, and turn on the steam. Does it still bang, but not as bad? If so you have a hard water calcium deposit built up in the radiator, and it captures air in pockets that are irregularly being displaced by hot steam. You could try to clean the radiator with vinegar (or hard water calcium deposit remover [or muriatic acid]) but a wiser bet is to look for a replacement radiator.
Obviously no one has written about how to solve this problem if it's just a pipe running through your bedroom and the culprits are four floors below.
(First published 2006-01-11 - MGR)
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Ahh -- the sweet sounds of home!
Solution: bug the super and/or landlord relentlessly!
Are we sure it's the radiator causing the weird noises coming out of Oliver's bedroom?
I'm just sayin'...
Sounds like "Stomp". Poor Oliver. I would need earplugs and the cat would need valium. Good luck.
P(too) - you are a delight and joy. Perhaps you could check out Oliver's pipes and assist him in getting to the root of the problem....
Now you're talkin!
I have this problem! And maybe shimmed it the wrong way too so I guess I need this spelled out for me:
When he says "fartherest away from the steam valve" (??) does that mean I am supposed to shim under the feet near the pipe that connects to the floor or that silver thing on the other side that does not connect to the pipes in the floor? THANKS
Max and Oliver,
You haven't been reading your Brownstoner closely enough. Long thread on this very topic back in November. The likely culprit? Poor return drainage. When the steam turns into water and cools, if it doesn't drain out of the pipes fast enough, some physics-y stuff happens when the new hot steam collides with it that result in the sound of someone banging the radiator with a tire iron!
http://brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2005/11/front_page_foru_10.html
To answer James' question, the shims should go under the radiator feet opposite from the pipe that connects to the floor (which makes sense, since you want the radiator tilted towards that pipe so the steam, once condensed back to liquid, can go back down the pipe and get out of the way of the steam from the next cycle).
Ok, James Frey peaks my interest extremely. Sorry I don't know about radiators and I'm so not starstruck but I do know good books. So you're in the news again. Who cares. EXCELLENT WRITING. EXCELLENT WRITING. EXCELLENT WRITING....EXCELLENT WRITING...EXELLENT WRITING.
If you really like a good book, try 'The Lost Art of Steam Heating' by Dan Holoman. It's thoughourly informative about boilers and their related problems (the banging could be in the pipes instead of the radiators). His writing style makes it fun to read too. Really!
His #1 tip, turn down the pressure on the boiler! Its often too high and causes lots of problems, including steam hammer (the high pressure actually sucks water out of the boiler and into the pipes where the steam bangs it around).
jamiepup wrote extensively on The Radiator Problem (and fixes) two or three open threads ago . .
on the topic of radiator maintenance....
Every few years, one must "bleed" these monsters, and replace the valve. It's an easy job I hear, but I paid someone else to do it. Plumber/handyman.
Mine exploded this year. At 5am.
What I learned is that if the radiator furthest away from the boiler starts spraying water, there is a pressure regulation problem in the system. If the radiator closest to the boiler starts spraying steam and water, it's a valve problem. Or so it was when the guy downstairs from me had that problem.
Took the paint off the wall!
now, to do a search on this James Frey writer fellow . . . what do you recommend jmarieb?
... no no, leave it alone, it's MUSIC! Check out "The Radiator Musician" on the Julius Knipl site: http://www.hearingvoices.com/knipl.html
p.s.
LOL AT and Oliver for audiobloging this for our out-of-town friends!
Dave: I don't have a steam heater problem. But, are you serious about the book? Is this something that would be good as a gift for a homeowner who likes good books? I have friends in Putnam County, NY who have an old house and he is sort of a woodsman. What do you think?
o MY
the James Frey that Katie Couric is mad at
Margaret,
Thanks for the link! What a hoot - and a clang and a bang
when i moved into my place Oct '04 I spent many sleepless nights counting Big Bangs instead of sheep.
when the heat was turned off in Spring '05 I freaked from all the quiet and still could not zzzzzz.
now that the clonks, ticks and hisses are back I am happy and am finally getting a good night's sleep!
G:
I shouldn't have brought attention to Frey. If it isn't a hoax then he may want to just post like the rest of us. I regret this.
Sure is a good writer though.
jmarieb
quite right
let's just call it a hoax and leave it at that
Dan,
I am a trades instructor at the Grand Rapids Community College. I have been asked to teach a class on steam traps on the industrial level. Where can I get info on this topic? Your expertise would be greatly appreciated.
Ross of Specialty Plumbing
It makes me feel better to now know that I am not alone
My bedroom radiator sounds like a washing machine full of tire chains. But it's one of the ones that lives behing a flat metal cover that slides into a frame and has vents on the bottom. The radiator itself is attached to the wall and looks like a horizontal stack of saltines (if that makes any sense.) Anyone know how to bleed one of these? Feel free to email me, and thanks!
i don't have the banging but my 'tea kettle' hisses loudly and incessantly...anyone know of a cure?
I'm not sure what a shim is, but can I use anything heat resistant to tip the thing?
thanks
I'm with Kat, the clang and bang of my pipes is a cozy new york in the winter noise. I also have a weird affinity for it!
I have steam heat radiator question, perhaps you all can help!
I live in Chicago. North Shore. Awesome building! Charming studio with three distinct areas. Three radiators. All make noise, but that I can live with. Besides, I hate snow and like the warmth!
Problem--one of my radiators drips water onto the hardwood floor. I'm renting so I'm not so worried about the floor damage as if I did own, but what I am worried about is the radiator having major problems like my apartment flooding or the people below me being flooded or (God forbid!) an explosion or something.
Any ideas? Is this something to worry about?
Thanks!
L
L-
I had the same problem. Definitely get your super to look at it. Mine just needed new steam valve things on the outside. Took my super all of 5 minutes each radiator to fix it.
The guy below me was experiencing water damage that I didn't know about (another story for another day) but I also found out that, in similar circumstances, I would be responsible to pay for his repairs if my apt. causes the damages. I own in a co-op. As a renter this wouldn't be your problem, but your landlord would probably appreciate avoiding the situation!!
Just so y'all know: steam radiators are supposed to be flushed and drained at regular intervals. The super (a very good one) in my father's building told us years ago that since the radiators are steel, they fill up with rusty gunk and condensate, and air gets trapped in there, too. THAT'S what you're hearing when the damn things go 'bang'!
My condo is in a 1922 hi-rise. Most of us have removed the radiators but still have the capped off pipes running through our units. We still get the tire chain in a wash machine sounds?
What's up with that, if we don't even have radiators? (this is in Southern California and we just installed a brand new boiler a few months ago).
I'm with Marilyn Monroe up there/\! I like the comforting sound of radiator clanging.
My friend who only lives in new (crap) buildings was visiting when the radiator started to clang in my old apt. She jumped, looked really worried and hissed... "What IS that?"
I replied, "It means the heat is coming up!"
Now I own a condo in a 1949 building, and while we still have boiler heat, the radiators don't have steam valves so we don't get any clanging. (I guess it's radiant heat then?)
Now that we have standing snow (Denver here) Every once in a while (once a week) I hear some sort of clang/release.
Anyway, I finally learned that one should 'bleed' the radiators EVERY COUPLE WEEKS during the winter months to let the air out of the coils so that the hot water can flow properly. Just go to the hardware store (the neighborhood kind, not home Depot - they won't know what you're talking about) and ask for a radiator key. It's about .75 cents. There's a little insert on the radiator - the side opposite of the on/off valve - turn the key and listen to all the air hiss out... have an old towel handy and wait for the water to spew out - then turn the key back and you're done.
This may stop some of the clanging if water is trying to force it's way pass air pockets.
We suffered from the clangs & bangs every winter until we saw an episode of "This Old House" where they fixed the problem by installing water hammer arrestors. The one we have is manufactured by Sioux Chief Manufacturing. Simple fix, cheap to have installed & haven't had the problem since.
http://www.siouxchief.com/Frm_MS.cfm
In the last place I lived in, the head of my bed was along the wall where the hot water heating pipes lived. When the heat came on, they made a loud KA-CHUNK like a giant toaster. I often dreamt of breakfast.
In my current 1926 place, I've also got hot water heating that bonks and bangs. Some of the noises sound like dripping, but I know it's only the pipes ticking. Problem is, my landlady (who is conscientious [sp] to a neurotic degree, bless her) insists (insists!) water is dripping through the walls even though a contractor looked inside her ceiling--below my floor--and it's dry as a bone. She's a lovely woman, but she's driving me mental and may yet start tearing holes in my bedroom wall. She is hysterical about the idea of even the barest speck of mould growing anywhere in the house.
clanging and hissing of radiators is a warm childhood memory for me. it's usually the last steam of the night and the first in the morning that brings it all on.
however if you're hot and bothered in the bedroom like oliver, would closing the valves off stop the noise ? just pile on the comforter and stay warm.
just to clarify -- steam radiators don't need to be bled, but hot water heaters do. you can tell the difference by the number of connected pipes. hot water heaters have 2, while steam radiators have one. you can replace the steam valve yourself, just unscrew it from the side, and bring it to your hardware store to replace it. the other issue (as some poster mentioned), is that the boiler also needs to be flushed annually, the return valves on the main pipes for steam (down by the boiler) may also need to be replaced (every 5 years or so). i have just learned all this amazing knowledge, so I thought I'd share it with you all! And, a shim is a little piece of wood, which you can get in pre-cut packs. mainly, get your landlords to get a capable steam heat plumber -- not just a regular plumber.
Help! My husband decided the our gas boiler? - heater needed more water as the low water cut off was on. He put to much water in the thing and when I woke up ther was water on the kitchen floor. Then he took out water. Then he put in water. Now the thing is banging so hard I think it is going to explode. He doesn't know how to fix it. What do I do? I don't know anything about this stuff. I know one end has a turnoff knob and the other end has that steam (hissing) valve thing. How do I fix this?? I have radiators upstairs and baseboard downstairs. HELP!
I'm having problems with noisy radiators (a banging sound) someone told me they need to be bled, how do I do this? And also my furnace is not staying lit, it keeps shutting on and off and now it's completely off. What do I do?
what do i do for my steam radiator that won't turn off! the knob it shut as tight as possible but steam is still coming through creating banging!! i'd rather be cold than hear that hammering.
If a I turn off both the incoming and outgoing water valve in radiator and still the water knocking sound is present , the problem is with the pipe line , is it correct?
All the problems with steam piping hammer noise are related to near boiler piping. So far i so very few properly done installations. If near boiler piping is done without mistakes, steam system works absolutely quet. Also steam systems must be balansed and properly controlled for proper heat distribution troughout the heating system.
I'm really late to the party here, but i feel everyone's pain. I accidentally over filled the water in the heater. (I live in a building my dad owns so I have to make sure things like this are cared for) It's oil powered steam heat converted from an old coal furnace. The one radiator in my living room doesn't even work and we have no way to figure out why. Anyway I over-filled the water in the steam heater and now it's like somebody is BANGING against the radiators with tire irons. Add to that the creepy steam powered tea kettle whistle and subtract sleep and you have my life for the past few days.
After much stress, I fixed my problem! I will post my solutions here to help those in need, as I was.
I own a 1920's duplex here in Maine with 2 furnaces, one oil, one brand new Weil McLain natural gas, and both units running of single-pipe steam heat. On our new furnace, the water hammer woke up the whole house until I fixed it. Here's I finally did it:
1) I lowered the amount of water in the furnace. When installed, the furnace was 100% full of water, as you can tell by a glass tube on the side. At the top of of this glass tube is a knob that I'm assuming regulates the amount of "safety auto-fill" water that is added to the system to avoid it from firing without water. This was the last thing I did and it seemed to be the one answer. I also:
2) Lowered the PSI from 9 (max) when it was installed to 0.5, (minimum). That is plenty of pressure. With higher pressure and too much water, there is loud hissing from the air valves on each radiator, and several leaks from the radiators.
3) I inclined each radiator toward the return pipe, as you have read in other posts.
4) I replaced all the air valves on the radiators, as they were nearly all clogged, including two in the basement by the furnace which were clogged from years of use.
5) I made sure each radiator "knob" was all the way open or all the way closed.
6) I drained or "flushed" the water from the system by opening a garden-hose-like faucet on the radiator itself, into 4-5 buckets worth. There was a lot of fine black silty sediment from years of no cleaning.
I left the heat at 68 last night and NO water hammers. Previously, the water hammers sounded like someone banging on the radiators with a sledge hammer, repeatedly. There were a few nearly silent noises of expansions of metal (it sounded to me), but nothing that will wake my tenants or me up.
After reading online for days, I thought I was going to have to live with water hammers. Thankfully, my problem is solved! Best of luck to all of you!
Well, I see this thread is a little old, but nevertheless, I do have a couple of comments on Patrick Maine's post. Please forgive me if I belabour the obvious, but a couple of statements worried me.
Patrick said, "When installed, the furnace was 100% full of water, as you can tell by a glass tube on the side. At the top of of this glass tube is a knob that I'm assuming regulates the amount of "safety auto-fill" water that is added to the system to avoid it from firing without water.'
Patrick, I am assuming that you are referring to the knob on the stem that protrudes from the top fitting of the glass tube (generally referred to as a "sight glass"), This knob is very important, but it DOES NOT regulate anything. In conjunction with the similar knob at the bottom fitting of the sight glass, it opens and closes the valve connecting the sight glass to the interior of the boiler.
Closing these two valves isolates the sight glass from the interior of the boiler, allowing the glass tube to be removed for cleaning or replacement without having to drain the boiler. Both valves MUST be fully open at all other times to allow the sight tube to show you the level of water in the boiler. If either of the valves at the sight glass fittings is closed, you are "flying blind," and do not know the actual water level inside the boiler.
With both sight glass valves open, the water level in the sight tube is the same as the water level inside the boiler. There should be some kind of mark on the boiler indicating the proper water level for optimum performance. On the ancient Scotch Boiler formerly in my 8-unit apartment building there was a row of punch marks on the boiler tube plate inside the cast iron door of the firebox indicating the optimum water level. There should be no reason to deviate from this design water level.
Too high a water level risks sending liquid water up onto the steam pipes in the building and providing insufficient volume for efficient steam generation above the water level, while too low a water level risks overheating the uppermost tubes, causing stress and damage to the boiler.
Depending upon its vintage, your boiler may rely on manual water level control or it may have an automatic water level control valve. The former has the advantage that you will promptly become aware of any abnormal loss of water due to leakage inside the building. It has the disadvantage of requiring frequent checking of the water level in the sight glass and manual replenishing of lost water. Automatic water control valves maintain the water level for you but leave you unaware of excessive water loss due to leaks inside the building.
With or without an automatic water level control valve, you must have a low water cutoff device that prevents firing if for any reason the water level falls below the minimum safe level.
Incidentally, did you ever determine why the boiler was 100% full of water upon installation? Something was very wrong and it could have been due to incompetent installers or due to a defective automatic fill valve.
My second comment is regarding your statement, "6) I drained or "flushed" the water from the system by opening a garden-hose-like faucet on the radiator itself, into 4-5 buckets worth. There was a lot of fine black silty sediment from years of no cleaning."
This sediment is normal, especially in older systems. "Blowdown of the boiler, i.e., opening a valve at the bottom of the boiler and especially a valve directly at the bottom of the low water cutoff, should be a routine maintenance item performed whenever you are in the boiler room and probably not less frequently than monthly. Open the blowdown valve(s) and close them only when clear water flows. You should not have to blow down into buckets. Your boiler should have the blowdown valves plumbed to a point several inches (dictated by code) above a drain in the boiler room floor.
In the absence of periodic maintenance blowdowns, sediment WILL build up in the low water cutoff bowl below the float (similar in function to the float in your toilet tank), eventually preventing the float from falling when water level is low, possibly resulting in dry firing of the boiler - not good.
Bear in mind that I am not a steam system engineer. But I have been operating a boiler in my building for about 35 years, most of that time with an old Scotch boiler that looked like it came out of a small railroad locomotive.
I hope I have not offended anyone with excessive wordiness or discussing the obvious.
atwright
These guys are THE experts on breaking it down in such a way that most can understand what the options are.
http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/347/Water-Hammer/287/Water-Hammer-in-Steam-Heating-Systems
We just had our steam boiler replaced and soon afterwards it began hammering quite loudly at the start of each heating cycle. The reason was that the steam was coming up too quickly and reacting with condensate water running back down the pipes.
The solution was easy. I just turned down the main gas valve to the boiler a bit. It took a couple tries to gradually get the flame level down to the right amount.
All was quiet for a few days, but one cold windy night the pipes started hammering again. So I turned down the gas a bit more and it's been fine since. The gas company probably increases pressure at times of high demand.