Ann and I had a 48 hour layover in Istanbul last year. Newbies to the country, we decided to make the most of it. We visited the Aya Sofia, drooled over the colorful tile, and ate some kofta. Unbeknownst to Ann, I also had a secret mission. I wanted a rug.
I consider myself a good shopper. Furthermore, I am relentless, and I am frugal. Therefore (in my own mind anyway) I would return, victorious, the proud owner of a new (to me) kilim rug. It would be perfect, and it would be relatively inexpensive. I really don't know anything about rugs beyond the very basics. I couldn't tell you the difference between a Anatolian vs. a Sumak rug. I do, however, know what I like.
The first morning, Ann and I expertly wove past the standard hawkers and into the heart of the market. We found our destination, a booth recommended by a random blog. We were mentally prepared and we understood the custom. They would show us some rugs, we would drink a lot of tea, but there would be no pressure to buy.
No problem. We were there to play.
Our strategy? Don't react, or show any interest in the rugs. Smoothly sip our beverages and ask nonchalant questions. We even had a code phrase. The kind of phrase that gets you out of sticky situations, and sends a surreptitious message that only you and your haggling partner have the key to. In our case, the phrase signaled that we loved the rug in question, yet under no circumstances would we acknowledge that we were truly interested.
Yes, we thought we were crafty.
But then the actual rugs came. Hundreds of rugs. Hours of rugs. Rugs did a Disney Fantasia dance, just for us. It took a long time to find one that both of us (secretly) loved and was the right dimensions. By the time the magic phrase was uttered, we were both weary. We wanted sunlight. And, because of all the tea, we really, really needed to pee.
That's when the bargaining began.
We stayed strong, sticking to our price. And in turn, they tried everything to seal the deal. At some point, their salesman (who, more than once, was referred to as the Turkish George Clooney by his colleagues) put his head, with its luxurious locks, on my knee, batted his eyelashes and told me he was here only to make me happy. What else could he do to ensure I went home with a beautiful rug?
What felt like hours later, we reached an impasse in the negotiations and we left. Ann might have been a little bit mad at me for being so stubborn.
The next day, with our rug still in mind, and the clock ticking on our layover, we headed back to the market. Then we actually did the faux walk by. You know the one. Where you pretend you were just strolling by and "happened" upon their booth. It's straight from the Captain Obvious Handbook of Bargaining.
And thus began Round Two. After holding tough for what felt like eternity, they finally called a manager in. He was a business type in a suit, and somewhat like a disappointed uncle. He told us, with a stern face, that they had come down in price. Now, as a cultural courtesy, it was our turn to come up in price. It was the polite thing to do.
Boom. There it was. The next gun in their arsenal: guilt.
When we finally shook hands to seal the deal, the manager disappeared (after a meaningful look to his employees that said "and that's how you do it boys...") faster than I could say baklava.
So, what to take from all this? When buying a rug (or anything else for that matter) in a foreign country, know that they've been doing this a lot longer than you. And while you come prepped with a spine of steel, they also have their methods to get you to buy. Who knows when you'll buckle — when you're overwhelmed, or when they flatter — or guilt — you into the purchase. It's their job, and it's how they make their living. Chances are very good you'll never discover where that line is, and what the "right price" is for what you buy.
The end result is that we have a rug that we really like. It's a great souvenir of our trip, and we were comfortable enough with the price (about $375 if you're dying of curiosity). Beyond that, I have no idea whether it was a bargain, or even Turkish for that matter. Honestly, I no longer care.
(images: Dabney Frake)
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Having done a lot of, um, informal sector bargaining, I definitely believe in doing research beforehand. I don't mind paying a bit of an expat tax, but I don't like getting home and finding out that I paid more for my piece than I would have paid buying it in the US! That said, I also believe that if you got a price you like and they were willing to sell, then everyone wins. I think economists call that "perfect pricing."
Great story!
Still, wasn't that more fun than going to a mall and just picking one out? How interesting. And as far as souveneirs go, it's it better than a shot glass with Istanbul written on it? So I think it's a steal at $375 when factoring everything else.
Great story and congrats on your rug - it's beautiful.
Congratulations on the rug. $375 isn't a bad deal at all. I love negotiating. It's all about reading the other negotiator. And research, research, research!
Fabulous post, I felt like I was there! I've got that experience on my Bucket List, your tips are so helpful, fantastic rug and what a great story to go with it!
- Kate
I was once ripped off big time by a rug dealer in North Africa. It left me scarred when it comes to rugs...and I am a rug collector. So for many years now I have purchased all my rugs from one highly trusted dealer in the US. I guess it's an attitude thing: you either laugh off the game (and any insults you may not have caught) of haggling and letting the dealer get the upper hand (he did, in your case...although that price would be fine in the US), or you remember all that nonsense every time you look at the the rug and it's not a pleasant memory. I am in the latter group by temperament, so I tend to purchase very little on trips. I am not comfortable with the conventions of bargaining.
If you want to buy a rug (or whatever) without this elaborate dance, you can often hire someone through your hotel to do the dealing for you. They will certainly be getting a kickback from the dealer, but if you can agree beforehand one real price, they can generally get the item for you for that price. It avoids the possibility that you'll be manipulated into paying more than you intended.
$375 is a good price for a rug that size at the Grand Bazaar. It's probably Turkish, probably acid-dyed as opposed to natural dyes. That doesn't look like a kilim, though. I can't see the structure but that looks like a hali (knotted pile rug) from the design. At any rate, it's a very nice rug.
I'm not a fan of the bargaining, myself, but it's part of the process. The problem is that it's hard to go in and just browse to see what is there; the sellers don't want to let you leave and will practically tackle you to keep you in their store. I'm going to be buying a rug on my next trip to Turkey, and I'm already psyching myself up for it.
Many years ago I shopped at the Grand Bazaar. We were expats living in Moscow & ended up shipping a huge box of finds back home. I treasure those pieces & hope to go back again sometime. What an experience!
I went to Istanbul with my family in college, and my Aunt did all the negotiating. Before we walked into the Covered Bazaar, my dad took my siblings and I aside and said "Don't touch anything. Glance at everything with your peripheral vision." I thought it was because he was afraid we would break something or they would get offended and smack our hands. "No," he said, "If you touch it, I will end up buying it".
We spent 3 hours sitting at a rug vendor, while two men kept bringing my sister and I "Pretty Miss" (I felt so flustered and slightly Little Princess-y) tea, we ended up settling on 2 small rugs for each of us and 3 decorative grain bags. I have the bag hanging over my bed, it's so gorgeous!
I've done quite a bit of traveling and still HATE bargaining. You're at a complete disadvantage, IMO. And even if you know their high price is lower than you could ever get at home, there's the problem of ruining it for all subsequent travelers by accepting a price that's way higher than it "should be." Reportedly, if you do that, they find you stupid and unrespectable. It's what @JulieKohler calls the "expat tax." But if you're a newbie to this culture or this type of item, that tax can end up being more like a 400% mark-up. You can't win for losing.
There was a type of woven tapestry in Egypt that I knew should sell, at least to foreigners, within a certain price range. I also knew that the custom - for locals, not just foreigners - was to expect the seller to start at x% higher than the price he hoped to get, and the buyer to counter with an offer that's y% lower. Well, I found some I liked and the seller started at a full 300% more than what he was "supposed to." I was so insulted I seriously walked away. He called me back and gave ME a down-dressing because that's "rude, that's not how we do things." He was being sincere, this was not part of the "I have to feed my kids" type of bargaining B.S. I almost yelled back at him, "YOU STARTED TOO HIGH!!!" His elderly uncle came out to smoothe the situation and with very little fuss, he and I got to the end goal of the normal traveler price. But god, I hate having to go through all that. No, I do not find it the LEAST bit fun. I hate it so much I end up not buying very much. At least I never have unmanageable amounts of luggage on my return trip.
And just in case anyone doesn't know, NEVER EVER EVER let them "mail it for you." My brother bought me an incredible piece of clothing in India (I know how beautiful it was b/c his girlfriend got on like it, and took hers with her at the time). It was a Government Store so they figured it would be safe to go ahead and believe them. #Fail.
Pretty much agree with fellow Turk, Ayse, but I suspect for that price and size, it wasn't made in Turkey. Most rugs in the GB aren't made in Turkey anymore.
The bargaining process should be part of the charm. Although they do have foreigners at an advantage. If you want to buy a rug in TR, try somewhere other than the GB - even outside Istanbul, if possible. In any case, enjoy!
Oh my goodness.. I couldn't imagine being a rug collector.
I used to live in Turkey and had a great experience buying my rug before moving back to the US. We discussed what I was willing to spend, what I was looking for and then we worked our way through a stack of them. I supposed speaking Turkish helps, and being acclimated to the bargaining is useful as well, but for travelers, I would never recommend buying anything at the bazaar.
If you insist on buying from tourist markets here are some suggestions:
1. If it's the type of object you can buy in a shopping mall (knock-off purses, clothing, etc) you'll find the prices fairly firm, they won't move more than about 10%
2. If the price is posted (often for scarves) you'll not have luck bargaining unless you buy in bulk (say 10 lira off if I buy 3, sort of a deal)
3. Be respectful, they won't inflate prices on most things more than 20%, you're really not getting "screwed" for most things (because like I said, rent prices as well as the hush money for the police drive up prices in tourist areas) so don't cut their offers in half.
4. Don't be that ass hole with foreign currency. If there is one way to get screwed, it's by paying with foreign currency. They'll round the rates, and you'll wind up paying more. Same goes for a credit card. They'll charge you different prices (less for cash).
Beautiful! All those gorgeous rugs! I love your choice.
I lived in Istanbul for two years but I came back with a bigger and better prize: I *married* my carpet seller! :)
My Turkish rug buying story includes my brother, my Turkish sister-in-law, her father, her father's "rug guy," and my SIL's brother and mother, a small carpet shop somewhere in Istanbul, five hours, a lot of Turkish spoken at high speed by everyone but me, endless tea, lunch brought in from the kabab shop down the street and more tea. My part was picking out a carpet and telling my brother my maximum price. Oh, and I suggested that if the store owner wanted to throw in a small, but exquisite prayer rug made of silk, I might reconsider leaving the store carpet-less.
A good time was had by all. But I won't be going through that again, any time soon.
(And I got both rugs for a very good price. My SIL and her father are an incredible tag-team when it comes to bargaining. "My SIL came to Turkey and to Istanbul just to come to your store because we told her how fine your carpets are . . . .")
Great posting, and the rug is lovely! My chief at the contracting office that I worked at in Heidelberg use to talk about rug haggling in Istanbul. It sounded like such an adventure, but I never made it over to Turkey. :-(
At any rate, a lot of the bazaar vendors I dealt with while in Germany (from all over the world) loved the haggling on price, others just loved to talk (I got along with the latter the best). Ended up with good friends and some great finds while I was over seas.
What was the store you bought it from?
Just wondering where you went to buy your rug? I've been to Istanbul twice, and both times we've made purchases from Adnan & Hasan. It's the rug shop that the American Embassy recommends. We probably didn't get the best deals- but that has more to do with my husband, Emre (an American born Turk). He wanted to speak Turkish with them, but he doesn't love haggling. The rug that we bought two years ago was made right outside of Izmir, so there are rugs in the GB that are still made in Turkey.
That said, I really loved that shop. If you're planning on making a trip to the Grand Bazaar, I would highly recommend contacting the American Embassy and asking them for their list of approved vendors. We got lucky with it- Emre's cousin was an American diplomat at the time. Not only did he know the best shops, but he knew everyone in the shops as well.
Oh, and if you want to find a good ceramics shop in the Grand Bazaar, find Tarkan's shop. His sister, Hülya, is one of the kindest people that I've ever met.
I'll probably never make it to Instanbul but it's nice to dream.
I have a carpet my dad brought back from Saudi in about 1955. (He probably didn't buy it in Saudi but I'm not sure.) It needs some repair due to a disrespectful puppy. Can anyone suggest how I can determine if it's worth repairing?
I'll probably never make it to Instanbul but it's nice to dream.
I have a carpet my dad brought back from Saudi in about 1955. (He probably didn't buy it in Saudi but I'm not sure.) It needs some repair due to a disrespectful puppy. Can anyone suggest how I can determine if it's worth repairing?
How much did they originally offer you the rug for?
We are going to Turkey in 3 weeks and also wanted to buy a rug. Not sure what percentage of the original price you should be shooting to spend in the final price. Thoughts on that?
Also, did you go to any of the other markets to shop? Ive heard there are others with great rug shops other than the gran bazaar but not sure which ones....
The Grand Bazaar, even for a Turk who loves haggling, is a bit overwhelming, and I think it's very difficult to know anything about the quality of anything you buy there. However, even for smaller places outside the Bazaar, I disagree that the tourist mark up is merely 20 percent when you walk in. If there are tags on the merchandise, obviously there is no haggling-- local or not. But if there are no tags, I would expect a more significant markup for tourists. I don't really have any experience with rugs as I have only gone through vendors I personally know. As for other items -- jewelry, scarves, souvenirs, etc -- I have only seen a 20 percent markup for foreigners, where I have brought in a friend to a store I frequent and do business with, and then they are open with me that they are charging 20 percent more for my friend which they consider to be the most stellar deal a foreigner can expect.
A brief anecdote: I was in a store near Ephesus where I overheard the seller pricing a scarf around $125-$150. When we asked in Turkish if the vendor was crazy, he said, for us (meaning Turks), it would be $40, and from there we got it down to $25 or so. With a higher priced item, the markup would probably be less severe percentage-wise. That said, you are probably still paying less than you would in the US for a comparable item. Markups on rugs in the US is so severe that even if you are paying close to double, it's probably still a steal as long as you know you are getting what you think you are getting.
Best bet would be to try to get a recommendation from someone from the country and have them contact the vendor directly on your behalf prior to your arrival. They are not going to want to screw you knowing their source of business may cease to be so.
I'm going to Istanbul for the first time in 2 months and this is very helpful!
Kathryn1123: if there is someone who cleans hand made rugs in your area, bring them the rug and talk to them. In 1955, the rug was made in Saudi or a genuine rug producing area like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey. Saudi rugs are uncommon - if you have one, you are lucky - but, between the age and the sentimental value, it should be worth cleaning.
If there isn't someone in yor area, look on-line - there are lots of guys in NYC. Or find one of the tribal rug forums on-line and post your question, with photos, there.
I would send accurate dimensions, photo of the rug, and a photo close up of the back, showing the fineness of the knotting, and a photo of the stain.
If you are going to the Grand Bazar and know nothing about rugs, you WILL lose. However, the important thingies to buy something you like at a price you are willing to pay. Tell them you are looking for a new rug - do you really care? Most of what they will show you will be chemically dyed and then left to "age" in the sun. I have a great photo of dozens of rugs being aged this way in Morocco.
If you plan to spend serious money on an antique or semi-antique rug or kilms, try to find a copy of Hali's Rug Buyers Guide to Istanbul. It is years old but the big dealers will be around, even if their address has changed.
There also used to be a site of "trusted rug dealers" - but again, not for low end rugs. Google until you find it.
And read up on the basics of rugs - pile vs. flat woven, knots per inch, etc.
Rugs require a life-time of study - there are on-line forums and thousands of books and magazines on this subject. Even serious dealers make mistakes in attribution.
So go, enjoy, and remember your trip fondly when you look at the rug. And if you dislike the dealer, go to another store - who wants to bring memories of a jerk into our home?
Great story, and amazing rugs in those photos... wow. (A kilim rug is my most coveted item on my interior design wish list at the moment) :)
Get over it, folks, because bargaining is customary all over the world, and it is not always cut throat but a way of communicating. Unwillingness to budge and offer a counter offer is senseless. In New York in an immigrant community, I grew up in a culture where it is a talent and a sport, and very practical. It is not a measure of how well and much you can mislead a vendor or force him to agree; it is a polite, engaging, sometimes frustrating style of getting what you want.
Start with information about what you want to purchase; carry the details, such as dimensions, samples of colors, and then figure out the price you can afford, with some leeway. If you are purchasing a rug, you won't be purchasing many, so figure out "the desirability factor," if you select something apparently out of your reach. Accommodate and adapt to circumstances.
I've bargained with tribeswomen in China for "antiques" by our scribbling numbers on our palms--no verbal histrionics; Turkey was a blast, and I purchased small rugs for my grown children, large ones for myself, some friends, a wonderful prayer rug because it was beautiful and now graces my daughter's entrance in her house.
Disdain for a cultural ritual will get you nowhere. In Turkey, apple tea and good manners accompany such negotiations; in India, tea, also, and lots of compliments. Smiling, laughing, for it is a game ,not a fight, and you will always remember the incident as pleasant, and a bit outrageous.Remember, it's the vendor's livelihood, so don't be cruel and competitive. Save that for your broker.
And, I suggest laughing at yourself when you reach home, for you've engaged in a connection which teaches you how to work out a deal, a human deal, not a cash register walk to get your item wrapped and paid for.
P.S. This also works for purchases at local flea markets, too. First question: "Is that the best price?"
WOW. That is a blast from the past. 1994... Same carpet shop. Same apple tea. Many games of backgammon... which my friend and I lost all of. Gained 2 rugs and a cute tour guide out of it. Aaah... to be young again. :)
If you love the item, and you are happy with the price you paid, it's a waste of energy to debate afterward whether you got "taken." I have brought home many things that I treasure from Southeast Asia. Sometimes I bargained, sometimes not. What matters to me is that when I look at the item, I remember my visit to that country, the people and scenery there, the pleasure of being with my traveling companion ... so many pleasant memories.
ADDENDUM: I've reread the responses, and must add something; If you're traveling "to win" you learn nothing about where you are. The Ugly American imposes his/her will and fear of being outwitted by others. Sure, you may find the same item you purchased at a lower price in the States; I have, because I live in NYC where I can probably find everything, and I do, but I like to connect with others when I travel, and I don't mean my fellow Americans. I also don't have a chip on my shoulder that everyone is going to cheat me. Good manners, watching how things are done, never insulting others, and you'll have some terrific experiences to remember. Observe the body language, how you are addressed, and return the same courtesies. I've traveled all over the world, alone, with others, but I usually manage alone, or with my young children years ago, and I had a great time on a very limited budget. My home is filled with evidence of those encounters, and I have a story to tell about each purchase. If you travel to get the best deal, stay home.
I have to admit that much as I love the rug I bought in Instanbul, the best part is the story of how I bought it. You get the memories along with the carpet. It was an adventure.
Maybe it's me projecting, but my assumption was that the reason most people are anxious about alış-verış (bargaining) is that it's hard to know where to start with a response to the price offered. I know what things cost in the US, but it'd be easy to insult a vendor with too low (or oddly, too high) a price in another country.
That said, in the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul, I usuallycome back with half the price offered. It's almost certainly too much for somebody local, but if it's a price I'm willing to pay, I don't sweat it. Nobody there is getting into the 1% by selling me a porcelain handpainted bowl for $100 more than they could otherwise get, and it's not going to bankrupt me, either. If half the price is way more than I would pay for the item, it's over for me, but then I have to fight my way out of the stall because they always really want to haggle.
I'm worn out just hearing about the transaction! But I admire you for hanging in there.
The rug is good looking and you've got a great story. Both are worth years of enjoyment.
I'm not sure why I should be impressed or pleased that you took a vacation, landed in a foreign country, drooled over the exquisite creative craftsmanship of the people there, behaved as if those same people were untrustworthy, and are now flaunting how little you paid for what they offered you. I'm embarrassed that you represented Americans that way, and sorry you missed out on an opportunity to connect with people.
Oh dear Ruthie. I think you missed that they did connect with the people, oh well. Also sounds like it might take an awful lot for you to be impressed or pleased.
Yeah, my organic free trade panties got in a bunch there. I tried to delete and rewrite my comment, but it was too late. Haggling is a cultural experience, and they were indeed clever about it. It's true. But I'm still put off by the story. I haggled so hard once that I walked away thinking I'd had a great cultural experience with people, thinking I'd earned their respect as opponents, only to later realize they'd sold me their work for too little to live on, and I could have easily paid more.
I lived in China for several years, and although I'm white, I'm fluent in Chinese. One of the ways I developed my language skills (I speak at a native-level) is by spending days and days in the markets, haggling. I even worked at a tailor shop, helping them sell suits to foreigners and expats by figuring what they wanted, in English, and translating it to Chinese. I got "paid" in deeply discounted cashmere.
I know the customs and the dialogue -- it IS all a dialogue, the same conversation over and over again really -- and I am a top-notch participant in the acting, the gesticulating, the pleading, etc. It's quite fun for me. I go back every year or so, and I always stop by the market to say hi to my favorite sellers. I don't haggle as hard anymore. I'm mostly happy to see them and it's nice that I already know where to find the best goods.
My main motivation for picking up another foreign language would be to go to that country and haggle! I'm fixated on rugs at the moment, so maybe I'll have to learn Turkish...
PS: Can we see a better picture of the rug you chose? It's fabulous.
Phew. This is one of those 'if only I'd known' posts. My (ex) husband and I were on a honeymoon cruise that stopped in Istanbul. We went to the Grand Bazaar of course, la,la,la as part of our sightseeing and spent/ "experienced" 2+ hours rug shopping when we had no interest in buying a rug! We simply didn't have the money, but that admission was misconstrued as a bargaining ploy. They finally believed us and let us go, very disappointed. So, do not go up in an elevator to look at rugs casually. It was interesting, the carpets are gorgeous, you learn all about rug-making, feel like you have made life-long friends; if we'd been the market for a rug, I suppose it would have all been fun and worthwhile. Frankly, I think I'd rather buy one at an estate sale or CL!
so do you check it in at the airport like lugage? thats got to add a few $$
Great story!!! I'd love to buy a kilim there :)
I have just returned from Istanbul yesterday. Didnt have the budget (or space) for a rug but I did haggle and buy a couple Turkish towels - the really lush, thick, fringed ones. I would definitely suggest checking out the Arrast Bazaar as well (behind the Blue Mosque). Its smaller and more relaxed with more boutique style shops.
I am going to Morocco in March and want to know how does one get a large rug home?! Do you ship it? Carry it on the plane? (I'm too old to carry stuff anymore!) How do you know if a shop is reliable enough to actually ship it to you after you leave, especially if as someone mentioned it is better to pay in cash?
This reminds me of the time my family went to Dubai when I was a kid. The trip was about five hours by road through the desert between Muscat and Dubai. About an hour before you reached the city, we saw these tents set up by merchants selling carpets, rugs and other local furniture. On our way back we stopped to check out this small souq like setup and my mom had her heart set on a rug that she wanted for our living room. I remember my parents and uncle bargaining over the thing for about 2 hours. Ultimately it wasn't until they staged a walk-out that the seller agreed to our price
I loved rereading this post. We've been to Turkey twice and ended up buying 1 very small silk carpet the first time and 2 bigger carpets the second time. I don't know if we got a good deal, but I love the carpets and remember the whole ritual of buying. We saw what we liked at the start of our trip (in a store in Istanbul), but didn't buy it until we got back to Istanbul at the end of the trip. In the meantime, we were 'entertained' by a number of other carpet sellers, but we really didn't see anything we liked as much. We use the 2 bigger carpets in the winter and pull them up when it's warmer. The small silk carpet hangs on the wall. I also got a 'circumcision vest' from Uzbekistan when we got the 2 carpets - sounds odd, but it's a beautiful piece :)