indignant freak-outs... GO:

These lists mean nothing to anyone. I'm convinced they actually pull them out of a hat. In a couple months a few of these will be on some "best city to live in list".

An eye opener indeed

I grew up about 100 miles from four of these cities and I turned out awesome. Looks like another slow day at Forbes magazine. Also - picking on the Midwest? The whole state of Alabama seems pretty miserable.

I really question the point of lists like this. Simply creating a 'Misery Index' and not going any further than that seems lazy, though I suspect something like this exists mainly to bring meager joy to the people who don't live in these cities.

I live in Cleveland (just bought my first house here last Fall), and while there are problems here, 'misery' is a very loaded, inaccurate word. I've also been to Detroit and the problems there are staggering...but I know the people I met there would take issue with being called 'miserable'.

The list means nothing to anyone unless you live in or near these cities. I live a 10 minute drive across a bridge to Vallejo and it is a miserable city. You certainly don't want to get caught without gas at night there. Now, they may be nicer areas but I have yet to find them.
Modesto and Stockton are the same.

I know the entertainment value of articles such as the "most miserable" list, but I don't think most people realize what they do to the towns that are featured. Cities like Flint, Michigan (I work there) are already down and trying to get back on their feet. They are struggling to lower their crime rates, balance their budgets, and keep the hard-working, well-adjusted people to stay. Articles like these make those who live in these miserable cities and make their livings there feel ashamed to call it home. Let's start writing articles about how to fix these cities, not rank them on who's the saddest.

These lists are always bizarre. I get Detroit and Camden based on the huge issues there, but NY, Chicago and Atlanta -- to which so many people aspire to move and buidl careers etc. - just don't get it. Caveat emptor - NYer here, and I can't imagine living anywhere else!

omg, I drove past Gary IN on my way to Chicago last summer.

what a scary depressing looking place, at least the view from the freeway!

looked straight out of a hollywood movie about crazy depressing weird places.

I live in Detroit. I am sure there are miserable areas of the city, as we have a working class population, many of whom lost their jobs with the downturn of the market, more specifically the car industry. However, I happen to be proud of the city where I was born, raised, and educated. I do not consider my life, my surroundings, or my city miserable. What I do know is that many of the residents of Detroit's suburbs come to the city to enjoy its cultural centers, activities, and other such wonders...so it must not be as miserable as it is painted. Sure, we may have our financial woes, but I believe it is also a vibrant and culturally diverse city.

I find it much more miserable that anyone feels the need to compile such a list. Lists like this do not do anything to help America, those of us who live in these cities, and those of "us" who cannot afford to move outside of these cities. Many of these cities are diverse urban areas, where both the financially affulent and the poor live blocks away from one another. They are cities which boast larger minority populations, and tend to have more working class citizens. Much more than money (the cornerstone for lists like this) goes into dictating what makes a place miserable...

NY doesn't just mean manhatten, it includes places like queens. yikes!!!

now that is one depressing and horrible place!

Some of the most amazing community building in going on in Detroit. There is misery in any city in the country, and there is vibrancy. I know people who love Phoenix, which is my own personal idea of hell. Or Orlando. Many of the cities on this list are majority minority, which begs the race question here as well.

Where is Los Angeles?

New York is easily the most miserable fabulous place I've ever lived, or the most fabulous miserable place I've ever lived. Day-to-day life is difficult there, but for the most part I really enjoyed it. Misery is relative.

Yes, the miserable-ness is in the eye of the person living there. As apartmentzombie said I could not stand some places people see as paradise (the sticky heat). Granted I despise the cold that is Cleveland, its a great place to live with some of the best food and beer in the country. I am actually considering moving back to my hometown of Toledo (which in my opinion is slightly worse than Cleveland) but would be happy in many of these places.

What's needed is a list of the World's 10 Most Miserable Magazines.

Any candidates for No. 1?

Thanks for sharing your thoughful comment, kynnmorton! While I choose to live in the suburbs of Detroit, I love our fair city and all that it has to offer.

New York? Huh?

But I will say, Poughkeepsie is depressing. I used to live near there. An IBM facility had laid off something like 11,000 workers. There was this huge parking lot with four or five cars in it. Then the residential areas were just full of boarded-up houses. Lovely old buildings were falling to rot. Very sad.

My husband and I often play the "Which of these two cities would you live in if you had to?" game. Our toughest choice yet has been between Phoenix and Wasilla.

Fun and games aside, these lists are ridiculous. We'd all be better off if magazines spent their time doing good investigative journalism into the economics workings and national and local corruption that leads great cities to decline.

You have to look at the factors. High unemployment, blight, and crime are reasons why a lot of the cities on that list are there. Chicago's high crime alone puts it on the list, I bet, not to mention the poverty. I love Chicago, and I know other people who do as well - but I bet if you're poor, you don't like it there so much, or anywhere else that is too expensive to make a living.

@roseduggan - I'm not from Alabama but trust me there are plenty of wonderful places to live within its borders. No need to make blanket statements.

They don't call it the rust belt for nothing, I assume.

As a Mississippian, I'm surprised Jackson didn't make the list.

Considering the factors they used here (violent crime, unemployment, cost of living, etc), I'm not surprised to see many of these cities on the list. I'm sure they're great places to live if you have money, have a stable job, and can pick the safest place to live and enjoy all the city life amenities despite the traffic, pollution, or weather issues, but for the poor or even average person it's going to be very different.

Still puzzled about NYC. Expensive? Yes, Difficult to make it here on an average salary? Yes. Culturally rich? Great food? Amazing people? YES! It's even got some gorgeous streets, though some people don't pick up their doggy poop.

I also don't get the comment about Queens being miserable. I used to live there. Incredible breadth of diversity in terms of architecture, cuisine and some culture as well (museum of moving image, PS1, art galleries in LIC). It's also affordable!

Warren is technically within the metro Detroit area, though a different incorporation, so it's a bit silly to have this on the list separately.

I do agree that Warren is a pretty bad place to live and I felt that way about Detroit in general when I lived there. And that was when the economy and the auto industry were HOT.

I'm glad for the natives that like it and feel proud to be part of the history of the city but most people did not enjoy the city, they were there for the financial and professional opportunities that were available at the time.

Hey--I live in Queens and LOVE it!

Living in Chicago my whole life I am not at all surprised that it's toward the top of the list. Violent crime is rampant, the city is highly segregated, public transit is losing tons of money and crippled with crumbling infrastructure, there is little green space, and the weather can be gross. Yet despite all this, rents are high.

Hmm.. I'm 10 minutes from Lake County, 20 minutes from Chicago, and about an hour from Rockford (grew up near there) and Milwaukee (went to college there), all on this list. I guess since I've lived near so much misery all my life, I must be oblivious to it??

And Lake County, IL, is a county. Not a city. Parts of it are QUITE affluent. It's very divided that way.

Stop busting on Queens!

This list is not helpful at all, and seems to be heaping misery on places that hardly need any more.

On one hand I'm saddened to see such a list. The struggles many people go through are not made any easier by their city or town ending up categorized as "miserable".

On the other hand, I would bet the above mentioned cities have surprising sources of beauty in spite of such labels. Whether it's inspiration of seeing a neighbourhood look out for each other or a child who hasn't lost optimism, there are some basic values to be observed as inspiration.

And I would bet the conditions are there for some incredible local music and art scenes. Even in so called "great" cities, it's often those in dire situations who have the greatest stories to tell.

I live in Vallejo (#6 - represent!), in one of a very few beautiful and safe neighborhoods; although the city has its gems, it's still a God-forsaken crap-hole.

Jeez, just from the pic I knew it was Detroit! I live in Warren and would not consider it depressing, I mean I know its not Royal Oak or Birmingham, but at least I can afford to live here......But there are some nice areas of Detroit, but it is a shame what has happened to it from its heyday(just going to the historical museum makes you sad). But the DIA is at least our one shining jewel, better than Chicago from what I saw

Detroit is a bit scary these days as is Windsor, right across the border where I grew up. It's not what it was 30 or 40 years ago. I sure do miss those Coney Island hotdogs though!

I've never understood Cleveland's being on a list like this. The size of the city, its amenities (biggest theater district between NYC and Chicago, University Circle museums (hello, FREE CMA!), Severance Hall, etc), medical facilities, relative low-cost of living, transportation access, and much more make it a great place to live! I moved here eight years ago, and while it wouldn't be my top vacation spot, it IS a nice place to live.

I'm outraged Baltimore isn't on this list and demand a recount!!!

Yes it's true that SECTIONS of Chicago are definitely crime-ridden (and have gotten worse since the Supreme Court struck down our handgun ban) but there are also many, many non-miserable areas of the city as well. You don't have to be rich to live there either. I have a home in a nice (but not fancy) neighborhood called Irving Park on the Northwest side of Chicago. There are plenty of decent priced rentals and I feel safe enough there to raise my kids. It's not Lincoln Park or even Wicker Park but it's not Englewood either.

I really don't understand the point of lists like this.

Heh
When I saw the picture my immediate guess it was Detroit and I had to laugh seeing Detroit as #1. No surprise. I got lost there once (no major maneuvering, I just happened to take a wrong exit from the westbound I-94 and I actually was on some major street but it looked even worse than the picture.

"According to Forbes, economist Arthur Okun developed the original Misery Index in the 1960s . . ." Thing is, it isn't the 1960s anymore. We're now drowning in shrill, link-bait listicles written by 20-somethings who are either working for free or working for peanuts, and who don't have a handle on anything other than hyperbole. Can we stop pretending to take this stuff as seriously as actual journalism?

Only one Southern location (Atlanta) on the list.

I am always surprised to see St. Louis on these lists... I'm not sure why, but I am.

When IBM pulled out Poughkeepsie (and other Hudson Valley locations) more than 20 years ago, things started going downhill quickly.

I find most places in the US are "scary depressing looking" from the freeway. I've learned not to judge based on that.

It seems the only people who take this list seriously are the people who live in the cities listed.

The cities on that list do have problems with some combination of violent crime, unemployment, foreclosures, high taxes, high home prices, commute times, weather and net migration, do they not? I hope most of us are smart enough to realize that the negative qualities do not tell the whole story of a city's personality.

Seems about right. I live in NYC (Brooklyn) and it's getting more miserable. Taxes, taxes, and more taxes, nanny state regulations, and the subway is getting more expensive while service and commute times worsen.

Born in #2
#4 is one of my favorite cities in the world

These lists are dumb.

Because St Louis is miserable. It has everything... and nothing. We are insanely segregated, there have been... 25, I think (maybe more), murders since the beginning of the year within the city limits and considering the relatively small population that is within the limits that's a big number. Violent break-ins in my neighborhood seem to be the new hot trend. Tiny areas within the city limits are amazing, but always surrounded by poverty. I carry mace to walk my dog in the early mornings. There are days when I think St Louis is glorious, but mainly I'm kind of scared and tired of staying to the main streets in my neighborhood.

Nisiepie - Speaking from NJ and the Route 95 perspective. That stretch of highway, up and down the coast, makes every major city in every state it goes through look like a depressed shanty town. NJ is constantly mocked as being a cesspool, usually by those who only ever driven through it on the Turnpike, but I grew up here and I know better. And to that, how the hell are Paterson and Newark not on that list???

number cruncher BS

MissFifi, I grew up just footsteps away from Trenton. Now THAT place is miserable, and I agree with Newark too, horrible. I never fly into Newark because it's so bad, always Philly.

Oooo, I forgot about Trenton, yeah, that is rough Keusadilla. I grew up in Paterson and it is a shame to see how bad it has gotten. Actually in relation to Newark, there is a whole section of Essex County no one should venture into at all. EVER.

Oooo, I forgot about Trenton, yeah, that is rough Keusadilla. I grew up in Paterson and it is a shame to see how bad it has gotten. Actually in relation to Newark, there is a whole section of Essex County no one should venture into at all. EVER.

Such a sad sad list. I'm thinking of the children, the defenseless innocence gone too soon children. They are born and live in all these places often loved by parents or surrogates trying their best. While I read apartment therapy for eye candy escapism I'm happy to be reminded of the real reality of amerikka in the 21st century.

PARTS of St. Louis are miserable. There are quite a few areas (yes, even within the city limits) that are perfectly fine. The places that you'll run into problems are in the gentrifying "hipster" areas like Benton Park and Cherokee St. where you have high-income youth from the county moving into the area and commingling with the destitute inhabitants. They're seen as easy targets with a lot of profit potential. I live in southwest city and wouldn't mind walking the streets alone at night. It's just about as safe as anywhere in the county.

Surprised Philly didnt make the cut. I agree about NYC, not sure why anybody would defend it. Lost my job, my phone, and had my car stolen all on the same day in NYC...thats enough to make anybody miserable.

I assume most of these cities are poverty stricken? Well guess what, that does make a city hard to live in but that doesn't mean the residents aren't trying to make it better. I live in the poorest city in Massachusetts. Everyone freaks out when I say I live ther, and it's insulting. We have artists, community gardeners and promising new cafes as well.

Yes, crime is miserable. But this mainly reminds me of a quote I read many years ago, and wrote down but didn't include the attribution:

"California's easy. Any fool can appreciate California. It takes attention, subtlety, and character to appreciate Kansas."

@nickarmadillo Yes, parts, that's why I said some areas are great, but always seem to be surrounded by something bad. Southwest city is pretty great. I, however, live very close to Downtown, *close* to Lafayette Square (which of course is the bee's knees) but not close enough.

I also hate when people throw around the term "hipster areas". I lived in Benton Park West too. I want to be close to work (downtown), and not have to fear for my life. I don't want to be shunned to the outermost edges and practically live in the county.

Milwaukeean here... Yes, it's one of the most segregated cities in America, but our job market is actually one of the better ones in Wisconsin so I'm a bit surprised. And it's really a very lovely place. The first two on the list are no surprise to me. I suppose Chicago and New York are on there by default - both are so large and expensive you're bound to incorporate areas of high unemployment, and when you contrast that with the high cost of living you're bound to make it on the misery index.

"Miserable" is usually determined by whether or not it is a good fit for you for whatever reason - lifestyle, people, cost of living, etc. Which is why some people hate NYC and others couldn't imagine living anywhere else. I'm sure the same is true for every city on this list.

@RumAGoGo: I have to agree with nickarmadillo. There are definitely depressing places in St. Louis (ahem, North City), but I live in Dogtown right next to Forest Park and never feel unsafe.

I'm surprised Milwaukee is on the list. I have lived here my whole life and I think it's pretty nice. And I do travel, I've visited MANY other cities. Weird. Whatever.

I look at the houses in the photo and I see places that are begging to be restored to their former glory. Hope-ful versus hopeless.

@ellenchristine Look at a map of St Louis, and think how many of these neighborhoods are A-OK. The balance is way out of whack. Dogtown, Lafayette Square, Holly Hills... there are a few banner neighborhoods, but in reality the bulk of the city proper is miserable. I still love St Louis, but I have come to realize that once I stepped out of my very South City 'hood and started moving closer to Downtown and the reality of the city, that it is really tough to pretend how great it is here. This city has some DEEP problems and more than just the North side. I can see statistically how St Louis is a miserable city, since most parts of the city kinda suck.

Lake County, IL?? As in the affluent North Shore of Chicago? Were the scales were tipped by all those angsty teenagers from the many John Hughes movies set and filmed here?

When Cameron was in Egypt's land, let my Cameron gooooo

I was born and raised in Manhattan and it has become a miserable, expensive place. It's lost its charm and special neighborhoods. I chose to live in Queens because there is still some neighborhood character but that too is dwindling.

Based on the criteria, I can see why Chicago is on the list. The crime rate has sky rocketed, many condo values have plummeted (though the rental value is booming!), and the unemployment is a problem. But based on day-to-day quality of life, this city is FAR from miserable. The city streets are clean, downtown is lined with trees and parks, and flowers that are updated seasonally. It's gorgeous! And there are a ton of shopping/dining/recreational opportunities.... I guess my point is, "miserable" seems to be a sweeping adjective that describes only a subset of factors that make up a city.

Based on the criteria, I can see why Chicago is on the list. The crime rate has sky rocketed, many condo values have plummeted (though the rental value is booming!), and the unemployment is a problem. But based on day-to-day quality of life, this city is FAR from miserable. The city streets are clean, downtown is lined with trees and parks, and flowers that are updated seasonally. It's gorgeous! And there are a ton of shopping/dining/recreational opportunities.... I guess my point is, "miserable" seems to be a sweeping adjective that describes only a subset of factors that make up a city.

QUOTE from above: In a couple months a few of these will be on some "best city to live in list".
---
Camden, I assure, has a long long way to go to ever being a place where you CAN live, let alone a best city to live in. This list is more accurate in some ways than people want to believe.

I was born in Camden and now live in NYC, so I have a bit of perspective on both... and I have to say, while I've loved my time here, I understand NYC being on the list. It's not the most dangerous place in the world (according to rankings) and, when you think of NYC, you don't immediately think of the poverty and pain that a lot of these places represent. But NYC is a cold, dreary, gray place for someone who doesn't have it all going on for them - if you move here (or are from here) without friends, without a relationship, with a low paying job that isn't exactly what you love, living here will make you question everything. And it's not a fun "finding yourself" like California can inspire you to do. It's a sad life crisis, where everyone is overworked and moving too fast to connect and you're just living in a blur. Add to that if you're not able to pay your exorbitant rent bills or find fresh veggies/fruit that are affordable, so the only thing you can do is feed yourself fast food and hope it gets better. Sure, it's a beautiful city - but conditions have to be "right" to allow people to enjoy it.

St. Louis, born and raised!

My husband and I moved to Belleville, IL about two years ago, and my grandparents as well as friends have issued their concerns. East St. Louis is where you'll see the rampant crime, and Belleville neighbors it. We live on the opposite side, however, in a sweet, little retirement community that only sees the occasional car break-in. I never feel threatened when I run through the area or walk our dog. The city hosts one of the largest art fairs in the country as well as numerous festivals that draw huge crowds. We're within walking distance of fantastic boutiques and restaurants and are surrounded by houses that have been turned into historical landmarks. Unfortunately, all of that is often overshadowed by the crimes that occur near us.

Personally, I've started finding these lists as humerous every time they're released, and St. Louis is mentioned again. You can't discount the city as a whole. There are shady parts, but overall, it's a great place to be.

@mei-ling - The interior designer inside of me agrees, but that would make those homes such a target on those streets. You can't just go in and whip up a cute new home - that home has degraded because it was surrounded by drugs, gun violence, and poverty for so long. That's the problem with cities like Camden (and others, but I'm most familiar with Camden) - there's no good strategy to pull it out of the darkness without making it more dangerous for the people who live there/running them out completely. It's so sad.

I can only speak for NJ, but I am sure this applies to all depressed cities. I have always wondered when cities like Camden, Newark, Paterson, have industries that leave and corrupt local governments that help thwart them from ever getting back what can they or the residents even do? Corey Booker is trying, but Lord knows he is dealing with over 20 years of corruption in Newark and with a friend who works for the Passaic County Sheriff and tells us just how bad it is in Passaic and Paterson, you almost feel like a resigned bystander, witnessing these cities implode on themselves.

@Lauren C. - I understand that perspective. And it's certainly a scary situation in some areas. But many successful revitalizations happen because the residents make it happen.

Here is an example:

http://www.theavenuemovie.com/

I grew up in Rockford, IL and, while it has it ups and downs just like any city, it makes me sad to see it on this list year after year. My dad actually just sent me a link to one local company's video response, which I think is pretty genius.

I also went to college in Milwaukee and have lived in Chicago ever since, and I love both those cities, so I think that list is a bunch of hooey. Take that, Forbes!

"We also include less weighty, but still important quality-of-life issues like commute times and weather..." Chicago certainly has its perks, but when I lived there I was MISERABLE. The weather there will really get you down, espcially this time of year. I live in Houston now and I'm 100 times happier. The commute is still brutal, but you don't mind it so much when the sun is shining! The whole attitude in sunnier climates is different, so I can see how the Midwest took a beating.

I was born and raised in Detroit and now live in Chicago. Honestly there are times I prefer Detroit. The amt of money I pour into living in Chicago is enough to make me miserable. Anyway, something to keep in mind about Detroit is that it isn't a place you go to take a vacation at. But it is a place that has a ton of hidden gems, a heck of a lot more personality than any other major city, and a place I love taking my boyfriend to when we are visiting my parents. If you know the in's and out's of the city (or with someone who does) you will see a very cool culture and entertainment life. It's honestly not all abandoned houses and gunshots, there are really cool and safe places to hang around at over there and a surprisingly large young population that are helping the city grow and become vibrant again.

Even though I really hold an stock in this list. I can't believe that my beloved St. Louis is on this list. Born, raised and currently living here. Every city has its problems but are we really the 12th most miserable city in America? If you do hold stock in these kinds of list and have an opinion on St. Louis in the past 2 years we have been named one of the best cities for recent college graduates, cites for families and one of the most generous large cities in the states.

I was born and raised in Toledo, OH and I moved to the Milwaukee area about 7 years ago. I have to say, I am REALLY surprised that Milwaukee is on here. It has its icky parts, but it's a really diverse and fun place to live. Great entertainment, restaurants, mostly friendly people and in my opinion, far better than Toledo. More than 4 spaces in my opinion. Although, I do visit Toledo several times a year as that's where my family still lives and it is getting better. Also, you can buy houses down there SUPER cheap.

Most of the places mentioned truly are miserable places where no one would willingly choose to live....unless they were wealthy and could create their own reality....in which case it would make sense that they do so in a more pleasant environment. New York is truly puzzling me on this list....New York is one of the greatest cities in the world. I can only imagine that they were referring to Queens (home of the Archie Bunker houses ewwwwww)...I'll give LIC a slight pass or the Bronx....Most other areas in New York are simply fabulous dahling.....if you can afford it that is.

What about Council Bluffs, IA

I see that two of their criteria are commute time and taxes.
Of course commute time isn't a consideration if you actually live in the city in question--it's for people who live in the 'burbs. So why pretend that's about these cities?

As for taxes--this may reflect the portion of Forbes readership who believe paying taxes is like enduring something from a Stephen King novel [1]. I live in NYC, the highest-taxing city in the country; it's a few hundred bucks a year, which, among other economic advantages, is more than offset by not needing to own, insure and feed an automobile.

Also, a cynical person might suppose that these ratings were less influenced by whether a city was interesting or stimulating, or if its residents were actually happy, than by issues of race and class.
_____
[1] Some may remember Stephen Forbes' short-lived run in the GOP primary a few presidential elections back; his platform consisted almost entirely of a plan to decrease his own taxes, which he apparently felt was a matter of national importance.

It takes a stable (and secure-ish) income, decent school district, and crime under control to make a neighborhood/city a desirable place to live (and raise a family).

The place you grew up is colored with rose tinted glasses and the protection of your caregivers. The place you went to college is also tinted with youthful hopefulness and bright eye energy.

The place you work and live and try to find a future is what really counts. And how one feels about said city is all in the perspectives (income, safety, diversity, amenity, facility, etc.).

I love NYC but I can see why it can be miserable to some. I can't afford to live a dignified and quality life there with my income.

Los Angeles, on the other hand, is a babe. I live in the hipster part of town, enjoy hiking in my backyard and walking to shops and eateries. My income is enough for one to rent and enjoy a bit of life. Crime is not non existent but I always watch my surrounding and make sure to close all windows and lock front door before bed time.

Are there bad areas in LA? Sure. And I can assure you that if you ask people who live there, they'll tell you that LA should be on the list, too.

It all depends on the perspectives, be it statistically or subjectively.

I'd rather live in any of the cities instead of the suburbs that surround many of them. I'd take a little urban blight over urban sprawl, chain restaurants, and big box stores.

Since Vancouver, CA is #3 on the desirable list, and New York is on the miserable list, I won't take these lists serious. Vancouver is pretty for tourists but awful unless you have a serious income (or married rich).

The Forbes article explains NYC's inclusion partly by a projection that people will leave the city: "New York has seen a trickle out of the city the past two years, but Moody’s expects those numbers to jump dramatically with a projected 136,000 more people leaving the city than moving there over the next three years." But Mayor Bloomberg announced today that for the first time in 60 years, more people are moving to NYC than leaving, and the city has grown by 161,500 people in the past 3 years: http://www.mikebloomberg.com/index.cfm?objectid=698D9AB3-C29C-7CA2-F54E1935CC30F92B

I am shocked by the idea of this list, coming from a site which usually pays tribute to renovating.

The Economist ranked NYC the 56th best place to live, as reported by apartmenttherapy

I take very little stock in these lists...and as for St. Louis, I live smack dab in downtown and I've never had a problem, even when I walk my dogs at night. I've got a stable job and this is the first place I've lived where I could afford a big apartment. Cost of living here is incredible and we have great cultural, sports and social opportunities. I'm not miserable here. Quite the opposite.

Misery would be living in the south with humidity, bugs, snakes, gators, hurricanes, did I mention humidity? I guess that would include every town and city within this area.

I've lived in NYC for nearly a decade and I'm not sure that it's as miserable as this list makes it sound. Trenton NJ, on the other hand...

I'm glad Forbes is doing their bit to discourage yuppie scum from moving to NYC. I commend them.

Lists like these are posted, not to be accurate, but to get people talking. Mission accomplished.

So it took 91 comments for us to agree that this list is weird and rather subjective.

This is what happens when our leaders promote policies that send our jobs overseas and invite financial institutions to rip-off American homeowners. Most of these places were once vibrant and filled with citizens who were gainfully employed. Now that the cities are trashed, the current administrations continue to engage in policies that punish the residents, rather than help them. There ARE creative solutions to these problems, but certain political leaders are too busy stuffing money in their pockets to give them a fair shake.

NY is a totally is a totally miserable place to live. I live here and let me tell you its horrible!!! Brooklyn, Queens especially... seriously dont get me started. Stay very far away, please.

;) <--------------------------------------------------------------81percentgrey

Born and raised in Rockford, IL -- and it's a P.O.S., I'll vouch for the Sock Monkey Capital of the world being #3

Yes @jukesgirl. This is an important point to make. Thank you.

Forbes wasn't the first to publish this list. I'm not going to bag on them.

I'm SUPER surprised Chicago is on the list. I grew up a few hours away and have fond memories of visiting the city and going to it's lovely museums for fabulous exhibits. There were also lots of lovely little neighborhoods where I got to taste delicious multi-cultural foods they didn't have in my small town. And all the lovely FLW houses! I was back for one day last year and was pretty shocked at the traffic and prices at the architectural salvage places. I did hear about gangs roving the miracle mile robbing and kiling tourists last summer. But I'm still godsmacked it's anywhere in the top ten. What's happened? Fill me in.
I sense another flight from big cities like America saw back in the day. Not to suburbia, but to smaller "town cities".

Dear Queens Is So Yikes Person - it's actually spelled Manhattan, not Manhatten. OH BURN!

Just kidding. But seriously, I've lived in all boroughs except for SI over the past 15 years, and Queens is the only one that stuck for me. I live in a great apartment in a happening, interesting neighborhood 10 minutes from Manhattan, where my gainful employment is located. We have a car, plenty of friends, and a seemingly endless supply of things to do.

THAT BEING SAID, when you don't have the money to live well in NYC, or the drive to get the money you need to have a good time living here without having to struggle so much, it can feel like the most miserable, godforsaken place in the universe. It's easy to feel poor and downtrodden here, even if, compared to many people in other parts of the country, you're doing okay financially - the income disparity can be unbearable when you're at the lesser end, since riches and excesses are so visible. The competition can be a little overwhelming, too - I've had more than one boss who's said to me, in so many words, Oh really? You don't like this aspect of your job? Well, there are at least 30 people I could hire into your position right now...and the crazy thing is, they probably weren't exaggerating.

Instead of talking about how "miserable" these cities are, why don't we do something to fix it?

Misery would be living in the south with humidity, bugs, snakes, gators, hurricanes, did I mention humidity? I guess that would include every town and city within this area.

I also grew up in Toledo and I think it should be higher on this list...the thing about Toledo is it's hard to express why it's an awful place to live (good restaurants, museum, and zoo, but explaining how every facet of life there is just full of hopelessness is hard). It's not as obviously damaged as Detroit, but from the time I was in middle school I (and most of my peers) were told, "Get good grades so you can get an out-of-state scholarship and move away. Don't go to school here and get trapped. You'll never get out then." I would guess that the 'migration index' pushed them higher on the list, because I went to one of the better public high schools and know VERY few of the more promising classmates who still live in Toledo. Only the ones who were too high/depressed to do well in school got stuck there.
I have family from Cleveland and I think it gets a bad rap; I think Cleveland's biggest issue is that public schools in some areas are so bad but private schooling there seems much more expensive than in other towns...and the quality of life when struggling to afford private school suffers. I know so many dyed in wool, unionized blue collar, Browns-loving Democrats in that area who say 'I never thought I'd be the type to send my kids to private school, but I just can't send them to this public school.'

I think Forbes diminishes it's credibility when it puts out these lists. They're just pointless. To use "crummy weather" in Poughkeepsie, NY as criteria, is stupid (& BTW, I have been to Poughkeepsie many times and the weather is the same as every other place in the Northeast), and if NYC was so miserable, why do people flock there from all over the world? Seriously, why do these lists even exist? I'm sure there are a lot of people who love living in all of these "miserable cities." Worst of all, I can't believe I've wasted time even thinking about this!

Portlandrules - the Mag Mile and the Loop are the same as ever (well not ever...Marshall Fields isn't coming back, that damage is done).

A few years ago, my girlfriend and I wanted to spend a couple of days sightseeing in Philadelphia. Checking online, we found a great deal on a hotel in Camden, and booked it, figuring we'd take a bus or taxi into the city. Neither of us knew anything about Camden, it was just a spot on the map to us.

In the end, we were fine. The town seemed very poor, and many of the buildings were vacant and crumbling, but the people were nice, and we had a great vacation. Not sure I'd want to live there permanently, though.

Perfectly said. Thank you.

I really have to question the point of articles like this. I really don't see any valid reason or point to it. Who does this really benefit anyway other than provide some kind of twisted entertainment value for people not living in the most miserable cities. All cities have their issues, especially cities that experience rapid population booms, even cities that make the best city lists have severe problems, and especially in this ECONOMY. What about stories that discuss what city officials and politicians are doing to resolve these problems? I agree that this is what happens when our leaders promote policies that send our jobs overseas and invite financial institutions to rip-off American homeowners.

"Most of these places were once vibrant and filled with citizens who were gainfully employed. Now that the cities are trashed, the current administrations continue to engage in policies that punish the residents, rather than help them. There ARE creative solutions to these problems, but certain political leaders are too busy stuffing money in their pockets to give them a fair shake."

Agree with @Jukesgrrl 100%.

Holy butthurt, Batman. I'm honestly surprised by how many people are offended by the list, especially the people who live in the cities listed. The list isn't saying the people living in those cities are all miserable SOBs who should off themselves or move because life isn't worth living. It's just saying aspects of those cities are more miserable when compared objectively to other cities.

I live in Atlanta. Is the traffic miserable? Hell yes. And don't get locals here started on how MISERABLE the traffic becomes when there's inclement weather. Speaking of weather, that gets pretty miserable, too. We have droughts that last years, not weeks. I remember a couple of summers where people got excited when the lakes were only a few feet below normal, rather than 12 or more. And yeah, tons of people got laid off and tons of people had their houses foreclosed. All of that is miserable. But does that mean that everyone is miserable and there are absolutely no redeeming qualities to the city? No, of course not. If you live in these cities now, it should come as no surprise that there are huge areas of suck. Doesn't mean you have to be ashamed of your city.

@ Snowdog...If people in Chicago are paying the prices I saw at Architectural One, Detroit could be saved by dismantling all of the run down houses and shipping the vintage doors, brick, balustrades, et al to Chicago for resale. :)

I share the same sentiment. I love Detroit, I live in the area, I work in the area and I play in Detroit ALL of the time! The restaurants, the art galleries, the best farmer's market in the nation, the bicycle community, the moped community, the people and so on and so on are fabulous!!!.... I wonder if Forbes is aware Detroit has the most urban farming per square mile than any other city in the nation or is home to one of the oldest bowling alley's in the nation. Detroit is AWESOME and unfortunately has a bad reputation. Of course every big city has it's misery, but the sense of community in our city far surpasses many others. I am proud to live here and feel sad for those close minded individuals who actually believe stupid articles like this.

What a disgusting list. Many of these cities have had it very bad why add to it by announcing to the world how "miserable" places they are. I am pretty certain that the residents still have rich fulfilling lives that aren't focused on what is missing from them. Detroit has a rich history that helped that helped to make this country what it is. Why not create a list on what these cities have contributed to our country.
Shame on Forbes and shame on AP for posting it on here. What is going on with AP? I thought this was a place to celebrate and help each other with creating a home, not a place to kick people or ridicule them for what they don't have.

chicago has an eatery entirely devoted to grilled cheese. so i don't think it's that miserable...

Hey apartmenttherapy, why don't you profile more tours from these apparent miserable cities, and celebrate- as leadingedge said- the lives and homes and creativity of people who are choosing to build communities in places that need it most. I'm not from Detroit, but I'm rooting with all my heart for her recovery. I hope you do the same.

Why isn't Seattle on the list? Been here six months and I'm completely miserable.

Have you been a victim of the Seattle Freeze?

http://www.kpluwonders.org/content/why-seattle-freeze-so-hard-melt

Ha! I have a cousin that is flipping houses in Flint. I myself live in DC where we see no signs of a bleak economy and would kill to be 'miserable' in Chicago!

This list was probably made by the 20 most miserable people.

It is sad to witness such once great cities as Detroit on its knees. I live in a part of the country that will never produce cities with the history and culture as Detroit, St. Louis, etc. I do not know why my city did not make the list. Commute time is horrible, since we do not or never will have adequate public transportation. Our culture is derivative at best. There are only a handful of restaurants worth patronizing. Although our climate is mild during the winter, summer is another story. On top of the ongoing heat and humidity, you get to deal with natives of this State, mosquitos. I am also tired of seeing old people in tank tops and ill-fitting shorts wearing flip-fops at the grocery store. I would tell you where I live, but as of last year, my house is now underwater; and I want to sell this place and move back North.

Yes there are some areas that look really bad but when you look closer you see a community trying to get it back on track. Beside a burned out old mansion you will see a home that has been put back together with a front yard garden growing fresh produce that will likely feed many. I hope a list like this will at least help call attention to real Detroit and get people to take a look for themselves. I'm sure the same can be said about the other cities on this list, I just have not been to many them.

Agreed!

They seem to be basing part of their decision on weather. Who cares about the weather? The hard parts make the good parts even better!

Written from Chicago, where we are jonesing for spring and will be rolling on the green grass like puppies very soon......

Here here!

Sorry if someone said this already, but New York is also on the Top Best Cities in the world. I think if you don't have money it pretty much sucks no matter what your location is.

Rust Belt solidarity, yo. Detroit, Toledo, much love from the CLE. These lists just serve to reaffirm the fears of wealthy suburbanites. I grew up in the safe, homogenous outer ring suburbs of a different city and I can't imagine moving back. The weather here may be terrible, but this city has vibrancy and potential. (Yeah, I just called Cleveland vibrant!) I've lived on the East Side near museums and the West Side next to unbelievable restaurants. (I case you didn't know, the Cleveland food scene is beyond rad.) It's not like we don't have problems, but I shop locally, I eat locally, I live where I want. Forbes can take their stuck up list and stuff it.

Check out www.detroitblog.org for stories about people in the Motor City trying to make their city better.

It's the people that make a city wonderful -- despite the ruin inflicted by a heartless economy and politicians who line their pockets at the expense of their constituents.

I now live in a city voted Best in Canada. I find the citizens mostly disconnected, the suburbs vapid, and the politicians lacking all imagination. To add insult to injury it's late March and it is still brutally cold. I moved here from Worcester Massachusetts (surprised it's not on the Forbes list) -- a gritty struggling city that beats out all the hipster towns I have ever lived in (and the list is long).

CleveGal -- you go girl.

This makes as much sense as ranking the best and worst religion or race or sex or age. In other words, most people don't have a lot of choice about where they live. Job, family, fate, etc. determine that.

But consider the source--Forbes Magazine. Their target readership--white, wealthy, corporate--at least wants to believe they have (or deserve) a choice about everything.

If you were born in Detroit and still live here, you are not miserable--you have adapted. If you are from anywhere else, you will come here and complain endlessly.

I was driving my cousin to the airport after a week with me here in Detroit (she lives in New Mexico) and we got into a screaming match about how it was possible I could be happy here. She thinks I'm lying or mentally disturbed to think that living in Detroit is the best use of my life. Weird.

Life-long Chicagoan here. Yep! Chicago sucks. Its corrupt, has a terrible public school system, high crime (especially VIOLENT CRIME), high taxes, segregation, short summers, long winters, terrible traffic, etc. etc. etc. But most of all, TOO MANY TRANSPLANTS!.
Just kidding. I am going to be a transplant soon since I'm leaving this sh*thole and I want people to be nice to me.

Pretty sure my beloved Milwaukee was on a previous top 20 cities to live in.

Proud Milwaukee resident here! I LOVE living here! Maybe because I'm in a neighborhood just blocks from Lake Michigan, walking distance to fabulous bars and restaurants, and my commute to work is an easy 10 minute drive. I've lived in Boston, NYC and DC, too, so it's not like this is all I know. I choose to live here because it's awesome. And Milwaukee has definitely been on a few "Best Places to Live" lists recently, too.

Although if this winter drags on any longer, I might change my mind about Milwaukee's miserableness.

I love lists like this. There's no wrong or right, it's just a fun and thoughtful way to discuss what makes a place great or not so great. I'm compiling a list of the worst people with whom to hold an intelligent conversation.

Living and working in the Toledo/Detroit corridor, I sometimes feel like a new kind of pioneer. We're building a new civilization on the bones of the old one that is gone and not coming back. But the people who are here - the ones with jobs anyway - are excited about the future. When you live in cookie cutter 'burb, you just drift along. In our town, everyone can make a difference and actions count! Plus, a lot of the rules fall to the wayside when it's hard times. No one is going to get arrested for painting a wall mural without a permit, or selling tacos made on a home stove. Plus you can own a house on a lake for <$50K.

I was surprised to find Milwaukee on this list. I live in Milwaukee and like it. Yes, Milwaukee has its problems, oh yes it has its problems (said with a deep head nod), but there is so much the city has to offer. I am not from Milwaukee, but managed to carve out a decent fullfilling life here. I can afford a nice-sized apartment in a fairly decent community. Milwaukee even has lots of free cultural events for those who have to pinch pennies (like me :+D). Milwaukee has some of the most awesome food options you'll ever see. There's no perfect place to live, every place has its problems. You can live in the most picturesque, tropical place on earth, but if you don't have the means to care for the basic necessities, that place too will be miserable.