Nagging so doesnt work. I've found with my bf and with other roommates that talking helps, but if they're messy to begin with its going to be an near impossible task to convert them. So - I talk when I think its really at crisis mode, but otherwise I just do the damn work and be done with it. No need to be resentful - clean is clean and makes me feel good.

It is, to quote Dan Savage (more or less), so much easier to put the mayonnaise away than to yell until the other person does it. Pretty much, whoever wants it clean has to clean it. I suppose hiring it out is a good compromise...

I am soooo glad someone brought this up. Right now I'm doing the vast most of the cleaning because he's working and in school. When he gets out, I think there are going to have to be some big changes.

It's my opinion that no one should have to deal with other people's slobbery. On the other hand, I've survived some of my Mom's cleaning binges and they were frightening. So I think it might help if you agree on which areas can be kept clean and which can be allowed to be messy, and for how long. Divide and conquer; cut chores into managable portions.

I admit that I've done some decluttering by stealth (read: chucked a few of his things.) Most of them, he never missed. The ones he does miss, he's never suspected me on. He's got so much crap and it's so disorganized, he doesn't know what he has or what he's missing. Obviously this is a drastic step, use at your own discretion.

Beyond that? I refuse to have kids. I'm not kidding. The whole traditional attitude that they, like the housework, would be my job, just makes it not worth it. I'll spare people the feminist rant and leave it that my Dad never did jack around the house and my brothers emulated him, and I cannot visit my folks without getting royally pissed off about it at least once. So I look forward to other people's suggestions, so long as they aren't to suck it up. I am not a happy camper.

With an ADD husband and two kids, the mess can get cataclysmic. I couldn't train them (well, the kids have some hope of improvement, but not much), and we can't afford a cleaner, so I got rid of tons of stuff. Tons. While our rooms are now nearly spartan, we all appreciate the serenity of a living space that is quick and easy to clean, and mercifully free of clutter.

whytephoenix, I can really really relate. Luckily, I nor my slobby SO want kids.
Fair is fair, so I am happy to take on more since my SO works more than I do. But as we look to own instead of rent (where I admit I just don't care as much as I will when we find our dream small space), I am pondering the implications of a longer commute (less time to clean) and old habits.
Differing standards and priorities are so much harder to deal with than laziness.

To find out that the person you are dating doesn't quite live up to your standards of cleanliness is to say the least, pretty disheartening. I've straight up told my current guy that I will not be coming over anymore if he's left food out in the open overnight and have even gone so far as to tell him that I'm not even sure if the relationship can progress if he doesn't clean up his act. Yes, not the most subtle method, but it gets the message across. The dirty dishes/food thing is my HUGE pet peeve and it really grosses me out. I fully support hiring help at least once a month if they just can't bring themselves to clean their environment.

whytephoenix- I hear ya sister. My parents are so traditional and conservative that my father hasn't lifted a finger in the 45 years that they've been together!

I guess if I understood why people like a dirty living space I would be more tolerant to it, but I DON'T and I'M NOT.

I have my boyfriend and now my sister living with me. My boyfriend and I own the house and were happy with our arrangements. He did the dishes every second round. I took care of my laundry and he his. I did almost everything else unless he was asked to help out. he works much longer hours than I so it made sense. NOW my sister is at home all day long while we are at work and dishes pile up, beds go un made and trinkets are being left around... this will be interesting.

i know my sister has gone the hired cleaner route, but since we cant afford it... I have to deal.

My husband was raised by a traditional housemom, so he has no concept of how to clean things. I'm slowly breaking that down. First thing is there are duties we share and duties that are our responsibility, We share dishes, cat litter, and yard stuff. He keeps the bathroom clean and takes out the trash/recycling. I do laundry, vacuuming, and organizing.

Since the bathroom gets gross fast, he cant deny needing to clean it, same goes for the garbage. If I need to remind him I make a list and put it on the fridge, but I add things that I have to do too so that he doesnt think its all up to him

I'd love to hear alternative ways to deal with this also.

I live with my boyfriend and when I started working full time rather than freelancing....I'd come home from work cook and clean until the wee hours. In the 9 hours I'm away he can manage to use every single dish and cup pot and pan....it was insane.

I got to the point I put away everything but a set of 2. He wasn't happy. It wasn't until I picked up freelance for nights and weekends it really became horrid. It got to the point I couldn't even go into the kitchen, and had no time or energy to clean. I have more time as of late, but I'd like to be able to work something out. Also, I also regret not being more firm with some sort of house rules earlier on.

My "gay husband" /best friend told me he could never have married me if he was straight because I'm too messy. Other than that, we're soul mates...

Ugh!!
I love this thread. Grievances must be aired! My boyfriend just doesn't get it no matter how many times I'm brought to tears over having to ask him 45 times just to pick something up.

I have paid for everything in the house, I do the grocery shopping, pay the bills, clean, scrub, pick up, do all the dishes, and work a full-time job that gets me home around 830pm. When he's not at work he smokes weed, skateboards & downloads music on the Internet. And every time I ask him to help out with something, he gives me attitude.

It's like having a teenage son.
I feel like I've tried everything to solve the problem but fear the only resolution is for him to get his own place until he grows up.

I have had this problem with my husband for so long. He's ADD and a hoarder practically. We once broke up over it and soon got back together. Being without him and his mess was not the serene thing I thought it would be.

I've nagged, withheld sex, you name it. The only strategy that has worked was telling him if he cleaned that 3 foot stack of comic books, sketch books, important banking documents etc. off the credenza, I would "do him" on it. It was gone within a couple hours. I was so happy. Please note, this form of spouse therapy doesn't work if you don't want to put out.

We now have a 2 year old son who loves to sweep and mop and clean (a Virgo), it's a gift from god herself. There's a way not to freak out and leave your man just find the right motivation.

Hollie, you've inspired me. I'm going to write a list of the ten million things I do around the house and two or three things I want him to do, and then maybe that will put some things into perspective.

A6sinthe - better late than never... the set of two is an idea with merit. ;)

Seems like the cleanliness issue is a big test in a relationship. At our premarital clinic they were teaching us about assertive communication and doing these exercises in which we turned the agressive 'you' sentences into the assertive 'I' sentences. We were all dutifully translating until we got 'You left the cap off the toothpaste,' which one of the attenders blurted out, 'You can get your OWN toothpaste!' I don't think any of us marriage newbies were ready for the toothpaste debate yet.

I'm crazy about having a clean place, too. But when I moved in with my fiance two years ago, I had to re-think my lifestyle. We've never officially sat down and mapped out who's responsible for what chores, but it basically falls like this: we split chores that are important to both of us, like folding the laundry, keeping the kitchen clean, and taking out the trash (basically, whoever has the time and notices it first does it). If somthing is only important to one of us - usually ME - such as having the pillows straight on the couch, polishing the stainless steel, and Swiffering EVERYTHING, then that person is responsible. I would never dream of asking my fiance to fluff the couch pillows, because he doesn't give a rip whether the yellow one is in its correct place.

i am still in search for an arangement we both can live with it. i may be messier than the rest of the AT readers, but at home i am the one that is cleaning and decluttering almost alone. my parter does the grocery shopping and takes care for the cats, but the rest is what i have to do, as he is the sort of guy that cannot _see_ clutter or dirt. so i really need good advice from this threat.

I can understand this with roommates, where you're stuck living with someone you didn't know was a slob or neatfreak, but a relationship is very different.

In a relationship, no matter the situation, you have to be able to sit down, talk through what you each need, balance the stress and annoyance doing/not doing a particular thing causes each of you, try to understand the reasons for a particular hatred of any particular thing, and then figure out something that seems pretty much fair and workable to both of you. That's true whether the problem is cleaning, smoking, gift-giving, spending, (non) partying, or whatever. You can improve the way you communicate, but there is no way to force someone else to change when they don't want to or see the need to. None. All the charts and stars and nagging in the world won't do it.

If you can't work it out, then there is something you need that the other person won't or can't give you. Either you decide you don't really need it after all (e.g., you get better at picking up your socks because making your partner happy is most important to you) or you get what you need somewhere else or in some other way (e.g., you get around the slobbiness problem by decluttering or by hiring help).

Otherwise, you're just setting yourself up for the kind of constant low-grade resentment and bitterness that will poison your relationship and make your home someplace unpleasant rather than a sanctuary. Life is work, but being home should be the easy part.

I have to say, it's a little weird being the one on the other end of this... I will admit, I'm a little sloppy. Now, we're not talking gross 3-week-old dishes sloppy, I just seem incapable of rehanging clothes after I have tried on several outfits for the day or actually removing junk from my car. However, my boyfriend is incredibly organized and it drives him nuts that I can't seem to make these small changes (what did he expect, he's been around for less than a year and I have been like this my whole life). However, what I have noticed are 2 things that might be helpful.

1) Decluttering is key. I moved recently and had to get rid of most of what I own. Turns out, even at the messiest cleaning is easier when you own very little.

2) It feels GREAT to come home to a clean place (we don't live together, but spending a lot of time in his place... or mine after he has "encouraged" me to clean) feels wonderful. I am mostly messy because of time constraints, but he keeps pointing out how easy it is just to take the extra 2 minutes to do a little cleaning here and there versus an all day overhaul. This makes it hard to not take those little extra steps. Yes, I want to kill him each time he points out how quickly he washed our two dishes from dinner, but he's right. I think Elvedon has a good point with this, as we just talk about my disorganization like we do everything else we have to come together on. So who knows... maybe some day I will tidy:)

I agree with you elvedon, but every once and a while a half or both of a couple will get angry, or hurt, or frustrated, and an argument will in sue, and then you will forgive each other and the results will be positive.

I'm saying this because looking over my last comment it may appear that I think ive found the perfect solution. I havent. Sometimes we test each others limits and bicker over cleaning. I think its a part of every relationship... whether we aknowedge it or not.

I used to be in a forum of newly married chicks and one person asked how everyone dealt with couple arguments. I gave and example of one and how resolved it... then EVERYONE else on the forum stated they dont argue with their partner, never! Ya right!

sorry, that was a tangent

Okay, I've noticed in this thread it's girl=clean, guy=messy. Am I the only guy here who actually cleans up after himself?

There's a distinction between being "clean" (cleaning surfaces and appliances) and being "tidy" (putting things away). I'm not the best at always putting things away and organizing, but my girlfriend is and doesn't mind doing that part of the job. I am, however, fastidious about keeping the kitchen and bathroom spotlessly clean and dusting/vacuuming the place once in a awhile. And my girlfriend loves me for it ;-)

It has to be a partnership, folks. If the guy can't clean up after himself, then he'd better knowingly take on another responsibility that makes up for it. If he doesn't or won't then he's not holding up his end of the partnership.

well, the girl-guy thing seems to me more about traditional attitudes towards whose responsibility it is, rather than just a clean/messy thing. Luckily, my SO is pretty good about it. Since we have different levels of tolerance and priorities for different things, somehow the whole thing works out. He does the dishes, I scrub the stove, he does the laundry, I vacuum. It helps that he lived by himself for while, i guess, and learned that things dont just get done by themselves. (atleast, thats how I learned it!).

This thread is the theme of my living situation right now. I live with two people [one guy, one girl] and we all have separate rooms save for the kitchen and bathroom. Let me say - i by no means consider myself a clean-freak or even really tidy. However my roommates have gotten on my last nerves in terms of cleaning. The only thing I ask is that in the kitchen, no food is left out [ie food messes], and that you clean your own dishes and if you make a mess, clean it. I thought that was extremely minimal. They can't even do their dishes w/out prompting. I wash my dishes after every use out of RESPECT of the fact that our kitchen sink is smaller than a bar sink and i would find it very inconvenient since a few glasses in there and its useless. However, no matter to them. The dishes pile up. Crumbs get pushed to the floor. I know we have a mouse somewhere [i know, i know - there's never just one] that visits infrequently - i almost hope for more just so that maybe after a critical mass they will clean up their act a bit - but it rarely happens. I've tried talking to them, leaving them notes - it just doesn't work.

petitefemme22~ you do have a really great point. He had his habits far before I've been around. And even he took notice of our new neighbors who have put together their place beautifully and functionally and how nice it really is. Maybe it's going to be the start of something.

whytephoenix~ yes a set of 2 worked for me, it really cut down on the need to bring dishwashing up anymore. I had to laugh at the toothpaste thing, I've gotten used to that. Recently at a party my boyfriend's bandmate mentions to me....that my boyfriend squeezes the toothpaste from the middle of the tube. And it irked him and whether I was bothered by this as well.

nashdp~you are not alone! It's nice you're representing!

I really like this thread and how many people have really level headed views of it and of relationships in general. ;) Thanks

Oh, finally I can comment on something I actually know a lot about. I've been married for 8 years, I'm clean, he's messy... this is what I've learned:
1. Like some people already said, the best thing to do is clean out the clutter. If you don't have a bunch of stuff, it can't get too messy. For example, if you have lots of little decoration-type items out on tables, they will get moved around and other stuff will get added to the table and soon it will look totally messy. So get rid of knick-knacks, baskets on tables, coffee table books, etc. Use decorations hung on walls, that can't get messy looking.
2. I came to realize that my husband wasn't being MALICIOUS when he didn't clean, he just didn't SEE the mess/dirt the way I did. When surfaces are clutter-free he is able to see that that glass shouldn't be on that table, and he usually takes care of it. Also, he doesn't care about cleanliness as much as I do, and that's ok... we each have our own important things.
3. After a 7 year battle of trying to argue/plead/make deals/etc with my husband, I broke down and de-cluttered and then hired a cleaning service for twice a month. I always felt like it was being weak to not be able to handle the house myself, but I love the cleaning service so much, I've let all the inhibitions go out the door. It's better to hire someone then let this problem ruin your relationship. And it really isn't as expensive as I expected. So now I do light vacuuming, dishes, wash clothes, and other small daily stuff, and I let the cleaning people do bathrooms, wood floors, etc.

I think the secret is to figure out what your expectations are and what you're willing to sacrifice. If one is great on car or bike maintenance, then trade laundry/dishes/vacuuming for that. Same with bathroom cleaning vs. home repair or grocery shopping or pet care or whatever. If one really cares about the shower stall and the other one doesn't--you can't enforce your standards for shiny perfection upon the other person.

Hiring is good if you can afford it. But if you're in a new situation, establish what you'll do and what you won't--it doesn't get better with time.

Women end up doing more stuff because often they care more, but if you can work out the balance and not freak over the small stuff, you can have some harmony. If he unclogs the sink or installs software or does some other chore you hate--then find a way to make the trade off.

My husband likes clothes folded and turned inside out right after they're dry. Me, don't care. So, he does laundry, I do dishes and kitchen shelves organization. He does all plumbing, I hang all pictures. He cleans refrigerator, I cull magazines. You have to be willing to do the icky stuff, too--I house train dog.

Oooh, this is a delicious thread! I've run into it myself. The most recent SO and I found the best solution -- talk about it up front. We divvied up the chores by "you hate doing this most, so I'll do it because I adore you" -- whether it be scrubbing toilets (eew! Him) or making sure that the kitchen is spotless (me) or pairing up the socks after drying 'em (that mountain doesn't sort itself, now, does it?). Just talking about it helped. I like the direct approach.

Nothin much to add on topic but I do LOVE the vase in the picture. Anyone any identification on it?

a note on the vase, Tse Moana, I actually saw one in a specialty store for, lets face it, more than one wants to spend on a vase, in downtown Richmond, VA a few months ago.

Then, for my birthday, my sister bought the same, exact thing for me (i have a few glass model hat forms around, its becoming a theme), and i thought, god, i can't believe you spent that much money on it. Until I actually said that, and she admitted she'd bought the thing at Marshalls for less than $20.00 They have them in white and black, and everyone who comes into my living room says something about it.

I don't know if its a rip off of another design or not, but it looks great, and isn't that what matters?

ha - tse moana, i was scrolling through the post to ask the same thing! it seems like a z gallerie type find...

my parents had this problem when my mom went back to work full time, and it was a major stressor on their marriage. finally, after nagging, pleading, and yelling for years she sat him down and said "you can either do half the chores or you can use some of your spending money to hire a housekeeper". he's been paying the housekeeper for 15 years! turns out he was happy to pay to make her happy and it hadn't ever occurred to him that hiring someone was an option. and its not as expensive as you'd think- plus he'd gladly pay $50 twice a month to stop her yelling!
i'm facing the same situation now with my boyfriend- decluttering definitely helps but i haven't found the perfect solution. this probably isnt good, but i've realized he actually is kind of possessive about his stuff, even though i cant tell cause he leaves it everywhere. when its in my way i dump it on the floor in his space. somehow he doesn't leave it out anymore!

tse moana, it looks like a copy of Jonathan Adler's Dora Maar vase:

http://www.jonathanadler.com/shop/product.php?productid=16504&cat=0&page=1

I sometimes see fakes like these (in black) on ebay...

as far as the actual subject matter of the thread goes...I'm bit of a messy gal myself. I so much as look at something and it turns to clutter! I'm not living with an SO so happily this has no effect on my personal life.

my husband and I are both pretty messy...not nasty or anything, we just generate a lot of clutter. One solution that works for us is to decide what is most important to us (i like clean kitchens and bathrooms, so i do those, and he hates seeing any cat hair tumbleweeds on the floor, so he vacuums).

As for our mutual clutter, it helps to make the bed, and pile the clutter (Clothes, books, computers, etc) on top (or put them in a box or bin) and put them away from there. it is encouraging to see the floor and couch cleared of clutter, so it is more motivating to put things away.

Also, our schedules don't allow us to spend as much time together as we would like, and of course, we would rather relax together than clean the apartment, but oftentimes it is rather fun and rewarding to declutter together.

One thing that has helped motivate me was the fact that even the biggest piles of dishes rarely take longer than 20 minutes...usually even less. I think if we show ourselves (and our sig. others) how much can get done in a small amount of time, we (& they) would be more willing to dedicate time to cleaning.

I like the withholding sex option. That made me laugh. (Although I'm blessed with a husband who is reasonably tidy and clean). Hilariously, he fights me over vacuuming because he loves to watch the Dyson suck up whatever it finds.

I used to live with two roommates, both girls, and both messy. At first I didn't mind picking up after them, then I did find that I was resentful, as we all worked together and thus had the same time constraints. They loved to entertain and I would find myself cringing that people would see our place a mess. One of them wanted to hire a maid, but wanted me to pitch in for it. That was offensive. I cleaned up after myself and cleaned all the common areas. I refused. We didn't live together for much longer. Some things cannot be fixed.

petitefemme et. al: Around here, decluttering is more controversial than cleaning. Get rid of something?? Are you out of your mind?? LOL. My dad, a teacher, has stacks of tests ten years old that he must hang on to, but refuses to file, all in a very public, open part of the house.

I should probably add that I am no neat freak myself, I just peck away at the mess way more than the huz does. The bottom line is we're both just a wee bit overwhelmed by life right now. I'm confident that once he's got his degree, we can work this out. He's willing. I'm sure I can get more help out of him, if not quite as much as I'd like.

Elvedon - I agree with you - partially. If you can't work it out, your relationship has problems. Compromise is part of the answer, but taking it all on yourself is not compromise. (And yeah, Hollie, I think it's goofy to say anyone never argues. There's a Chinese proverb, actually, that healthy couples do argue; it's the silent marriage that's troubled.)

For example, jenny! - that's really not fair of him. I'm not saying throw your bf on the curb, but look at this as a symptom of potentially bigger problems. If he can't listen to your concerns seriously (provided you are being nice about airing them, at least at first) he's not a keeper.

ilovestuff - you get my vote for creativity!

About the vase... It actually kind of freaked me out, but it seems appropriate for this as a personality post.

I use positive re-enforcement with my sweetie. Whenever we're out with friends, I say what a great roommate I have. He boasts about what he's responsible for at home. Then, a longing look at the overflowing laundry basket the next day is usually enough to get things moving.

We're still in talks about the fate of the second living room couch. He feels like its the perfect spot to put his clothes and gym bag. I have other ideas...

Phoenix --- your mom's doing all the cleaning doesn't mean that YOU shouldn't have kids. Right? Just raise them differently than your parents raised you and your brothers. And get your husband on board with doing his share of baby care. It was really depressing to read that you're making such a drastic life choice based on dirt/work. If you don't want kids, fine, but don't blame the dust bunnies.

As long as my lover is clean, the rest can be tolerated to some degree.

Man, everyone has the same problems! After living with my boyfriend and my best male friend for 6 months, I've just started a new law...

I made a list of about 12 chores, every week we do one each. You can't do the same chore as the two previous weeks. The boys gave me a hard time at first, but I had them help decide what chores were roughly equal and they agreed to try it for a bit.

My baby does all the laundry, which is great. My roomie barely knows how to load the dishwasher. It's hard to combine 3 chill (lazy) adults in a 2 bedroom and keep things super clean.

Griffin - true. My point is just that in my house, things that need to be done generally fall on me, rather like lemonadefish said. My husband has made some comments to the effect that he believes having kids would be my responsibility. If I can't rely on him to do half the cleaning, I don't imagine I'm going to get his help with half the child care. That's the stereotypical second shift I want to avoid. Things may change. But right now, no way.